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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
 Posted - May 25 2014 : 12:55:23 PM
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Hi,
I have been doing DM 20 mn twice a day since 7 months. I have added 5 mn of SB few weeks ago. Although I admit that my mind is more quiet during the day and that I am way less emotive than I used to be, I am still far from experiencing the rise of the witness. Also, I do not experience the process of losing the mantra as described by Yogani : sometimes I am not focused on the mantra but I am still repeating it while focusing on other thoughts.
Maybe one could say that 7 months is not long enough... However, I decided some weeks ago to give a try to an alternative meditation method, which is paying attention to the body (a.k.a. body scan or body sweeping). I learnt this from a Barry Long's book (Meditation - A foundation course), and from Eckhart Tolle. You may understand it from these two videos :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45pRlO16Mg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foU1qgOdtwg
I tried this method twice a day during two weeks. During the meditation sessions, my mind became quiet deeper and faster than with AYP DM. Having thought about it, I believe that repeating a mantra forces the mind to be active, while paying attention to something (body or breath) puts the mind really at rest with no thoughts.
I came back to AYP DM after these two weeks to see the difference, and I discovered that during the DM sessions, I was feeling the witness state : I was aware of my mind repeating the mantra, while previously I was repeating the mantra. I had the feeling that I was somewhere behind my mind, watching it repeating the mantra. Unfortunately after few days of DM, this feeling disappeared. So I am wandering whether this method from Barry and Eckhart is not more effective than the AYP one, at least with me. Any relevant comment on that would be appreciated !
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2014 : 6:02:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dofa66
.... I decided some weeks ago to give a try to an alternative meditation method, which is paying attention to the body (a.k.a. body scan or body sweeping). .... from Eckhart Tolle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foU1qgOdtwg
Hi dofa66,
I listened the Tolle video and enjoyed it. At 16:00f Tolle speaks of the "practice" of awareness of the sense of subtle aliveness pervading your entire body, "the inner body," a subtle energy field.
I am familiar with that teaching from Tolle books and other of his videos. In my experience, that teaching in particular is excellent as a sort of cross fertilization with AYP practice and teaching.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2014 : 7:02:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
At 16:00f Tolle speaks of the "practice" of awareness of the sense of subtle aliveness pervading your entire body, "the inner body," a subtle energy field.
I haven't had a chance to check out the video but I have recently found myself doing a practice that sounds similar... As I sit in my daughter's bedroom at night while they fall asleep (they seem more comforted and relaxed when my wife or I sit with them while they drift off) I will allow my attention to (instinctually starting at the feet) rest on "the sense of subtle aliveness" in the body. I would never have thought to use the words Tolle has but that is exactly what it is. If I had to describe it in my own words I would probably have said that I rest my attention on the subtle energy surrounding and pervading the body. I've found that by doing this, the whole body's energy field becomes stimulated and I will eventually find my attention resting at the space a foot or two above the head and falling into a deep meditative state similar to what I used to experience during DM.
Love,
Carson  |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2014 : 2:52:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dofa66
Hi,
I have been doing DM 20 mn twice a day since 7 months. I have added 5 mn of SB few weeks ago. Although I admit that my mind is more quiet during the day and that I am way less emotive than I used to be, I am still far from experiencing the rise of the witness. Also, I do not experience the process of losing the mantra as described by Yogani : sometimes I am not focused on the mantra but I am still repeating it while focusing on other thoughts.Maybe one could say that 7 months is not long enough... However, I decided some weeks ago to give a try to an alternative meditation method, which is paying attention to the body (a.k.a. body scan or body sweeping). I learnt this from a Barry Long's book (Meditation - A foundation course), and from Eckhart Tolle. You may understand it from these two videos :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45pRlO16Mg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foU1qgOdtwg
I tried this method twice a day during two weeks. During the meditation sessions, my mind became quiet deeper and faster than with AYP DM. Having thought about it, I believe that repeating a mantra forces the mind to be active, while paying attention to something (body or breath) puts the mind really at rest with no thoughts.
I came back to AYP DM after these two weeks to see the difference, and I discovered that during the DM sessions, I was feeling the witness state : I was aware of my mind repeating the mantra, while previously I was repeating the mantra. I had the feeling that I was somewhere behind my mind, watching it repeating the mantra. Unfortunately after few days of DM, this feeling disappeared. So I am wandering whether this method from Barry and Eckhart is not more effective than the AYP one, at least with me. Any relevant comment on that would be appreciated !
