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willie
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 01 2014 : 6:24:14 PM
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Hi. I started AYP a couple of years ago then a lot of things got in the way but I'd like to go back to meditation again. There's a question I have though. Is AYP similar ( or the same ) as the Mindful Meditation I keep hearing about.
Sorry for such a basic question and it will no doubt show my ignorance on the matter but I'd be grateful if someone could help me understand the difference if any.
Thank you
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Edited by - AYPforum on Mar 07 2014 5:56:22 PM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2014 : 5:56:22 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2014 : 6:32:55 PM
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Hi willie,
There certainly are many similarities, but I wouldn't say mindful meditation and DM are the same.
There's many forms of practicing mindful meditation, so it will depend on your specific practice what the similarities and differences with AYP are.
The DM procedure is quite simple: Easily favouring the mantra whatever thoughts, emotions, body movements, visions, and other "stuff" may arise.
Per my understanding, in general mindful meditation consists in observing whathever is (and to some extent becoming more insightful about the way mind and body work).
It may or may not use a specific object of meditation such as the breath. Usually not a mantra. The objects of meditation may also be all the things (thoughts, emotions etc.) that are not given particular attention to in DM.
Mindfulness Meditation can be practiced formally (in meditation posture) and is often practiced consciously during daily activities (while walking, eating, etc.). DM in AYP is only practiced formally, while sitting with straight spine normally. Only if this is physically not possible, another still position can be chosen.
Both DM and Mindful Meditation will emphasize not getting caught up in whatever arises. In DM it is achieved by easily favouring something else (the mantra), bringing inner silence.
In Mindful Meditation it may be achieved either by returning to a specific object of meditation (eg. the breath) or by conscious and dispassionate observation of what occurs. This brings detachment and insight when practiced this way.
During the process of continuous practice, inner silence brings ingight also, while insight brings silence; so both techniques have many similar effects. It is particularly found amongst DM practitioners that they find themselves more aware of subtleties during daily activities and interactions; while mindful meditators will often report they feel more peaceful and calm (cfr. inner silence).
Just my limited perspective on these two meditation styles.
Hope this helps..
Best wishes with your practice! |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 10:38:26 AM
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Namaste willie,
If by "mindful meditation", do you refer to Vipassana meditation or one of the contemporary methodologies, re-packaging the ancient science for the 21st century? Mindfulness meditation is beautiful. This time-honored Theravada Buddhist method yields positive results, as is clearly shown by it's many devoted adherents. Chan/Seon/Zen meditation is also quite similar in this regard, although there are some subtle differences in flavor and approach.
And I can see how you might feel that mantra repetition is a thoroughly mindful practice, as it can be and at it's very heart, surely is. Call it taming the wild nature of the human thought-process or even a journey of conscious awakening... is it then the polishing of the lens of perception or the cessation of the ideas viewed by said lens... which is the kernel of mindfulness training? In my experience, it is really both, as each creates a shift in our conscious-awareness.
But just what is mindfulness? Is Mind itself, a process of thought-transduction and identification of this and that, occurring in the duality of the observer and the observed? A continuum of conceptual dialectics, housed within our most cherished ideologies? Of course it is, as all occurs in our identification with our own unique sensory input, our labeling and stratification of this and that... and our spontaneous human feelings. But we are behooved to honor this dynamic and choose exactly how we dance with it's diverse qualities and the force of it's creativity.
But Mind as a field of being, is also the very patterns and fibers weaving the fabric of existential being (well, at least for we human beings it is). Universal Mind is the pinnacle of the frequency of all this mind-stuff and the practice of mindfulness is an avenue to achieve said state of awareness. We really need to strip-away the labels and see the unity inherent in all systems and paths towards conscious spiritual union, if we are to shift our attention to the spiritual planes and the higher spheres of existential reality. This essentially stops the mind from wandering and imagining this or that. In such a fulcrum of concentration, thoughtlessness yields a lovely pause in our routine conceptualizations and rationalizations. I feel that this leads one to that special inner silence, which when merged within, expands our perception to an exponential degree.
Ultimately and ideally, we are drawn through our transfixed concentration, to move beyond the parameters of the mind and it's domain. All schools of mindful meditation hold the state of No-mind as the cherished destination of our sitting or moving practice (in a destinationless play of flowing energy). This opens the portal to true perception. 
Without thought-fluctuation, we discover concentration. Through concentration we discover the infinite realm of soulfulness. this shifts or attention to the meditative state and we are wholly undone as individuals, yet, we are reborn as unified aspects of the Divine Spiritus.
So, whether we use the breath, the mantra or focus upon the inner sounds and visions experienced in deepest meditation... it is only when the mind is wholly stilled, that one can perceive that state which is unborn and undying (as the Zen folks say). Whichever path you tread, the roads lead to God-realization,even if we do not conceive of duality in any form (as ultimately, Brahman has no form or substance). May an unmoving peace bloom joyously within you and an effulgence of spiritual light be awakened in your mind, as you discover your own true nature, through the miracle of meditation. 
Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2014 : 8:52:35 PM
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Willie,
Govinda killed it with his response.
