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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 10 2006 : 10:09:42 AM
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Hi all,
Here are some thoughts and questions after reading Katrine¡¦s recent post (although I have had the questions for many months, waiting for an inspiration to ask¡K..) http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1393 a very beautiful experience. And I am badly longing for that. Will I experience that one day? I'm so far away from that. Ok, you will say, I'm already there, as I always have been. But I don't get it......
I have many questions for you, Katrine and emc, and all of those who went before me; who experienced this. (I hope I am not a party-pooper here in asking the questions . Certainly the questions are not quite in the right mood as your beautiful experience)
1. Katrine, how long did your experience last? Can it become a permanent state? Anyone experience that 7/24? Please please please don¡¦t be humble.
2. When one is so absorbed in this "just seeing", will he/she become more passive? More specifically, how can we stay within such experience, when there are tons of responsibilities waiting for us?
I am experiencing difficulty. I cannot even imagine how I can "simply let life reveal itself" when I have my responsibilities, when people around me are expecting so much from me. And life is not easy. We cannot just be ¡§present¡¨. We need to have plans for our future, otherwise we run the risk of failing our responsibility. And at last, I may end up living upon social benefits. In USA and some European countries, you may have the luxury. But it's harder in Hong Kong, and much harder in many developing countries. I want to "just be there". But I don't think I can. What's the problem here? Is enlightenment a luxury?
I am reluctant to do my responsibility. I want just to be here. But I can¡¦t. I have the tendency to hide away from my tasks, but soon I have to deal with them inevitably. And I have to leaving my inner needs behind.
I badly need an answer for my life. I'm living a life filled with loneliness, and I don't see any permanent way out. I don't see the answer which is supposed to be inside me.
Alvin |
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Nicole
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2006 : 1:29:30 PM
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Alvin,
This is probably not the answer(s) you had in mind but....
Are you physically active? If not may I suggest adding a 20-minute walk following your practices everyday? It may seem mundane but I think it could help you immensely.
Are you remembering to self pace?
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LittleDragon
29 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2006 : 01:45:33 AM
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Alvin,
In Zen there is a saying that goes something like this, "Before Satori, chop wood and carry water. After Satori, chop wood and carry water."
Shri Aurobindo said that ALL of life was Yoga.
Even the responsibility and duty we face in our daily life can be part of our practice.
You have them.
I have them.
Even Katrine still has them.
And probably all three of us wish we didn't have them.
I guess accepting them and trying to fulfill the work that is placed before us is what might be called Karma Yoga. Its just another one of the "limbs of Yoga", and Yogani says advancing on one limb helps you advance on all of the other limbs.
Like you, I have a desire for these experiences we read about. Like you, I have an aversion to much of the rest of my life. We read much in Yoga about ridding ourselves of desire but it is really our aversions that are the bigger culprit. They condemn us to our life of lonliness and sadness and prevent us from "just seeing", from just "being here now". Yes, its not just you, its me, and probably most people.
But we can "Just be here" while we are doing our "work". That is just as much of a practice as mantra or pranayama. Not a replacement for them, but still very much an important part of our total "practice".
I don't get sunburn between my eyebrows from doing spinal breathing. I don't see any stars, circles, or eyes. I don't feel the great amounts of ecsatic conductivity that some some people seem to. Maybe some day I will, maybe not. I don't think I am any farther away from "Enlightenment" because I don't than are those people who do.
Ultimately, I think that "enlightenment" is not an experience, or set of grand and wonderful expericences, or massive amounts of ecstatic conductivity, but a simple, yet profound and radical change of perspective.
Take heart, it could happen to you tomorrow.
Or maybe not.
Being willing to accept either is "equality", another important acheivement in Yoga.
Blessings |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2006 : 04:28:43 AM
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Alvin,
Your questions are relevant and superb! I still have the same questions and not the answers, but I will write my thoughts about it!
