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kami
USA
921 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 27 2014 : 10:23:20 AM
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A bit ago, I was cooking while my children sat at the kitchen table working on their homework. As usual, they began bickering about something, and I heard one of them say, "No, this is mine. I have had it for months.."
The following arose as a jovial conversation between the younger child and me:
Me: "Are you sure it is yours?"
Her: "Yes."
Me: "What makes it yours?"
Her: "Because as I said (with a look of 'poor dumb Mommy'), I have had it for months. Besides, because I say so."
Me: "Hmmm.. so it belongs to you."
Her: "You're not listening mom. Yes, it does."
Me: "To whom?"
Her: "Me."
Me: "Ok, where is this me that has this?"
Her: "Right here in this chair."
Me: "Where in the chair?"
Her: "In my body."
Me: "Where in that body?"
Her (thinking a bit): "In my brain."
Me: "So if I cut open your brain, I'll find you? Remember the pictures of brains you've seen? By looking at those pictures, can you tell who they belong to? Was the person in the brain?"
Her: "Ahh, no. In the heart then."
Me: "I show you live pictures of hearts all the time. Is the person ever in the heart?"
While the above was transpiring between this younger child (age 9) and me, the older one (age 11) sat quietly listening. At this point, her eyes widened with absolute disbelief and recognition. The following is the conversation with her:
Her: "Gosh, mommy! I'm not in my body at all!!"
Me: "Where are you then?"
Her: "Must be in my mind!"
Me: "Where is this mind then?"
Her: "In my brain."
Me: "In those pictures you've seen of brains, is there a part called mind?"
Her: "No.. So, am in my feelings?"
Me: "Do your feelings come and go?"
Her: "Yes.. Ahh.. so I cannot be in my feelings because I am here even when the feeling goes away.. Tell me then mom. Where am I??"
Me (big smile): "Sorry, can't do. You have to find out for yourself."
At this point, I just laughed and changed the topic. A few days later, I was driving the older child back late at night from an activity.. After several minutes of silence, she began:
Her: "Mommy, can we play the where am I game again?"
Me (taking several minutes to figure out what she was talking about): "Sure."
Her: "So, I am not in my body, mind or feelings. But I know I'm here. Where am I then?"
Me: "You tell me."
Her: "Why am I not my thoughts again?"
Me: "Do you know you are thinking?"
Her: "Yes. Always."
Me: "So are there two of you then? The one that thinks and the one that knows?"
Her (momentary disbelief again): "Gosh! No. I am the one that knows. Because even when thoughts don't come, I know there are no thoughts."
Me (heart bursting with joy): "Yes!"
Her: "When did you figure this out mom?"
Me: "Not until recently."
Her: "Does everyone figure out that they are not in their body or mind?"
Me: "Eventually."
Her: "If I am not in my feelings, that is amazing. I don't have to worry about being sad."
Me: "Exactly!"
After several moments of pregnant silence,
Me: "The most important question you can ask is who you are. And the first step is to ask where you are. Nothing else you achieve in life will come close to knowing who you are."
Her: "This is so cool, mommy. Can we play this game every time we are alone?"
Me: "Yes. Any time you want to."
Just like that! And it took me a few decades to get this even intellectually.. My children - my greatest teachers. 
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2014 : 11:41:15 AM
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| Inspiring |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2014 : 12:52:41 PM
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I love that
I bet they would like the Loving What Is game also :) |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2014 : 9:55:32 PM
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| Wonderful!!! |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2014 : 9:59:15 PM
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That is radical. Training young Jedis in the art of self-inquiry. Bravo.  |
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NoDogma
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2014 : 10:04:50 PM
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OK. the kids have through enough already :-)
Now, who am I ?
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2014 : 11:13:18 PM
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2014 : 01:15:18 AM
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Thanks all. 
NoDogma: Sorry can't do. You have to find out for yourself.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2014 : 04:41:48 AM
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lovely |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2014 : 1:58:33 PM
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| Haha that's awesome. |
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Chaz
USA
129 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2014 : 2:21:07 PM
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Very cool! I'll have to try this game out with my nephews one day. Thanks for sharing. |
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Vimala
France
80 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2014 : 2:46:17 PM
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| Cool!! |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2014 : 8:18:59 PM
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| Beautiful |
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KellyN
75 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2014 : 10:42:40 PM
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| thank you for that! |
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karmic
India
19 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2014 : 01:24:33 AM
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| That was wonderful :) |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2014 : 12:52:26 PM
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| I bet they would like the "Loving What Is" game also. I am so happy for you |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2014 : 10:24:52 PM
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Hi kami & all,
I played the "Where am I?" game yesterday.
