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Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 15 2014 : 3:22:27 PM
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Have really come to appreciate over the last few years the impressive seductiveness of thinking that what arises in the mind or heart could possibly be wrong somehow or a sign of something that needs to be addressed or fixed. Also, the observation of how resisting any thought, emotional or inner experience, no matter how subtle, would inevitably lead to inner turmoil and thought to share it here again in different words in case anyone else runs into similar pitfalls of the mind.
It was very easy for me for a long time to see anything that arose internally, particularly an unpleasant emotion or thought as a sign of a problem, or something that needed to be purified or fixed. "Oh that felt unpleasant, i'll have to address that error in my thinking later". Or some version of that was often common place thinking for me. If I fell into this sticky trap, it marked the beginning and gave life to "a problem" that I got to "have" in that very moment.
Instead of recognizing that my mind was simply doing its job and telling me the possibilities of the situation, I resisted the message or attempted to flee from it or fight it, and it would always came back eventually and sometimes immediately in a "louder" way to get my attention. This resistance was really a sign of my mind having believed to some extent some possibility it had observed was more than a possibility, it was going to happen or did happen to some extent. It was the beginning of the end of peaceful living really. When emotions arose, if I resisted them, they could take on a louder more urgent form that could seem incredibly disturbing, that is until they were really heard and understood. I want the emotion that arises no matter how painful, it is the medicine of life.
My mind could never know the absolute truth, because nothing is absolutely true, everything the mind observes was at best a good guess for a finite period of time; sh*t changes. The futility of resisting any experience became obvious, it was all part of what I was, why would I resist my natural design and function, it made no sense. Knowing this was not enough, it had to be lived again and again and again and again, indefinitely surrendering to all that is in every moment and really "listening" to what life was trying to communicate. Not listening for words, but to the message of the experience. And saying yes to every moment (including my no's), what greater wisdom is there than what life brings to you to live through? |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2014 : 09:49:56 AM
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Thank you for sharing Anthem.
Life is already allowing (not resisting) in every timeless moment, isn't it? It is only whether there is gunk covering up that allowing, in the form of mind (memory of the past + projection into the future, expectations of outcomes, etc) and associated emotional baggage. Underneath all this, including the resistance, allowing is continuously already happening. Just a matter of recognizing this experientially.. Opens us up to the infinite possibilities in every moment, not knowing what will happen next. Delightfully mysterious. 
Two cents.
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pkj
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2014 : 10:16:14 AM
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Totally Agree with Kami. Surrendering every moment and letting go is the key.
Thanks Anthem for sharing.
PKJ |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2014 : 11:40:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Thank you for sharing Anthem.
Life is already allowing (not resisting) in every timeless moment, isn't it? It is only whether there is gunk covering up that allowing, in the form of mind (memory of the past + projection into the future, expectations of outcomes, etc) and associated emotional baggage. Underneath all this, including the resistance, allowing is continuously already happening. Just a matter of recognizing this experientially.. Opens us up to the infinite possibilities in every moment, not knowing what will happen next. Delightfully mysterious.
Two cents.
Love.
Hi Kami,
Thanks for your two cents. :)
Yes of course, life does what it does, but with how much resistance do we flow with that?
Gunk is really the key word, what do you consider gunk? I don't see anything that comes up internally as outside that flow of life. Emotional reaction = vital information about the natural flow of the world/life or my reaction to it. I don't see gunk as obscuring anything, beingness is always there and gunk arises, the only thing that can be obscured is a particular feeling and why is that a problem?
So stuff arises from the past or about the future, why does there need to be resistance to that? If we see it as gunk, sure as day there is resistance on some level. Why can't there be complete acceptance/ surrender to it? It is all part of the flow of life and happening whether we resist or not including the arisings of the past and future. It isn't obscuring any natural perception or benign feeling that ought to be there instead. That thinking is the beginning of favoring one thing over another and then we cling when "good" feelings come along and avoid or resist when not so pleasant feelings come along which can start a few challenges to say the least. A tug of war against the self.
What comes up should be there gunk and all, feeling it is as valid as feeling anything else. I personally wouldn't choose to feel anything other than what life is presenting even if it is emotionally unpleasant of challenging to experience in order to pursue bliss or any other so called pleasant feeling instead. There is valuable gold to be mined in the moment of pain for our beingness and ability to navigate life smoothly and efficiently. Wouldn't trade that in for a mountain of bliss.