Actually, I don't know what I would call my experience during the workshop... It was certainly not "enlightment". The workshop leader calls himself "realized" not enlightened. I think it was the first meeting with my inner silence, the darkness, the nothingness. From what I understand some people call it "the void", some mean something else with that term...
I know that it can be very frightening to meet that place with the ego... Then the experience can be total anxiety, because everything is so empty and meaningless. But if you meet that place from the heart it is a pleasant experience. I was lucky to do that with the help from the workshop leader. So although it was totally "empty" it felt utterly safe and suddenly there was just love.
I was in that "presence" only during the workshop, and after that I dived into it very quickly once or twice, like dipping the toes in cold water and quickly pulling the foot back, because the mind is so strong and anti-that-state so it just breaks in and takes me out of it. But during that state I did not become more passive. It was a remarkable feeling of just shifting the perspective - not altering my way of behaving. It was not ME, my body, my identity, that was "filled with spirit". It was "I"/spririt who entered and borrowed a body with a certain identity to express "itself" through. (Jeez, the language is not made for explaning this.)
When in that state, the duties do not disappear, they are still there, but the thoughts of "I must do this" disappears... There is no longer any ego that can feel stress, pressure, anxiety or anger for not doing duties. When being spirit, the duties are done because they are to be made. It is creative. The duties will not change, but the perspective on WHY they are done. It is not important to do the duties because the ego should be satisfied in some way... it is done because it is creative and one is living life while doing them.
I just brainstorm... I don't really know at all. That is only my feeling right now.
Alvin wrote:
"I badly need an answer for my life. I'm living a life filled with loneliness, and I don't see any permanent way out. I don't see the answer which is supposed to be inside me."
To find out what was inside of me I did this a while ago, before I was on the workshop:
I confronted myself with the question
"Do I really believe that the spirit is there for me and can help me?"
When I honestly, from the deep of my heart could say YES to that, I sat down to meditate with the purpose to make contact with my higher and true self. I concentrated on the spot on my chest where the soul lives - right where the breast bone parts in to two ribbons. I focused on that spot and welcomed my higher self. "I know you are there and I welcome you." I showed trust in it. And I received an answer after a few minutes. When I had made "contact" and felt a pressure on that spot and up through the breast bone, I asked "Please show me what is my deepest truth. What do I have inside me right now? What is in my heart?" And then I waited for the answer. Just waited for a sign - a feeling, a scenery, a picture, a "knowing"... a sense... and it came. An immense sorrow bubbled up.
On the workshop the leader spoke about "Find your truth, find your love" all the time, and pointed at his breast bone. I just took it as a confirmation - what I had made contact with must be what he was talking about! So I started to focus on that spot and asked for contact during the workshop and then things started to happen from there... That is how it worked for me. I don't know if anyone else can relate to that in any way.
Now I can rather easily and only by welcoming it get that contact and pressure on the breast bone - often in combination with that spontaneous deep breathing - and when I do I feel no pain, sorrow or anger. It is impossible to combine. As soon as I go up in the mind the pressure and breathing disappears and I get all ego-related "likes and dislikes". But it is not a feeling of "bliss" or anything... it is just a sort of neutral "contact" and knowing what is really true. I know that the world is not to take so seriously. And I now use it as a "best friend" - I ask for help, answers and relief whenever I am in need. Most often I get very clear answers. It is weird, but it works. =)
For example, I was up on a very high mountain a week ago, standing right at the edge of a 300 meter cliff. It was a bit scary and my legs shivered. Then I came to think about the fact that I cannot die... Wrrooom... the breast bone pressure came, the breathing came and I became totally calm and smiled. I changed perspective and knew what was eternal and true. I almost got an urge to fall from the cliff because I knew I would be able to see my body falling and still be there, conscius, when the body died and I thought that would be rather cool. =)
For me, it has been a great help to understand exactly how tricky the mind/ego is. As soon as you think past - future, likes or dislikes, you are trapped in the mind. Letting go of the ego is to not suffer anymore from the pains and sorrows of life, but ALSO to let go of all LIKES! Everything I like will also become irrelevant. It is really to "die" to give up the ego. Not to enjoy beautiful sexy women/men, not to enjoy funny films, not to enjoy anything that the ego WANTS. It will still all be there, but it will not be relevant as a "Like or dislike". It will just be there to see.