Hello dofa66,
That portion that I highlighed is something I think we all struggle with at one point. Yogani mentions that problem in one of his lessons. It is not really meditation or DM if you are doing that. I am no expert on the Zen meditation compared to DM. I can say that 7 months is a very short time to expect to experience the Witness. Yogani also has a lesson and forgive me for not taking the time at the moment to find it about saying the mantra and day dreaming at the same time. It is not really meditation if you are doing that. Try to focus on the mantra and not both. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2014 : 5:55:45 PM
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@dofa
the meditation you describe is known under so many different names, I had learned it from Maitreya Ishwara. He calls it "feeling the energy of the body". To my experience and observation it was also the fastest route to 24/7 witnessing, within two weeks actually (at least here repeatedly).
I could observe the same as you did when skipping back to DM or any other practice, that one seemed to be muuch more deeper and after the intense witness state has faded away I also thought about that practice being much better. When the witness arises soo fastly, it seems to be nice in the beginning, but after some time it may bring new problems with it, like intense tiredness, continuous nomind and no breath, depressive states and so on.
A mantra based meditation has two components, one is energetic, the mantra, the other is going into stillness gradually. Both qualities have advantages and disadvantages compared to directly and very fastly going into stillness by awareness based meditations.
In the end one has to check which practice is harmonizing most with ones own lifestyle and or if you are rdy to change your lifestyle. Awarenes based meditations to my observation are good for those not working anymore :) Tolle, Maitreya Ishwara, all of them did not work when they were meditating like that.
Mantra based meditations are more in tune with those who have a working life.
Then there are concentration based meditations, which mostly choose one chakra in the body and remain focused. Concentration based and awarenes based are close, but there is a big difference in adressing the whole body or adressing a spot in it. The former has a very uncontrolled overall effect, while the latter is much more precise and in control. So the ones concentrating on one chakra also did work out better for me regarding daily life with work.
Just some hints and observations for you :)
peace and happy practice! |
Edited by - Holy on May 27 2014 6:44:45 PM |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2014 : 7:02:03 PM
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| Good stuff. Thank you Holy |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2014 : 01:56:15 AM
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Hi Holy,
Thank you so much for this valuable information. Your experience resonates a lot with what I felt, also regarding the working life aspect  . However I am afraid it will be hard to give up from this fast route I discovered and come back to DM... Hard choice !
Thank you Jonesboy also for your post. I know that when thoughts are present together with the mantra, I should favor the mantra, and this is what I do as soon as I realize it. I was just pointing out that I never lose the mantra, and that losing it would be the result of a decision, which is not what we are supposed to do, are we ? |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2014 : 03:24:09 AM
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Hi dofa66
We are all different human beings, so it makes sense to believe that some techniques may work better for you, and other ones may work better for me. So one has to experiment and find out what is best for him or her.
However, I would not consider hat a supefast reaction (whithin some days or weeks) is a good sign. In my own experience, smooth changes over a long time are preferable. |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2014 : 10:36:14 AM
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dofa66,
You are losing it just like Yogani says you will. Anytime the mantra is not the center of your focus then you have lost it. It doesn't have to be a wow why am I thinking about skiing, or work or children and move back to the mantra. That simple little shift off of the mantra with your concentration and then on it, is it!
I would like to thank you for bringing to my attention Yogani's words of observing thoughts for a few minutes before starting the mantra. I have not been doing that. I did not think it was important... wrong again. I have been having some good sits so thank you |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2014 : 11:42:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
However, I would not consider hat a supefast reaction (whithin some days or weeks) is a good sign. In my own experience, smooth changes over a long time are preferable.
Well, the benefit of the two weeks I spent on this 'feeling the energy of the body' technique came after more than 6 months of DM. Who knows what would have been the outcome without these 6 months of DM ahead of it ?
But the other point I tried to highlight in this post is that when reading the DM book and all the lessons and Q&A on AYP, it is often said by Yogani and others that meditating on the mantra should drive the mind to stillness. I found that paying attention to the body (or the body's energy, or even the breath) does drive my mind to stillness, with no thoughts at all, or almost. While repeating the mantra feels like a thought, and leaves me with no so much impressionn of mind stillness.
Jonesboy,
I am happy that this post has brought any valuable information to you. Maybe this other one will do too :
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....=14123#14123 |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2014 : 12:43:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dofa66
Well, the benefit of the two weeks I spent on this 'feeling the energy of the body' technique came after more than 6 months of DM. Who knows what would have been the outcome without these 6 months of DM ahead of it ?
