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compassion
90 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 23 2014 : 11:03:03 AM
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I have been working quite diligently on deep meditation, pranayama and samyama as per the books for a couple of weeks now, adding the practises as I have read about them. I have noticed the witness state to emerge strongly and quite consistently on a number of occassions.
The reason for posting today is that I have been reading the Jnana book and losing myself in it a number of times. Sometimes when I am reading, the words of the text are repeating in my mind. And when I stop reading, my mind is silent. When there is only the text in my mind, there is no conscious analysis or critisism of what I am reading.
Other times it is like I am just watching/skimming the text (and I 'read' fast like that)... my mind is blank. I am just not sure if I am really reading it. I certainly don't feel to be analysing it.
Am I wasting my time to read in this state? Or should this state be encouraged at every opportunity? Is the processing and analysing happening on a deeper level? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2014 : 1:02:52 PM
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Its a funny thing because everything is interpreted through the lens of the mind. The witness is unaffected, it just watches. If you look at a tree is there any value in it ? Why is it there? Why should you see it ?
It must have relevance as does the book. The mind doesn't need to analyse or interpret a tree or for that matter a book. Its relevance and perception is entirely personal. Its as if you wrote those words and put the tree there. 
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2014 : 05:01:08 AM
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| Thank you, karl :) |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2014 : 08:13:13 AM
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Hi Compassion,
Does it happen with all books, or just the one? If you "just listen" to music, do you find that you sort of go into the same state?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2014 : 2:26:09 PM
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Hi Compassion,
I can definitley relate. No need to worry about this state you describe. For me, being gentle is the biggest challenge, with my aspirations and thoughts and activities. I can only suggest breathing and being relaxed in attitude. You will find what works best.
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2014 : 03:36:05 AM
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Hi Jeff,
I've only been reading a few books on self inquiry, so it's difficult to answer your first question. The state has arisen numerous times, usually during passive activities. I can also tease it out with some "Who am I?" questionning. So I guess reading about self inquiry hits both nails on the head simulataneously.
As for music, I find the state arising quite spontaneously when listening to classical (e.g. Bach or Mozart).
Hi Anima,
I was going to say that I'm not worried about this state because in it is such calmness and freedom. Yet I still posted to here for some guidance, so there perhaps is some worry. At its root I feel is that how on earth I can trust without the mind's critique and commentary. In this case it is about reading a book... probably not going to be a survival issue. But if I take the same attitude to my upcoming exams, then hypothetically if I were not to process any lectures and books with the mind, can I trust that the exams go well? Or if I fail them is that God's will? Or is disengaging the mind just avoiding responsibility for my life? Again not a survival issue, but it can feel that way..!
Is a balance important? Or is the idea a permanent state of freedom? |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2014 : 07:24:02 AM
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Hi compassion,
When you say you lose yourself in it, what does it mean? Later, can you recall what you read?
There is a difference between reading to learn about something versus reading words that point to deeper truth. If one is "ripe" enough, reading books like Jnana yoga or Liberation by Yogani can give a push off the cliff where the witness briefly dissolves into awareness, and there is loss of subject-object relationship. Not unlike Nirvikalpa samadhi.. Also, that is the real purpose of such books, not to promote retention of what is read.
But that is unlikely to happen if you are reading for an upcoming exam when retention is the primary objective. When reading thus, the subject-object relationship is maintained and strengthened - there is this me that is reading/learning about that. I'd say read your required stuff and see if you can recall the material later..
Actually, not all jnanis sit around in a demented state. Most function superbly well with incredibly sharp memory and recall of learned stuff, even while being totally free.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2014 : 10:07:40 AM
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Hi Compassion,
At those times, you are are relaxed (or residing) in a deeper state of consciousness (mind). Beginning to notice moments of what is often called "clarity of mind". In the reading, you are singularly focusing and everything is starting to drop away.
Good things are definitely happening. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2014 : 10:57:43 AM
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Just came across these words, and I thought they might also be a useful description for you...
Best wishes.
The Third Dzogchen Rinpoche wrote:
"When the mind is still, it rests in the primordial state, when in motion,its manifestations are the play of the mind, and when these two are in balance,there is a state of nonduality. Hence, whatever you do will never be anything other than the play of reality itself. So do not try to prolong states of stillness, block movement, or make these two the same. However the mind may manifest, do not try to repress and reject some experiences or affirm and embrace others. Do not fixate on the mind as being one particular way, for reality itself transcends all discrimination. What has now been pointed out is the wisdom mind of the natural Great Perfection."