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Edited by - emc on Aug 11 2006 06:04:14 AM |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2006 : 08:10:16 AM
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Alvin, life can change instantly, there is really never any telling. It can be a small change or a massive one, which is out of our hands.
I think by being honest with yourself about how you feel right now is a good thing. It shows you what you really feel and so what you really want. That's really all you have to do, and one way or another the universe compliments our inner preparedness. It may just take some time.
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Edited by - Kyman on Aug 11 2006 09:07:12 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2006 : 11:01:48 AM
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Hi Alvin
First - let me say that I understand your loneliness. Your pain; your struggle; is very familiar.
However - in spite of what you might think - be open to the fact that your evaluation of what is going on in your life is not really true. It is at best "relative truth".
quote:
And I am badly longing for that. Will I experience that one day? I'm so far away from that. Ok, you will say, I'm already there, as I always have been. But I don't get it......
What is between who you think you are, and who you really are, is not distance. You are neither close to, nor far away from who you really are. But - as you point out - you just don't realize it. You are trying to grasp - with your mind - something that cannot be perceived logically. If I identify 100 % with myself as a separate person/personality - I will not perceive the unity of existence.
A lot of my struggle is due to the fact that I actually think I can fix this "problem" (of being separate from existence/God/Being). When I started to suspect that I didn't know who I was, I set out to find out. For a long time I actually thought that I would find out. I was desperate to find out. I wanted to understand. I searched and searched. I tried many, many avenues. None of them brought me truth. But a few (very few) of them brought me closer to understanding that I set out to fix my problem
(yes - I know we call it search for God or enlightenment - but for a long time it is really a search for "feeling better", "fixing bad moods", "becoming happy", "finding rest", "not feeling lonely")
when actually the problem was not "the problem" - the problem was I. How can a problem ever hope to solve itself? It can't be done.
So, if I ask: "Will I ever get it?" - the answer in me is: No. I will never "get it." For a while I tried this new avenue of "stilling the I". All the energy that had previously been occupied in outward searching now turned inward....the instant I discovered my own defenses and misconceptions I tried to do something about them. To be clever about them. To not listen to them. This didn't work either. So - I stopped trying to eliminate "I". Instead I allowed everything to surface. Together with all the clutter inside rose the emotional wounds that I carried. And the story I told myself about these wounds. Then I discovered that the story (I) actually veiled the wounds. Better to feel them. Better to allow air to touch them. Slowly I healed. It is difficult to be silent if you are full of pain. So first - allow the pain. Help it surface and clear your system. You are already doing that, Alvin. The less stories you tell about it, the better. Allow the longing everytime it surfaces. Don't talk about it inside. Don't run after it; don't run away from it. Simply allow it. The purification takes care of itself through your practises (AYP) and through greater awareness, your wounds will heal.
I can tell you: Be still! Reality can be perceived. Absolutely!
But it won't mean anything until you see for yourself. And I can't make you see. I can't even make myself see. This is not a tragedy! If I can't make you see, you will be thrown back at yourself until seeing is finally here. Perceived in your body, Alvin.
Reality perceives itself. In the post you refer to, ......it is not that I see instead of look. It is just....seeing. What perceives....and what is perceived...is the same.
This really can't be explained (how do you explain a laughter?).....but I went to my livingroom window a couple of nights ago....a glimpse of the evening sky beckoned me to come to it....so I stood there. I was silent. All of a sudden, everything ......the houses, trees, sky, clouds, cars...everything was awake. And everything was laughing....so much joy. This is what I am! I am this/that ! Everything had a shine to it. But the most stunning was the awakeness. This awakeness is what we are. It lasts forever. But since I still come and go - the perception is still not constant in my body. It doesn't matter now. There is still sadness surfacing.......impatience....irritability or whatever. But that isn't all of me. Far from it So I relax about it. I am alert.....and relaxed. And I enjoy this 
1.