I will add that in AYP, the first order of the day is Samatha meditation. The DM routine promotes realization of inner silence.
Once inner silence is accessible, vipasyana meditation, of which mindfulness is one form, becomes very effective. Self inquiry is another form of vipasyana meditation. These are meditations using the mind, rather than forms of concentration, therefore it is easier to get caught up in a wandering mind or tricks of the mind. Given this, its considered a more advanced practice than DM.
I'd encourage you to begin with DM, and start adding mindfulness (smrti.. Remembering who you are, being aware from a high perspective) and self inquiry (questioning the 'self', who am I?, etc) throughout the day as you see fit. |
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willie
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2014 : 6:20:44 PM
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Thank you all so much for your detailed and helpful guidance. I really appreciate it. I don't know much about meditation terms and I am just starting out on the path again. It seems I should maybe not worry too much about the technical aspects and go with it.
I have unfortunately had a setback with my practice and that is tinnitus. It is really bad after starting to meditate. I recall that I stopped the last time for the same reason. The ringing just got unbearable for me after a while. A few months without mediation, and it was pretty much in the background of my life where I could ignore it. I actually wondered at the time if the two were related but then I decided it was a prescribed drug I had been taking at the time.
Anyway I forgot all about it and though the tinnitus never really left me it was something I could ignore. However now it is back again so I'm forced to the conclusion that this is linked to my practice.
I have tried meditation with some noise in the background via a machine I use to help me to mask the tinnitus while I go to sleep but I don't think the ringing is going away. I am guessing the meditation is making me very sensitive to it and the constant ringing is driving me mad.
I am reluctantly having to face stopping meditation again. I am saddened by this because I have found the benefits to be really obvious, even in the early stage I am at. |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 12:51:25 AM
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Hi willie,
quote:
Originally posted by willie
I have unfortunately had a setback with my practice and that is tinnitus. It is really bad after starting to meditate. I recall that I stopped the last time for the same reason. The ringing just got unbearable for me after a while. A few months without mediation, and it was pretty much in the background of my life where I could ignore it. I actually wondered at the time if the two were related but then I decided it was a prescribed drug I had been taking at the time.
Sorry to hear about this ongoing struggle with tinnitus.
You're not alone with this. Quite a few have experienced similar sensations in the ear at one point or another to a more or less extent.
I've had it too; backed off a little from practices and focusing too much there and it passed. It came back at times and passed again.
Some meditators even use it as the object of their meditation as it's constantly with them...
Have you read these topics?
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=8442
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2920
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1791
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=8727
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3048
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3556
Here and there some potential solutions are offered. Maybe they work for you too.
There's even more on this topic in this forum if you want.. you can find by typing tinnitus in the Search on the top right corner of this forum..
Hope you find relief..
Best,
Omsat
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willie
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2014 : 7:25:20 PM
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Thank you Omsat. I know I'm not alone in this issue. It is truly maddening and I don't know what to do about it at the moment. I really do want to continue with my practice but the tinnitus .....
I will read through these posts carefully and try to resolve the issue before abandoning my practice.
Thanks so much for your help :) |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 01:17:58 AM
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You're welcome, willie
Hope you find relief..
Let us know..
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 11:25:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by willie
Thank you Omsat. I know I'm not alone in this issue. It is truly maddening and I don't know what to do about it at the moment. I really do want to continue with my practice but the tinnitus .....
I will read through these posts carefully and try to resolve the issue before abandoning my practice.
Thanks so much for your help :)
Hi willie,
I didn't read through the links on tinnitus, but I wanted to let you know that Ayurveda offers remedies. I believe it's considered a vata disorder. I would look into it. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2014 : 10:28:04 PM
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Hi willie,
when the sound increases with spiritual practices, then friend this is not a disorder at all, it is you getting more sensitive to the subtle sounds. And life is made out of sound friend :P People are practicing really hard to hear something, also known as nada yoga.
Listening to ever refined sounds lead to the source of all sounds, OM. Listening to OM brings you to its source aka the source ;)
Docs have no idea about subtle anatomy, the sound is pure grace, the source giving you the hint, hey hear connect with me most directly! Listen to me, I have something for you! And you say, nono, please go to the backround, I do not want to hear what you have to say :P Why not? Perhaps there is somethign very nice for you waiting ;)
Peace and love friend,
the sound is your vip door :D |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2014 : 01:03:16 AM
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Dearest wllie,
Holy is spot on, the high-pitched ringing is something Yogis, Sufis, Buddhists and Sikhs have earnestly sought for millenniums (often times, with disappointing results). Consider it more of a blessing than a curse. How ironic that so many meditators on the Path see this effect, the audible presence of the Sound Current, as a problem or deterrent!
Life itself is a symphony of sounds and the higher, more ethereal frequencies, do indeed resemble the effects of tinnitus... but somewhat more like cosmic crickets chirping at high-speed or even more so, like millions of tiny brass bells, endlessly jingling. I am reminded of Edgar Allan Poe's haunting poem, The Bells. Am I being just plain silly, as the ringing did actually drive poor Edgar over the edge, perhaps a wee bit too far? 