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2014 : 06:31:35 AM
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Hi kami,
It might be that I confuse terminology somewhat... perhaps I am talking about a state where the witness is dissolving in awareness? It's like there is nothing but what is seen and heard, everything is clear... unfiltered, brighter... perhaps like seen for the first time, sometimes with great awe and deafening silence... no internal commentary lol. Perhaps if some thoughts come, they can seem distant, or at other times just melt away before they even really get started.
I'm sure I can focus to learn if I choose to, it's just I noticed that the state arose a few times in lectures also. Since posting originally the state seems a bit rarer and more in balance... I am reading faster, 'listening' less, but I think still grasping the most important points. Certainly I agree the point of reading about self-inquiry is not to fill the mind, so I will test with some other literature... though haven't been inspired to read anything non-spiritual for a while :D
Hello jeff,
I agree good things are happening. And actually quite a lot of interesting experiences of late. I'm not sure I understand the first sentence of the quotation, but as far as the rest of it is concerned: I have been trying to manipulate states... I am still learning to let go of these experiences :)
I am curious of what is implied in the last part... I understand it to mean that the Universe is deterministic, which removes free will. I can understand that our destiny is to be reunited with God, but if we remove free will from the bit in the middle then it is easy to do anything and to say it is God's will. Do you, or anyone here for that matter, have any views on this? |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2014 : 09:43:23 AM
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Hi compassion,
That quote in Jeff's post is really all there is to know - as in knowing it to be true in one's own direct experience. Very simple and very profound.
Very nice on the clear and unfiltered reading. Good things are definitely happening.
You asked if anyone had views on free will.. I'd say many people here can write doctoral dissertations on it!
Here are my thoughts on it (short of a dissertation  ). It depends on where you are looking at free will from. From the standpoint of a person (body-mind-intellect, psychosomatic apparatus), it does seem like there is free will. We think we make all these choices on a daily basis, and forget the influence of genetics, upbringing, environmental influence, lessons learned from past experiences (i.e., emotional coloring), moral values imposed by society/family/ourselves, fear of divine retribution, ideas of how a spiritual seeker behaves, etc, all of which go into the choices "I" as this apparatus makes. When I deeply look into any single decision I have made, I can honestly say there was no "free" will. That was merely an apparent free will. But as long as I'm entrenched in the psychosomatic apparatus as this person, sure, there seems to be free will..
Free will brings up the connotations of outcomes of any particular action - are they in our control? Ever? Is it also not true that someone else's actions out of "free will" affects innumerable people in an ever-widening circle, and vice versa? Can I be absolutely sure that my actions born of "free" will will affect only x, y and z and nobody else? If most things are out of my control, where is the "free" will? So many questions that come up short of meaningful explantions, once again, in direct experience..
There is another place to look at things from. From this place, there are no questions, no conflict, no opposing views. And from this place, all is Grace. There is nothing but Grace - divine will at play, masquerading as the free will of the psychosomatic apparatus.
Love to you.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2014 : 10:53:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by compassion
Hello jeff,
I agree good things are happening. And actually quite a lot of interesting experiences of late. I'm not sure I understand the first sentence of the quotation, but as far as the rest of it is concerned: I have been trying to manipulate states... I am still learning to let go of these experiences :)
I am curious of what is implied in the last part... I understand it to mean that the Universe is deterministic, which removes free will. I can understand that our destiny is to be reunited with God, but if we remove free will from the bit in the middle then it is easy to do anything and to say it is God's will. Do you, or anyone here for that matter, have any views on this?
Hi Compassion,
By the last part, I assume that you mean the words "Do not fixate on the mind as being one particular way, for reality itself transcends all discrimination. What has now been pointed out is the wisdom mind of the natural Great Perfection."
In Christian terms, the words would translate into something like... Do not try to artificially create meditative states or experiences, for God is beyond such concepts of "local mind". If one just "resides", one realizes that God is everywhere (as Jesus said about splitting a piece of wood) and the natural state. What has now been pointed out, is what it means to be a "son of God" as John tells about here...
John 1:9-13 (KJV)
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
On your free will question, I agree with Jesus in the words of the Gospel of Thomas...
2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
Ultimately, a "son of God" is a child (or co-creator) of/with God. Free will in terms of the "ability to act" continues until one chooses to rest/cease.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2014 : 01:56:10 AM
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Hi kami,
I appreciate you taking the time to explain your views. I agree that there are contructs of this body/mind that give the illusion of free will. I agree that, for example, we have personalities that make our actions often predictable, which directly contradicts the concept of free will that many people hold.