Become aware of; (inquire into); and thus understand, all the different ways I hinder this realization. Purify (AYP) the nervous system so that it is possible for it to....transmit...this realization to my senses, without the body being destroyed.
2.
Allow reality.
That is the non-doing. It is not that I don't go to work or take out the garbage. It is just that as much as I can, I don't resist reality. If pain is there, I let it surface....increase, diminish...and then be gone. This means, when my thoughts are not needed, to shut up inside. To not prolong my pleasures or my sufferings (as emc points out) by painting inner images or telling inner stories.
3.
Forget all of the above
Have fun
Enjoy
Play
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2006 : 3:36:16 PM
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Great posts above everyone!
quote:
So - I stopped trying to eliminate "I". Instead I allowed everything to surface. Together with all the clutter inside rose the emotional wounds that I carried. And the story I told myself about these wounds.
Thanks Katrine for this, it is very pertinent for what I have been experiencing lately. To just allow my brain/ ego to think and feel whatever it wants to, it can't change the part of me that just is. Oh I can believe it for a little while and be fooled, but I eventually figure it out. I just continue to accept my ego/brain to think or feel whatever it wants, I can no longer be bothered to try to stop it. I am starting to believe that nothing I can think is true, we'll see!
In any case, I actually don't think it makes a difference, I see truth clearing out every hidden corner of me and the momentum is too strong to stop it. I am trying to make a point to enjoy the process of watching things become more clear. I think it’s really all we can do and besides it's fun?!?! Well sometimes!
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2006 : 02:39:35 AM
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Thanks for all the replies. They got through my heart, as far as they can without my direct experience. I am still trying to hide myself from life, but I understand that it all takes time.
quote:
When in that state, the duties do not disappear, they are still there, but the thoughts of "I must do this" disappears... There is no longer any ego that can feel stress, pressure, anxiety or anger for not doing duties. When being spirit, the duties are done because they are to be made. It is creative.
Wow, I long for that! So it¡¦s not about a passive state, although it sounds like one? And nice story, emc. Though I¡¦m happy that you didn¡¦t fall from the cliff at last, and is able to share now
quote:
(yes - I know we call it search for God or enlightenment - but for a long time it is really a search for "feeling better", "fixing bad moods", "becoming happy", "finding rest", "not feeling lonely")
Absolutely...for me, God is too vague. Frankly, I just want to feel good, not so lonely, and forget all rest.
Katrine wrote:
quote:
So first - allow the pain. Help it surface and clear your system. You are already doing that, Alvin. The less stories you tell about it, the better. Allow the longing everytime it surfaces. Don't talk about it inside. Don't run after it; don't run away from it. Simply allow it.
My biggest problem I've had (and still have), when you mentioned this some months ago, was that for me the pain is almost the same as the stories. The thoughts and stories generate themselves.... The "stopping" was more like an escape from everything, by engaging in other activities. Now it's more under control. I can usually stop the thoughts. When the thoughts stop, I don't know where the pain is! Yet, I know they are still inside me. I know they will come again. And more importantly, I need an answer. ?? An answer about my life, may be. So the pain is replaced by a fear (about the future, about the unknown). Usually just a little fear, but it's always there in the background.
Sometimes, when I wake up in the morning, an indescribable fear; a great fear strikes me hard. No vivid stories. Although I think it's associated with some abstract image deep in my unconscious mind. The fear may all be imaginary, but at those moment I feel complete hopeless about anything. When that happens, I just want to run away. It feels too bad. I want to die and escape from the feeling, but I have a great fear for death, too. Do you mean allowing the feeling just like this? But my fear won't be so pure and direct in day time (unless there are some stories going on in my mind), and in most cases. How can I feel what is so deep inside, without the stories that come with them? |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Aug 12 2006 03:44:54 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2006 : 05:25:35 AM
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Hi Alvin
quote:
I can usually stop the thoughts. When the thoughts stop, I don't know where the pain is!