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2014 : 12:35:33 PM
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Hi Anthem,
Thanks for clarifying.
Everything that is a "response" to what is happening in terms of thought/emotion/personality "stuff" is gunk. Not just the unpleasant, but also the pleasant. See, even there, there is already a judgment.
So, Life happens. And if I go along with Life, simply being, there is no resistance. So what causes the resistance? Invariably mind-made stuff, the habitual "wanting to manipulate every experience" stuff. How? By attaching labels, judgments, comparisons, expectations, wishing it were otherwise etc. And where do they all come from? Derivation from the dead past or projection into the unknown future, closely linked to the concept of "me" versus "not me". Even in spirituality (probably more so) - every practice is actually a manipulation of what is. The constant seeking of bliss, or some other exalted experience, the next high, the next level of this or that. We essentially do anything but not resist what is. But the paradox is that practices lead one to eventually see through it all. Until then, practices have not done their real job. Only recently have I realized that I have absolutely no desire to be a good meditator or a "spiritual" person. I just want to be free. Free of what? All the gunk of continuous resistance. And simply allow what is already arising. And that cannot happen until one stops "doing" and starts "being". As long as we are "doing" something, including "surrendering", it is resistance.
Surrender - who is surrendering and to what? Isn't is already happening in Life? Whatever arises, arises because it is already allowed. Already loved - gunk included. Do you see surrendering to also be a subtle resistance? When I simply notice the gunk coming up in response to Life, it is already being surrendered. "I" don't need to do a thing "to" surrender. And all the gunk is perfectly valid - for it is being allowed by Life already, isn't it? So, the only real practice in Being is to be. To see that it is all passing through anyway, whether I resist it or not, whether I surrender or not. There is great freedom in this. And I completely agree with you - I wouldn't trade this living (rather, being lived), this type of saying yes to Life for a mountain of bliss.
Love you and the incredible wisdom and inquiry you bring to these forums. |
Edited by - kami on Feb 17 2014 12:42:59 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2014 : 9:57:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Hi Anthem,
Thanks for clarifying.
Everything that is a "response" to what is happening in terms of thought/emotion/personality "stuff" is gunk. Not just the unpleasant, but also the pleasant. See, even there, there is already a judgment.
Not sure if we are talking about the same thing here. Getting wordy like this can be mind-numbing, but I will plod on. I am understanding, from what I am reading in your post (maybe incorrectly) that you are seeing everything that arises as gunk. I am simply saying, I wouldn't personally put that label (or any label) on anything in a concrete way. To me, that label gunk suggests problematic, or something unwanted. Yes pleasant and unpleasant are all just relative labels too.
I also don't see mental responses to what is happening as gunk. They are natural and helpful suggestions about what could be happening, my brain doing its job and providing information. They come they go, no big deal, unless those responses are believed as being the truth about what is. Then if there are beliefs or things or ideas that are seen as the truth , helpful to investigate this until it is seen through.
To me, thought is natural spontaneous interpretations to what is happening. Nothing wrong with that, I just take it as suggestions, nothing more. Emotion, is blindingly quick truth about what is being thought in that moment, the heart knows often way before the mind. Yes often irrational, unfounded and incorrect, but a real compass to what is thought about a given situation. All in all, critical and helpful information about what is happening. Our emotions drive us to greater presence if we allow them to function as they are meant to function. Personality, beautiful richness and variety of life, hilariously enjoyable to observe in myself and others. I would hate to think spiritual practices is supposed to take that away, so we are blank beingness, the canvass without the colour. We are all of it, the human arisings and the beingness.
quote:
So, Life happens. And if I go along with Life, simply being, there is no resistance. So what causes the resistance? Invariably mind-made stuff, the habitual "wanting to manipulate every experience" stuff. How? By attaching labels, judgments, comparisons, expectations, wishing it were otherwise etc. And where do they all come from? Derivation from the dead past or projection into the unknown future, closely linked to the concept of "me" versus "not me". Even in spirituality (probably more so) - every practice is actually a manipulation of what is.
Manipulating the outside so that the inside can feel better, is certainly not going to always work and when it does, it is at best temporary. Actions can arise naturally out of beingness without intent to manipulate for self gain.