Hi dofa66 and All:
This is an important point. Deep meditation brings abiding inner silence and the witness quality, which provides the opportunity to engage in relational self-inquiry, "awareness watching..." and related techniques with more effectiveness. Then we might think that we don't need DM anymore, because these other methods seem to be working so well. But are they progressive for the long term, or are they just riding on the coattails of the DM we did and are no longer doing? That is the question the practitioner has to answer with each new experiment.
Regarding use of the mantra in deep meditation, it is an easy favoring, not a laser focus to the exclusion of everything else. When we realize we are not favoring the mantra, that means we have lost it, which is normal. So we just come back and easily favor it again at whatever level we are at, regardless of whatever else may be happening in the mind. If some version of the mantra is rattling on in the background, then we can easily favor that. The rattling does not count as meditation. It is the favoring.
Deep meditation is about what we do with our attention. It is not about any particular content of the mind. The procedure is about easily favoring with our attention. It is very simple. The toughest thing about DM is keeping it simple.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2014 : 2:33:02 PM
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Hi dofa66, thank you for your answer, but I still believe that 2 weeks are just not enhough to say that a practice is better than another. I think that one should practice for a much longer time in order to find relevant long term differences between two meditation techniques. Just my point of view, of course.  |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2014 : 4:33:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
This is an important point. Deep meditation brings abiding inner silence and the witness quality, which provides the opportunity to engage in relational self-inquiry, "awareness watching..." and related techniques with more effectiveness. Then we might think that we don't need DM anymore, because these other methods seem to be working so well. But are they progressive for the long term, or are they just riding on the coattails of the DM we did and are no longer doing? That is the question the practitioner has to answer with each new experiment.
Hi Yogani,
Thank you very much for paying attention to this post. I take your point above. However, I am still confused with the following facts :
- when doing DM during 6 months, I did not experience the witness quality,
- after these 6 months I stopped DM and replaced it by the other meditation technique desribed earlier (not a self inquiry technique) for 2 weeks,
- after these 2 weeks, I switched back to the DM technique and then noticed the witness quality during DM,
- after few days of DM, this witness quality faded away.
So it does not look like DM has bring the witness quality, but the other way around.
Of course I am not trying to criticize DM, which has offered a lot to me so far. I am just wandering which path I should follow now in light of the above facts.
Thanks for your help and advice. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2014 : 12:12:15 AM
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Hi dofa66:
It is your call. I can't speak for non-AYP practices. But I can tell you that abiding inner silence can be subtle and subjective, and only shows itself in relation to objects (and deep sleep), so you are likely going to notice it when doing other awareness-related practices, and as a calming influence during dynamic events, strong emotions, etc. It's presence also becomes apparent when doing samyama. Others may notice stillness in your demeanor before you do. That is quite common.
In any case, a few weeks or months isn't enough time to verify much about any spiritual practice. It takes years to find out what is being accomplished, if anything. So whatever path you choose, it is suggested to look out much further in time for the results you are seeking.
The journey is a marathon, not a sprint. All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2014 : 08:56:56 AM
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So true, so true, Yogani. Just to chime in over the course of sadhana Shakti has reveled many forms of pranayama and each time I thought wow this is the cat's pajamas. "This is the One"
Each and every time without exception after some time had passed I discovered the Kriyas of Kriya to be the very thing I gravitated back to. Kind of like what goes up must come down. My discoveries were great but the ones who went before me and developed the system actually figured it out better than I could have imagined.
That which works best over time revels itself, but only over time. Nothing wrong with the great moments along the way either, discovery is wonderful and all part of it.
The thing that's nice about AYP and having the founders insights over decades of experiential development of his system is that he actually participates like this and brings his perspective of the long haul to the table.
What I find really cool about Yogani's input is that even though I am not an AYP practitioner it is still valid in other systems. |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2014 : 09:49:49 AM
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If I may  ,
I think I have been going about this wrong dofa66. When I did The Presence Process it has a mantra/breath meditation to it. It felt good. What really felt good was after the session resting my awareness in the crown. I would do that for a longer period than the meditation session. I did mention how good it felt didn't I
None of that mattered. It is not how we feel during our sessions that is the yard stick to judge things by. It is how it effects our daily lives. I can tell you the session felt great in TPP but AYP and DM has made my life a lot better.