Exactly. This is a crucial observation. Most of our pain is generated by the story (thoughts) we tell.
Part of what is clensed out during purification (whether done through AYP or other practises) are the emotional "scarring" in our bodies. Suppressed feelings have to surface in order for them to be cleared away. Sometimes this happens consciously; sometimes unconsciously.
quote:
Absolutely...for me, God is too vague. Frankly, I just want to feel good, not so lonely, and forget all rest.
Yes, Alvin. And this is why we say "we want to just be here".......but actually what is the truth? The truth is that we do not want to be here. So we're not. We are in an idea of how reality should be instead.
God - is an idea. How can it not be? Until I taste the actual food - all I have is the menue. And if I haven't entered the right restaurant - I might not even have that. The menue won't ever still my hunger.
So....your process is more like accepting exactly how things are for you - and then forget all about what it is supposed to be like. You are hungry. Period. Can you be open to the fact that food is around you? Don't believe in it - don't not believe in it. Just.....don't decide until you see for yourself. It is very scientific, really.
quote:
And more importantly, I need an answer. ?? An answer about my life, may be. So the pain is replaced by a fear (about the future, about the unknown). Usually just a little fear, but it's always there in the background
Yes, Alvin. The fear is the reason you feel you need an answer. I can't comfort you there. No answers will ever satisfy you. They are forever the menue. However - food will eventually still your hunger. And the more nutrition you manage to absorb - the less grip the fear (which is basically what the true state of the mind is, when it thinks of itself as the master) will have on you. You can imagine .....how can thoughts and images ever hope to "control" reality. It can't. And this generates fear. Allow the fear - but don't believe the stories you tell about it.
quote:
The fear may all be imaginary, but at those moment I feel complete hopeless about anything. When that happens, I just want to run away. It feels too bad. I want to die and escape from the feeling, but I have a great fear for death, too. Do you mean allowing the feeling just like this?
Yes. The fear isn't imaginary for you - it is very real. ("Real" - in that it is happening right now). But remember - the cause of the fear is not real. The cause of the fear is - like you said - an image, or a story. Past or future - that you drag into the now, and thus veils it. So....when the fear is there - allow it....don't speak...it honestly won't kill you (that is just a thought you have about it....that you believe in....although it's just "a menue" ). Allow it until it dies down of itself. Without a story attached to it...it won't survive for long. And what is there/here when the fear is gone - this is what you are. This - is here always. Whether you think or feel - "good" or "bad" thoughts or feelings - this is always here.
If this is always here - then it matters not if the fear comes back. You are still this. Eventually - when you have had tastes of this - the menue won't interest you anymore. And fear is because of the menue. So ......then there will definitely be less fear. For you. A disinterest cannot be forced. It is not something you can do. It simply happens naturally. So....don't eliminate the fear. Eliminating it will just suppress it....how are you then going to find out? The fear is a consequense - investigate the cause. If the cause is not real; then how can the fear be real?
The more you allow of feelings and states (whether "negative" or "positive") - the more in touch with yourself you become. Reality releases what you need to process, Alvin. It will bring you in contact with the people, situations and settings that will clense you of what is not "true" in you.
It is yourself you miss when you are lonely. By accepting; and allowing; the loneliness to ....come...increase....and then diminish....you fall back into this. AYP cleanses your tastebuds....so that your taste of this goes from insipid to delicious....lush. When I manage to rest in this - I am alone. But this is so....ah...mmm...loving, joyful,....that the word "lonely" simply disappears from the vocabulary.
You are doing great, Alvin
Give yourself some credit! Your "not buying into anything until you experience it for yourself" is a great attitude. Simply because nothing but Truth will satisfy you. |
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