The person I played with interpreted I as "the individual Soul".
We could not locate the individual Soul, but it seems there is a connection with the body-mind complex. It seems there is something individual that is responsible for the body-mind complex. How could kami practice asanas and meditation for omsat?
When the questions "Where am I? is asked, are we not referring to this individual Self that we know as kami or omsat?
Whatever that individual Self may be, it seems unlikely to be tangibly locatable (though we may read sometimes it is located in the heart area or connected to the pineal gland; it seems here that these are more special focus points that bring increased awareness of the Self rather than being Its encapsulating home).
I think we have moved beyond the "Where am I" question to some extent (we could not conclude in the body/mind); only "I don't know"; yet we could not break free from a unique body-mind connection.
How would you go about self-inquiring with this interpretation of I?
Thanks for input,
omsat
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Chaz
USA
129 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2014 : 11:09:25 PM
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Omsat, not sure if this helps but it could be something worth thinking about during enquiry. The individual Self is beyond body-mind, though these two expressions validate it's individual existence. However the individual Self could be described as consciousness of consciousness, awareness of awareness, or I am aware that "I" exist. Source itself can be likened to pure existence, pure intelligent consciousness/awareness. This could be why when consciousness is turned in on itself and explored deeper there is a complete loss of any sense of separation/individuality. I could be completely off here but I felt it might be worth offering, just as food for thought.
Another interesting concept is that the individual soul is encased in 3 bodies; physical, astral, causal. Once all 3 of these bodies have been transcended and dropped, the individual Self merges completely with the unbounded Cosmic Source, becoming Everlasting Life itself. I just read about this today in Autobiography of a Yogi. So maybe you are right about the individual Self and the body-mind connection. Again I'm making no scientific or exact claims here, just offering some philosophy for food for thought. And if I'm completely off and this is of no help, well then sorry bout it.
And hey, when it comes to asking "where am I" I like to use the wisdom of Yogananda to help answer it for me; "Center everywHERE, circumference NOWhere."  I personally love this answer and in personal context find it more true for me than any specific locations. Even when awareness of body is lost in sleep or trance or whatever, wherever "I" go, there "I" am. Hope that makes some sense intuitively and I'm not just rambling. 
Much Love,
Chaz |
Edited by - Chaz on Mar 02 2014 11:30:39 PM |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2014 : 12:36:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Omsat
The person I played with interpreted I as "the individual Soul".
We could not locate the individual Soul, but it seems there is a connection with the body-mind complex. It seems there is something individual that is responsible for the body-mind complex. How could kami practice asanas and meditation for omsat?
When the questions "Where am I? is asked, are we not referring to this individual Self that we know as kami or omsat?
Whatever that individual Self may be, it seems unlikely to be tangibly locatable (though we may read sometimes it is located in the heart area or connected to the pineal gland; it seems here that these are more special focus points that bring increased awareness of the Self rather than being Its encapsulating home).
I think we have moved beyond the "Where am I" question to some extent (we could not conclude in the body/mind); only "I don't know"; yet we could not break free from a unique body-mind connection.
How would you go about self-inquiring with this interpretation of I?
Hi Omsat,
That is awesome!
In answer to your question, the following is how this line of inquiry has happened here.
1. To see in direct and immediate experience that "I" cannot be found any "where". This is a breakthrough IMHO, since believing I to be the body/mind is the primary erroneous assumption of samsara.
2. If #1 is true, then what am I? In this direct questioning, it helps to find that "I-sense", the subtle sensation of "I" as the separate self that colors the entire cascade of thoughts/actions/emotions, i.e., the root of it all.
3. When the "I-sense" is looked for, it will be seen that it too does not exist any "where" spatially. When continued to inquire into, it will be seen that the I-sense is merely a concept/belief/thought. It arises with thought and dissolves with thought. In the absence of thought, the "I-sense" does not exist. In other words, when resting as silent pure awareness, the I-sense can be seen to arise simultaneously with thought/emotion, and dissolves as the thought passes. Because of the basic misunderstanding that "I" is this body/mind complex, the thoughts/emotions seem to happen to "me". But in direct and immediate experience, the "me" does not exist as a separate entity, other than as a concept/belief.
4. Somewhere between #1-3, there is a sudden seeing that beyond the concept of "me" (I-sense), who I am is not limited to the body or the mind. "It" has no borders, no characteristics (male/female, race, color, good/bad, etc etc). It is not "nothingness", because it is vibrant, aware, intensely full. It is not "in" the here and now. It IS the nowness and hereness. This primal awareness is what I am. The only thing that can be said about who I am is this - I am. Anything said beyond I am is redundant and false, yet another concept.