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adishivayogi
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2014 : 06:47:05 AM
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| I like listening to omkar looking up to bhrum. Or mental kriya. |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2014 : 5:12:32 PM
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| As an older person who has practiced meditation regularly for over 40 years, I'd like to verify Yogani's advice that this is not a sprint, but a marathon. Two weeks, or two months, or two years is all just a bare introduction, the mere surface of where this all goes and what it does for and to us over time--LONG time, decades. Patience is so important, we do not look for instant results, but for long term, gradual and lasting changes, often very subtle, in our perceptions, emotions, thinking and behaviors. Throwing many changes too quickly into the mix confuses things and weakens our devotion to practice. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2014 : 04:18:00 AM
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Hi mikkiji,
Thank you for sharing your valuable experience, which I am nowhere close to of course ! Unfortunately for me, I started meditation relatively late (i.e. at 47  ). I guess you'll say it's never too late... However, since I have started, I read many books from well known gurus about self inquiry, illumination, etc... What confuses me is that I have heard two different advices:
- the first one consists in practicing meditation regularly and states that progress will come over time, surely very slowly as you are witnessing,
- the second one states that we are already perfect, that the truth is here and now (although most of the people can't see it), and that the concept of 'progress' is absolutely opposite to the truth and is a trick from the ego who wants to achieve something better in the future.
Anyone to comment on this contradiction ? |
Edited by - dofa66 on Jun 15 2014 05:29:08 AM |
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2014 : 06:09:35 AM
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I do not see the contradiction...
True progress is not something that will boost your ego, and it will come in due time, if you follow the easy procedure of meditation.
First sentence says you will come to see it slowly, after some time, and the second reassures you that you do not have to grasp for it, you can just relax and meditate . |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2014 : 06:11:58 AM
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Hi dofa66, why call it a contradiction? Maybe all we need is already there inside of us, just hidden under many layers. So we do not need to add anything - we need to get rid of those layers, which requires a lot of work.
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Ayiram
88 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2014 : 06:17:25 AM
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Hi dofa,
I recommend this lesson:
http://www.aypsite.org/348.html
There is no contradiciton actually; a regular meditation practice helps you clean your inner windows to be able to see your inner perfection. that´s all. yes, there´s nowhere to go and nothing to do...everything is perfect already under those layers of mud on our inner eyes.
... and it´s never too late to start practicing meditation
Wishing you all the best!
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Ayiram
88 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2014 : 06:18:59 AM
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| ha, ha... it seems there are three of us whose posts crossed |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2014 : 09:16:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayiram
Hi dofa,
I recommend this lesson:
http://www.aypsite.org/348.html
Thank you so much Ayiram for this one I hadn't read yet !
Strangely my first writing was "Anyone to comment on this paradox ?" instead of "Anyone to comment on this contradiction ?"
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Edited by - dofa66 on Jun 22 2014 4:19:38 PM |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2014 : 4:34:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
If some version of the mantra is rattling on in the background, then we can easily favor that. The rattling does not count as meditation. It is the favoring.
Deep meditation is about what we do with our attention. It is not about any particular content of the mind. The procedure is about easily favoring with our attention. It is very simple. The toughest thing about DM is keeping it simple.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
Hi Yogani,
I have read this part of your answer again, and I would like to get a clarification: if meditation is the favoring action only, then what is the difference between favoring the AYAM mantra or favoring our attention on anything else (e.g. the breath, the body, etc...) ? Also how does it fit with the rationale given in the AYP lessons for the enhanced mantra options ? I guess there is something I did not catch correctly in your answer... 
Thank you for your help. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2014 : 11:37:33 PM
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Hi dofa66:
We favor the mantra with attention, not anything else we might feel like favoring. Favoring with attention is the procedure, and the mantra is the object/vehicle for refining awareness with known effects. I said that meditation is about what we do with attention because some may have the idea that having the mantra going on in the background while deliberately favoring the grocery list with our attention is meditation. It is not. Not AYP deep meditation anyway.
If we are doing some other style of meditation, like on breath, then breath is the object. We easily favor the same object in every meditation session until we make an informed change after months or years, such as for a mantra enhancement. Or in the case of over sensitivity to mantra meditation we may meditate on breath only. See Lesson 367 on that.
It is not complicated. The procedure of favoring with attention is simple and the object we use (mantra) is the same one we use in every meditation session. Together, these take us to very refined levels of awareness in stillness. Consistency day-in-and-day-out and year-in-and-year-out in our sessions is the key. It is like brushing teeth every day. We just do it and go out and live fully in-between our sessions. This naturally stabilizes abiding inner silence in our life. The less analysis the better.
The guru is in you.
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Better method than DM ?