In this above portion of your post, it sounds like you are saying that what is= nothingness and if practices are done, a person is trying to manipulate that perfect isness of the moment? Perhaps you can clarify if I am misunderstanding? Either way, I personally found practices very helpful for a long time. In some ways, very much mental manipulations at other times, spontaneous and ideal for the moment.
quote:
Only recently have I realized that I have absolutely no desire to be a good meditator or a "spiritual" person. I just want to be free. Free of what? All the gunk of continuous resistance. And simply allow what is already arising. And that cannot happen until one stops "doing" and starts "being". As long as we are "doing" something, including "surrendering", it is resistance.
The way I see it, wanting to be free from all the gunk is the beginning of a self-created problem. An indication that the gunk is being viewed as a block or impediment to freedom or beingness. Why do you want to be free of your "responses" to what is happening? It's all good info and nothing to take too seriously. It is natural for the brain to be commentating on everything that is gong on. Wanting to be free means to me that you want all that non-beingness stuff to go away or vanish. Fastest way in my opinion to make it stick around longer than it needs to, getting "louder" with each unheard visit, and increasingly "unpleasant". I see freedom as being self-evident when you realize that you are operating perfectly as you are with all those arisings/ reactions coming and going. They only have the power to impact your behavior and actions in the world if you believe they do. They are actually friends not enemies that just want to be heard imo. They are here to set us increasingly more grounded in the here and now.
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Surrender - who is surrendering and to what?
My response to this is who cares really? I don't mean to sound fickle or disinterested, but once it is seen that there is no "I/me" and anything in between, time to move on in my opinion. It will get more clear on its own and won't need to be revisited. It doesn't mark the end of all those arisings/ responses, just takes some steam out of them. If stuff is arising, it often doesn't matter if you know there is no me/ I, if there is resistance, it will keep coming around until the "message/ learning" is seen/ heard. Then sometimes keep coming again because there are many levels of wisdom that needs to be understood/ seen. Once something is finished teaching you, it moves on. I don't think we really have much choice in the matter.
quote:
Isn't is already happening in Life? Whatever arises, arises because it is already allowed. Already loved - gunk included. Do you see surrendering to also be a subtle resistance?
I would say that true surrender is the absence of resistance. Maybe if someone made a practice out of surrendering, or trying to surrender, they could be resisting, but life will take care of any of this in time.
quote:
When I simply notice the gunk coming up in response to Life, it is already being surrendered. "I" don't need to do a thing "to" surrender. And all the gunk is perfectly valid - for it is being allowed by Life already, isn't it? So, the only real practice in Being is to be. To see that it is all passing through anyway, whether I resist it or not, whether I surrender or not.
From my point of view, yes everything is passing through anyway, but that passing through could take a lifetime in some instances. If someone was believing a thought in a very concrete/ absolute truth kind of way, a lot of associated stuff with that concrete belief could stick around in a very permanent seeming way. Once every single little thing is seen as a possibility and there are no more concrete beliefs, then stuff can arise and depart much more quickly.
No harm in practicing coming back to the here and now. If that is what you mean by practicing being.
Yes we are being and nothing changes that, but the reality is we are also human too. We are everything, all of it. The human arises in being and with it all the richness of life.
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2014 : 07:26:18 AM
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Hi Anthem,
Perhaps we are saying the same thing. And yes, much of what I have been trying to say has been misunderstood, most likely due to my inability to be clear. I apologize for this. Making another attempt without really trying to perseverate.
For starters, let us replace the word "gunk" with another word - filter (variously called vasanas, samskaras, conditioning, obstructions..). This filter as I see it, is the conglomeration of past experiences + future expectations + heavy emotional coloring leading to habitual patterns that cause us to interpret everything that arises in specific ways, to resist, etc. This filter is what causes "stickiness", where the arising of something in this moment is carried through for days/months/years in the form of a mind story. In reality, every moment is new and fresh and nothing is carried temporally in time. The filter is what gives unique arisings of every moment a temporality. Arisings of thoughts and emotions by themselves are not the issue, but this stickiness that is a result of the filter. When I stated I wanted to be free, it is from this stickiness, not the arisings themselves. Who wants to be a bland wall? Life surely isn't bland by any means.