5. After the initial shock of this discovery, everything that arises is seen to arise in the I am-ness. This body, mind, thoughts, emotions, actions - all arise in me. And not just that. All bodies and minds arise in I am-ness. There is no "here" and "there". It is all "here", whether it is a twitch in my arm or a distant star. It is all only ever happening "in" here/now. Nothing is ever "out" of it.
6. As the inquiry continues, it is seen that everything that arises in I-am is actually "made up of" I am-ness. This is easiest to initially see with our own thoughts/emotions. One moment, there is no thought. The next, the thought occurs, and if simply watched, it dissolves. Where did it come from? Where did it go? What was always there before, during and after that thought? Pure knowing awareness - everything arises from it and dissolves into it. No thought/emotion/experience has any inherent qualities of its own. Any quality given to an experience is yet another (after)thought. Experience without these afterthoughts (or labels) is raw, pure - just "is". A bit of looking will clarify that this "isness" = I am-ness. Thus, not only am I in whom everything occurs, but I am also all of those things that occur.
7. The specific question is why then can I not experience someone else's experience? The way I am working with this question is to inquire into what makes up that someone else. Just as "I" is merely a concept created by upbringing/culture/beliefs/life experiences, so is the "I" of the someone else. That is, all (me and not me/someone else) are concepts. One thought/concept cannot experience another thought/concept. This is why kami cannot do asanas for Omsat. On the other hand, it is not only possible but natural to know another being as oneself, but not as oneself as a "personal self". Oneness is to know that that other person is also only pure alive awareness - unlimited and without attributes. And there is only one of this - not one per person. Thus, as Yogani says, it is seeing, "I am That, you are That, all is That."
8. Knowing my Self to be unlimited, we then return to see that this body/mind is an instrument for expression of It. At least in my ongoing experience, it is as if I had never known this body/mind before - how marvelous it is, every sensation is delighted in even when there may be a tendency to label it. Yesterday for example, I had a splitting headache all day - even while that was happening, it was a fascinating thing. Gosh, this is what a headache feels like, it is so cool! When sadness arises, it is entirely delicious - wow, what an interesting sensation..
Not sure if the above dissertation is helpful at all, dear Omsat.
The most important thing for me at this point on this path is to stick to direct and immediate experience. Having immersed myself in philosophy and "who said what" for years, that is no longer cutting it. What is true in direct experience is the only thing that matters.
If interested in the "direct path" as it is called, I'd recommend checking out books/teachings of Sri Atmananda Krishna Menon, Nisargadatta Maharaj, and Ramana Maharshi. Greg Goode's book "The Direct Path" is an excellent introduction to it. Cannot recommend it enough. Another good book is Galen Sharp's "What Am I?"
Much love.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2014 : 1:15:19 PM
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I think it might be reasonable to say that though the "I/Eye" of Awareness is not confined to the body, It certainly is centered in the body, at least until the body expires. After that, who knows? Until then, you probably won't be able to escape the body (at least not permanently). So, the whole point is to maximize and saturate the body's capability to withstand the flow of eternal, divine essences. With increased saturation of body and mind, the spirit brings more joy, which is, again, the whole point. How much joy can you handle? The only question worth asking. That's why the practice of samyama draws from the infinite reservoir of bliss consciousness and manifests the aforementioned essences.
The game is a dance of discovery and creation. |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2014 : 7:51:31 PM
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Dear Chaz, kami and Bodhi Tree,
Thank you!
@Chaz:
Thanks for the nice post. I read Yogananda's wonderful Autobiography a couple of years ago. May pick it up soon again as you make me realize some passages have slipped my mind :) Love the quote!
@kami:
Thank you dear Kami for such an extensive insightful reply. You've covered so much ground here. As I was reading through the points, questions arose to which I joyfully found a reply to in the later points. I will see how the process happens here, look into the references (thanks for sharing) and use your post itself as a reference! Thanks for starting this thread, sharing the Game
@Bodhi Tree:
Very beautiful perspective. Thank you!
Gratitude for your enriching contributions,
Omsat |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2014 : 8:58:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Yesterday for example, I had a splitting headache all day - even while that was happening, it was a fascinating thing. Gosh, this is what a headache feels like, it is so cool!
Much love.
Interesting synchronicity: While it's very uncommon to have any headache at all for me, I also experienced headache last night, felt intensely at ajna chakra. Cool sensation indeed, though I'm pretty happy experiencing the headache free state now
Much love. |
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The "Where Am I?" Game