However, I am inclined to believe that we have a choice at our core: that is to follow our instincts and pleasures or to find a higher meaning and purpose in life. Often pleasure and meaning can overlap, but also often they do not. I am starting to think that those who are searching for meaning and purpose are finding an expression of divine will. As to whether divine will is the same as free will, I suppose depends on whether we identify more with our body-mind or with God.
I'm aware that going deeper it might be found that choosing to live a life of pleasure is divine will also. In which case everything just is divine will. So I guess the deepest question is perhaps if divine will is free?
Hi jeff,
Are not the AYP practises, and those of any path, artificially creating meditative states and experiences? What does artificial mean in this context?
Your last comment inspired a lot of thought, where you wrote "Free will in terms of the "ability to act" continues until one chooses to rest/cease." It is as if our 'free will' is a manifestation of a very limited part of God, which by its nature cannot understand God without letting go of such limits and seeing everything as it is.
I'm somewhat disturbed to imagine just resting and ceasing, though trust in other's experiences seems to suggest that such a path does not lead to in-action or misery! |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2014 : 09:02:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by compassion
Hi jeff,
Are not the AYP practises, and those of any path, artificially creating meditative states and experiences? What does artificial mean in this context?
Your last comment inspired a lot of thought, where you wrote "Free will in terms of the "ability to act" continues until one chooses to rest/cease." It is as if our 'free will' is a manifestation of a very limited part of God, which by its nature cannot understand God without letting go of such limits and seeing everything as it is.
I'm somewhat disturbed to imagine just resting and ceasing, though trust in other's experiences seems to suggest that such a path does not lead to in-action or misery!
Hi Compassion,
In Christian terms, I think the easiest way to describe it as we are all children of God in God. The "goal" is to increase one's clarity by dropping obstructions, issues and fears, which hid our true state as co-creators (children). The greater the clarity, the greater the true free will, even to freedom of acts like Jesus describes with "moving mountains".
Practices can help one let go of issues and fears, leading one to notice the nature (and autopilot responses) of local mind. But, ultimately things like desire for enlightenment, paths and practices are also realized to be the same as those "issues and fears". That mind in it natural state is inherently "clear". This realization in Christian terms is finding your "soul". From that point on, I believe the quotes above are useful to understand.
Finally, the path does not lead to inaction, but there is a broader level of acceptance in "what is", and an integration of my will with thy will, ultimately leading to as Jesus describes... Being one with the Father.
Best regards,
Jeff |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2014 : 10:39:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by compassion
It is as if our 'free will' is a manifestation of a very limited part of God, which by its nature cannot understand God without letting go of such limits and seeing everything as it is.
Hi compassion,
Your absolutely beautiful statement above is testimony to how much clarity and understanding you have on this.
That is exactly the point. You may "think" you have free will. But very practically speaking, in order for you to know the will is "yours" (and not God's), you must know what God's will is. Do you? Who can know this? Therefore, how do you know (directly, practically) that when you "choose" the "higher path", it isn't His will acting through you in that choice in that moment? The only thing that makes you think it is "your" free will is that there is some deliberation in your mind about it - "should I do this or should I do that?" sort of thing. That is what makes you think this whole choosing and acting is "yours". Now, where did the deliberation come from? Was it not from a cascade of events that can be traced back to your first entry into the world? Is it occurring independently of all of it? What is so "free" about it?? Can you see this in your direct, practical experience?
Everybody on the spiritual path talks about surrender. For me personally, it is a losing battle when keeping up the sense of volition. True surrender happens when everything is seen as God's will. There is nothing too small, nothing too banal, nothing too "icky" for His will. God is all there is.
On the spiritual path, it is eventually necessary to examine each of our beliefs directly, and not blindly accept any teaching. When we go back to a teaching having thus inquired, the teaching is seen in a new light, is much more alive, fresh and true.
Much love to you. |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2014 : 10:37:45 PM
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Pure
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2014 : 08:19:35 AM
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Thank you Jeff and kami,
and apologies for the fruitful delay in replying.
In the last week I have felt a loving desire to learn of saints and a curiousity of Christian Mysticism in general. At first I had little understanding of why, except the word 'bhakti' echoing from time to time at the back of my mind. Now I see that there is a certain humility to be found in such people, that has been lacking in myself. I had perhaps only started a few steps in this direction, to realise that I have taken the experience of God as if my own, and somehow I must come to an understanding that awareness and myself are profoundly separate before I can start to acknowledge that I am just a part of awareness, instead of awareness being a part of me.
It is a humbling experience, and certainly one of surrender as you describe.