And no, I did not mean "nothingness". Being is not nothingness. Any time we get to talking about nothingness, no-self, no-ego, etc very quickly the discussion becomes esoteric and largely meaningless. It is not possible to function in the world without the ego. As you said, thoughts and emotions arise, because that is what they do. And they can be useful. I don't subscribe to the prevalent thinking for example, that anger is a "bad" thing and indicates lack of progress in yoga. Now, if a short fuse is my habitual pattern driven by a lifetime of resentment, sure that is an issue. But if anger arises in the moment and is not carried into the next (due to the filter), it is just as it is - an arising. It is only when the filter is removed that all arisings can be fully felt and lived - rich, vibrant and making up this thing called Life.
The way I see it (and it is always subject to change) is what you said - who cares really? And this applies to surrender too. If all arisings are seen to be just the nature of things, there is no problem/issue. And nothing to surrender. It is only seeing something as an issue that leads to wanting to surrender.
Here's a common analogy - of the ocean. Sometimes the ocean is calm, sometimes it is chaotic. No matter what it's state, all the waves that arise are made up of the ocean. They arise and fall. If the wave begins to think that the ripples within it are an issue and must be surrendered, it has simply not seen what it is made up of yet - the ocean. As soon as the wave and the ripples arise, they have already been "allowed" by the ocean, because they are all "itself", that is, the ocean has already had its way. Whether the wave wants to surrender or not, it has already taken place. The only thing making the wave wanting to "do" is its filter as being different from the ocean and all the other waves. Once the wave knows it is the ocean, no ripple within it needs any surrendering, nothing the wave needs to "do". They are all seen to be what they are - temporary ripples that come and go, because that is what ripples do.
Practices are needed; as stated earlier, they are paradoxical in that the continuous manipulation of arisings (by going back to the breath/mantra, manipulating the breath, opening the chakras etc etc) eventually results in seeing through all of it by removing the filter, that we have never been anything but Being. Practices will always be needed here, because they show me all the different ways I'm resisting (such as with overload, which occurs to me to be nothing but resistance at various levels) Being.
Hope this helps clarify.
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Edited by - kami on Feb 18 2014 08:13:14 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2014 : 5:21:27 PM
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Hi Kami,
Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
quote:
For starters, let us replace the word "gunk" with another word - filter (variously called vasanas, samskaras, conditioning, obstructions..). This filter as I see it, is the conglomeration of past experiences + future expectations + heavy emotional coloring leading to habitual patterns that cause us to interpret everything that arises in specific ways, to resist, etc. This filter is what causes "stickiness", where the arising of something in this moment is carried through for days/months/years in the form of a mind story. In reality, every moment is new and fresh and nothing is carried temporally in time. The filter is what gives unique arisings of every moment a temporality. Arisings of thoughts and emotions by themselves are not the issue, but this stickiness that is a result of the filter. When I stated I wanted to be free, it is from this stickiness, not the arisings themselves.
Totally understand everything you are saying, it all makes sense. My original point and reason for this thread, was simply to express that in my own experience, wanting to be free of the filter made everything far stickier. It served to increase the volume of everything that seemed sticky and in addition thicken the perception of the filter. The moment I was willing to experience the stickiness with the same appreciation as the moments without the filter being apparent, everything fell into far greater balance. This may not be the case for others, just speaking from my own experience because it took so long for this understanding to integrate that I wanted to put it out there for others in case they found themselves in a similar position. Really not necessary on my part, because life will sort people out without any help anyway.
quote:
And no, I did not mean "nothingness". Being is not nothingness. Any time we get to talking about nothingness, no-self, no-ego, etc very quickly the discussion becomes esoteric and largely meaningless. It is not possible to function in the world without the ego. As you said, thoughts and emotions arise, because that is what they do. And they can be useful. I don't subscribe to the prevalent thinking for example, that anger is a "bad" thing and indicates lack of progress in yoga. Now, if a short fuse is my habitual pattern driven by a lifetime of resentment, sure that is an issue. But if anger arises in the moment and is not carried into the next (due to the filter), it is just as it is - an arising. It is only when the filter is removed that all arisings can be fully felt and lived - rich, vibrant and making up this thing called Life.