This may seem a malady or a type of imbalance but it is indicative of advancement with one's capacity to concentrate and shift the very parameters of our normal range of conscious-awareness. However, to devoted practitioners of Nada Yoga and Surat Shabd Yoga, this is a very positive sign and an avenue to follow the tonal frequency to it's very source, the higher-range scintillation of the Divine HU pitch and the Eternal buzz of the AUM vibration.
In my own humble experiences, the incessant ringing draws our attention to an unwavering focus of sheer intent. And if used for deeper exploration, the ringing ascends to a finer shimmering tone (likened to Krishna's celestial flute).
By harnessing our focus and immersing ourselves in such a vortexial trance state, wherein the bridge from the noisiness of the tinnitus-like buzzing, lifts our attention to exponentially subtler and more spiritual realms... thus, we become immersed within the fulcrum of the tone. This gradually transcends the ordinary material auditory ranges, by incremental degrees and eventually merges within the motor-like hum of OM/AUM.
Naturally, this becomes a clear pathway to the Infinite Silence of the Indivisible Godhead. After all, when we traverse to the highest frequencies, we merge within the quitude of Divine perfection. It's all good.
Hari Om Tat Sat
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Edited by - Govinda on Mar 12 2014 01:32:39 AM |
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JonnyQuest
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2014 : 11:08:48 AM
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Hi Willie,
Thanks to Holy and Govinda for shedding some light on this oft-misunderstood "Tinnitus" that 'coincidentally' seems to affect so many yoga practitioners and is viewed mistakenly as a "malady" as opposed to a blessing and sign of true "progress".
A copy of Yogani's discussion on the topic follows down below, at the bottom of this post. Congratulations on having this happen ! It is not a bad thing, oh no.
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
Hi willie,
when the sound increases with spiritual practices, then friend this is not a disorder at all, it is you getting more sensitive to the subtle sounds. And life is made out of sound friend :P People are practicing really hard to hear something, also known as nada yoga.
Listening to ever refined sounds lead to the source of all sounds, OM. Listening to OM brings you to its source aka the source ;)
Docs have no idea about subtle anatomy, the sound is pure grace, the source giving you the hint, hey hear connect with me most directly! Listen to me, I have something for you! And you say, nono, please go to the backround, I do not want to hear what you have to say :P Why not? Perhaps there is somethign very nice for you waiting ;)
Peace and love friend,
the sound is your vip door :D
[quote]Originally posted by Govinda
Dearest willie,
Holy is spot on, the high-pitched ringing is something Yogis, Sufis, Buddhists and Sikhs have earnestly sought for millenniums (often times, with disappointing results). Consider it more of a blessing than a curse. How ironic that so many meditators on the Path see this effect, the audible presence of the Sound Current, as a problem or deterrent!
This may seem a malady or a type of imbalance but it is indicative of advancement with one's capacity to concentrate and shift the very parameters of our normal range of conscious-awareness. However, to devoted practitioners of Nada Yoga and Surat Shabd Yoga, this is a very positive sign and an avenue to follow the tonal frequency to it's very source, the higher-range scintillation of the Divine HU pitch and the Eternal buzz of the AUM vibration.
Finally, Here is What Yogani has to say about the subject (Tantra, pg 95):
"Mathematically, the Sri Yantra recreates the
wave pattern formed by the vibration of OM, the
sacred sound that is found humming naturally within
the human nervous system as purification and
opening occurs. OM emanates up through the medulla
oblongata, the brain stem, forward through the center
of the head, and out the third eye. OM is no small,
quaint thing that happens inside us. It is roaring
devastating ecstasy breaking loose inside us, and is
synonymous with the highest stages of tantric sexual
cultivation. OM is kundalini in full ecstatic swing. So
here we find the link between Sri Vidya, the Sri
Yantra and tantric sexual practices.
How is one to use the Sri Yantra, if at all? Some
traditions use it as an object of formal meditation. In
the AYP approach to practices we do not. When OM
comes, the Sri Yantra will be there in us. We become
the Sri Yantra when we naturally manifest the ecstatic
vibration of OM, which is the sound of shakti
ravishing her shiva within us. As this occurs
throughout our whole body, we become the Sri
Yantra itself. The Sri Yantra is a representation of our
nervous system in its highest mode of spiritual
reverie. |
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willie
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2014 : 8:37:14 PM
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Hi.
I'm grateful to you all for devoting so much time and effort in answering my question. I will be honest though, and say I don't really understand what you mean. I don't know enough about meditation or the terminology to grasp a lot of the points you are making.
Please understand I'm not ungrateful for your help and I'm not being argumentative either but I'm genuinely confused about this.
The tinnitus isn't just when I meditate. It's with me all the time and I don't find it easy to live with so I find it hard to count it as a blessing.
Also, although I did medicate for a few months about 3 years ago, I have only been meditating again for 3 or so weeks so I'm not by any means experienced or spiritually knowledgeable. Surely this isn't something that would happen so quickly and to someone without significant spiritual progression?
As I say I hope you will take my confusion not as an argument but as confusion.
Even though I don't understand much, I am most grateful for the kindness in your replies |
Edited by - willie on Mar 12 2014 8:59:12 PM |
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AYP and Mindful Meditation