I came full circle to the practise of Loving-Kindness meditation which I had been doing a lot of at the end of last year. When doing this with a not-so-favourable aquaintance the other day, I was wishing her to be at peace and at ease with herself, and saw her heart glowing and expanding to every corner of the Earth... at which point I 'knew' that we all lived in the same heart, that is the reality we share on a daily basis. It was more of an intellectual realisation, than emotional, though my heart has been profoundly more active than usual. Now I have wonderful moments of seeing everyone, including myself, manifesting as part of the same love.
Love to all |
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karmic
India
19 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2014 : 02:34:04 AM
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Hi All,
It seems more than a coincidence that whenever I have wanted to know anything, I have found myself coming across similar topics/discussions on this forum.
Few days back, I was pondering whether Free Will is just another concept/mental construct. It was nice to hear views of friends here. Personally I also couldn't found why free will has to exist when experiences are happening on their own. This is what that allowed me to arrive at this-
1. Thoughts after any event is analysis which is mind game.
2. Thoughts during any event is illusion/appearance of control.
3. Thoughts before event is..well, just a speculation/ thought.
We find that thoughts are powerless, absolutely. So where is the question of free will?
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2014 : 09:36:15 AM
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Hi Compassion,
Very beautiful description.
If you are interested in learning more about Christian mysticism, the Gospel of Thomas is a great place to start. Also, there are a few of us discussing the Gospel and Christian mysticism in general over on the taobums. Just email me if you would like me to point you to the threads.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2014 : 02:01:34 AM
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Hi karmic,
Thank you for your input on the discussion. Do you think thoughts are the only thing that establishes will? I think it is also possible to act without thought and then to take that action as our own.
I tend to come full circle on this issue regularly. I think my most current thinking is that we easily take divine will as our own, and in terms of what the ego believes that it is, there is indeed free will - though it often exists in a relatively small bubble of control that battles against itself and the universe in trying to assert itself. When the divine nature of our action and existence is realised, then we can see easily that everything was after all divine. It is no longer a bubble, but covers the entirety of time and space. So both camps are right, in my opinion.
Hi Jeff,
I will send you an email. Thank you for the tip about the Gospel of Thomas - I had no idea such texts existed. I'm very interested in anything that might shed a different perspective on Jesus' teachings, since there are parts of other testaments that I struggle to understand as it is. Can you recommend a specific translation/publication?
Best wishes. |
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karmic
India
19 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2014 : 05:41:53 AM
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Hello compassion,
...I think it is also possible to act without thought..
Exactly! doing is not dependent on thinking at all and hence the element of will/volition/control is redundant.
I see your view as a corollary(i.e. in egoic state, divine will is seen as free will) than a diversion. And that brings me to my actual question which is nagging me for last few days- if we can't will/choose, what is the point of making efforts (in spiritual /material world)?
Please share your views on above,
Love |
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2014 : 12:49:23 PM
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Hello karmic,
I don't know the best answer - perhaps others can chime in - but I think your question can be tackled from two angles.
First, if you do nothing for long enough, you might convince yourself that you actually do have free will. It depends how determined you are to do nothing. In this lies the beauty of such an illusion, that either can be true.
Second, I think much of the spiritual journey is about surrendering. As such, not making efforts doesn't sound so bad. But I would argue that, for example, lying in bed all day would require much more effort than helping people, singing, and dancing with joy. The least effort is to follow the heart than to work against it.
This question I am trying to answer myself, so apologies if my answers are not the most thought out as yet :) |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2014 : 2:08:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by compassion
Hi Jeff,
I will send you an email. Thank you for the tip about the Gospel of Thomas - I had no idea such texts existed. I'm very interested in anything that might shed a different perspective on Jesus' teachings, since there are parts of other testaments that I struggle to understand as it is. Can you recommend a specific translation/publication?
Best wishes.
Hi Compassion,
I think it is important to remember that the standards texts in the Holy Bible were basically chosen by the roman emperor in 325 (council of Nicaea). Originally, there had been seven main "churches" with Rome only being one of the seven. Jesus even said there should be no priests (Rabbi or Father) as one should have a direct and personal relationship with the divine...
Matthew 23: 8-12
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Because as Jesus said...
Luke 17: 20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Regarding the translations of the Gospel of Thomas and other early christian texts, the below site has a lot of good informations (and versions).
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html
Best wishes,
Jeff
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compassion
90 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2014 : 04:25:40 AM
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Thank you Jeff,
It is indeed strange that Christianity exists in its current form. But perhaps for some, it can encourage a personal relationship with the divine that would not have existed without.
Thank you also for the link to early christian texts.
Best wishes |
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Reading in witness state