I see where you are coming from here. From my experience, to use your example of a short fuse, the primary cause for that for me, other than lack of sleep maybe;) was not wanting to have a short fuse. The more I tried to avoid it, the more it haunted me and the less control I felt. Again, just my experience. Once I acknowledged this capacity within myself, it took its proper place and was expressible in a more balanced way or not, depending on what the situation required, life decides anyway.
quote:
Practices are needed; as stated earlier, they are paradoxical in that the continuous manipulation of arisings (by going back to the breath/mantra, manipulating the breath, opening the chakras etc etc) eventually results in seeing through all of it by removing the filter, that we have never been anything but Being. Practices will always be needed here, because they show me all the different ways I'm resisting (such as with overload, which occurs to me to be nothing but resistance at various levels) Being.
Hope this helps clarify.
It does, thank you for taking the time, lot's of love to you and wishing you all the best. :)
A |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2014 : 5:38:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem
My original point and reason for this thread, was simply to express that in my own experience, wanting to be free of the filter made everything far stickier. It served to increase the volume of everything that seemed sticky and in addition thicken the perception of the filter. The moment I was willing to experience the stickiness with the same appreciation as the moments without the filter being apparent, everything fell into far greater balance. This may not be the case for others, just speaking from my own experience because it took so long for this understanding to integrate that I wanted to put it out there for others in case they found themselves in a similar position. Really not necessary on my part, because life will sort people out without any help anyway.
God damn. This is probably the most concise explanation of my current path possible. *high fu$king five Anthem*
This is exactly what the Seek and Destroy podcast is about for trip1 and myself. Learning to not resist the "filters" but instead embracing them and using them as tools for clearer seeing. They are truly one of the greatest gifts Life gives us. As I read your post though it occurred to me that it is likely possible to go to the extreme here (like in anything) as well, and that I perhaps border on that. It is possible to start to favor the ugliness because of it's teaching potential and the risk there is the same as resisting it... imbalance. Thanks for the thread Anthem, helped point me to this seeing which seems important right now. Thanks!
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2014 : 7:38:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem
Totally understand everything you are saying, it all makes sense. My original point and reason for this thread, was simply to express that in my own experience, wanting to be free of the filter made everything far stickier. It served to increase the volume of everything that seemed sticky and in addition thicken the perception of the filter. The moment I was willing to experience the stickiness with the same appreciation as the moments without the filter being apparent, everything fell into far greater balance. This may not be the case for others, just speaking from my own experience because it took so long for this understanding to integrate that I wanted to put it out there for others in case they found themselves in a similar position. Really not necessary on my part, because life will sort people out without any help anyway.
Very necessary Anthem, for your wisdom is much appreciated here. So, thank you for sharing.
And I can see what you mean by the above. "Wanting" itself can become a trap, and yes, that has become very clear to me lately. After years of struggling against my own nature, I'm finally able to relax "into" it. And so even the wanting is seen as just another arising, very different than wanting with heavy emotional coloring. There is far more equanimity - all just waves.
Do you think that there is a fine line between letting be and being complacent? What makes one more spiritual or wise for letting stickiness "be" versus a sociopath that also seems to be "ok" with their stickiness (whether they act on it or not)?
Thanks.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2014 : 09:12:17 AM
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Hi Carson,
High five back to you :), that was awesome, made me laugh. I agree with you, aggressively going into the stickiness lacks balance and seems to be directed doing instead of taking it in as it arises. More like an "I" doing, rather than life naturally flowing. Life probably knows the order we need to experience things in the ideal way, so why mess with that?
I see it as favouring one thing over everything/ anything, which isn't likely to work imo. Letting go of bliss, equanimity, ecstasy, learning and just going with whatever is presented.
quote:
Originally posted by kami
[quote]Originally posted by Anthem
Do you think that there is a fine line between letting be and being complacent? What makes one more spiritual or wise for letting stickiness "be" versus a sociopath that also seems to be "ok" with their stickiness (whether they act on it or not)?
Thanks.
Hi Kami,
Complacency is not something I fear very often of dwelling in, but I guess you would have to know your own tendencies in this area. Letting be for me doesn't have much to do with doing or not doing. I live life and am very active but don't tinker with things that arise "internally" or try and fix them. Those I let be and just "listen" or wait to see what, if anything, needs to be seen or understood.
i have no desire to be spiritual or wise, wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I don't know how a sociopath internally processes things, but I have noticed that the behavioral tendencies I am uncomfortable with tend to haunt me until i stop avoiding them, and or judging them in others.
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Is something wrong? Saying yes to life
