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RSS
USA
69 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 28 2014 : 07:11:07 AM
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I have been doing kriya (spinal breathing, navi kriya etc.) for many years (3 to 4 hours a day spread out in 2 sessions). Kriya makes me feel great after every meditation session - blissful, on top of the world, very positive, etc. - I feel like I'm high on drugs afterward. Every 8 months or so I try and incorporate Deep Meditation ( I AM Mantra - about 15 to 25 minutes) at the end of a shorter kriya routine and I get the same results. I feel like crap. Somewhat depressed, a bit of anxiety, a feeling of oncoming doom, and a generally bad/negative feeling. Can I be any clearer here? Most of the time I need to go for a run to get out of this state.
Years ago (30 years ago) I did T.M. for about 2 to 3 years. 20 minutes/ twice per day. The mantra was almost identical to the "I AM" Mantra (specifically "I'M"). I remember that during that time I had the same feelings most of the time and was doing a lot of running to feel better. For some reason I stayed with it for a long time thinking it would get better. If this was house cleaning, I would think it would be over or at least settled down after 2 or 3 years.
Right after T.M. I started doing breath meditation and then kriya. Breath meditation had no bad affect regardless of how long the session was and took me into a breathless state (for a short period of time) a few times.
One more thing to mention. Navi kriya uses OM chanting into the Manipura chakra as a means of getting the motor (vibrations in c3 and the spine) turned on. Some kriya lineages do a fairly rapid build up of this technique to about 1 to 2 hours per session. This does not have the same negative affect as "I AM" or I'M".
I am seriously questioning if this "I AM" mantra is really any good. I am not a sensitive meditator. There are time when I have meditated on the crown for months on end and have done upwards of 300 kriya (spinal breathing) in a session, and/or 1 to 2 hours of Navi with "OM" and have had nothing but positive, blissful feelings afterward. Afterward my wife would ask me if I was on drugs or something, and this beautiful feeling would last for a long time.
I'm sorry if I am upsetting anyones apple cart with this post, but this has been bugging me for years. I just tried it again over the past few days and once again felt like crap, didn't sleep well etc. This time I didn't run because I wanted to see how long this feeling would last - about a day. It seemed to go away after my normal kriya session this morning (without DM).
Some input here would be appreciated. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2014 : 2:52:20 PM
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Hi RSS:
While you may not be sensitive to many of the techniques you have been using, it appears you are sensitive to mantra meditation of the style we use in AYP, or you would not be having such uncomfortable reactions to it.
In order to find a balance, have you tried self-pacing the mantra meditation time back to 5-10 minutes, and other measures discussed in Lesson 367? Sometimes a longer mantra can help (covered in the lesson), as it slows down the rate of transcendence. If breath meditation works well for you without adverse effects, that is a good thing (also covered in the lesson).
All techniques do not work with equal stability and results for all people, due to the unique characteristics embedded in our nervous systems, and that is why we have the many self-pacing, grounding and alternate approach discussions that we do in AYP.
If something does not work for me, but works for others, it does not mean the technique is no good. It is just a matter of assessing the individual cause-effect and making the necessary adjustments for progress with comfort and safety, which you have done. It is up to each of us to find a balance in practices that works best for us.
Stepping back, there are essentially two fronts we are addressing with spiritual practices:
1. The cultivation of abiding inner silence (awareness, witness), bringing more peace and creativity in daily living. This is the province of meditation.
2. The cultivation of ecstatic conductivity, bringing a sense of radiating pleasurable joy in daily living. This is the province of pranayama, mudras, bandhas and asanas.
When these two characteristics are combined through practices and normal daily activity, we find life occurring increasingly as "stillness in action," where our intentions and inquiries released in stillness (samyama) result in an outpouring of divine love and divine purpose, and a rising sense of unity in our life.
Lahiri Mahasaya of the Kriya lineage called it the "merging of emptiness with euphoria," the essential dynamic of enlightenment.
This point about merging emptiness and euphoria is brought up as a reminder that our practice is not only about experiencing euphoria. It is also about cultivating abiding inner silence. Whatever form of meditation we are able to use with consistency, stability and good results is for that. Then we can move on to the merging of these two divine qualities, and the many practical benefits it brings in everyday living.
All the best on your continuing path!
The guru is in you.
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RSS
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2014 : 4:37:33 PM
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Hi Yogani,
Thanks for the explanation. I had not read lesson 367 prior to today. I was very pleased to see you endorsing breath meditation. Up until today I was under the impression that breath meditation was a no-no on this site.
I have not tried to do DM for 5 to 10 minutes over a period of weeks or months so I don't know what affect that would have regarding overloading and just how oversensitive to mantra meditation I am. 5 to 10 minutes seemed like not enough time to devote to mediation and in the past I just wouldn't consider only meditating for 5 to 10 minutes.
I have not tried to use a longer mantra but my guess is that it would probably work better for me than "I AM" by itself. Also, I can't understand why all those Navis with om did not have this overload affect.
After reading lesson 367 I will stay with breath meditation. This does not produce any overloads at all and I have a fondness toward it.
Thanks for your help. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2014 : 11:33:02 PM
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Hi RSS,
I think DM was quite a blessing several decades ago, where you had to practice like hell to get some results. Also people seemed to be way more insensitive to spiritual practice in general, or you could say more stable. Back then when I first started with DM, it also worked for nearly one year without problems. They only came after the surface clearing had reached some critical point, since then I had the very same results you had, again and again.
When it comes to Gurunath's kriya and OM-technique e.g. given, if that mantra part is overdone aswell, I also get some problems, mainly too much energy and the capacity to overuse the physics without noticing its need for increased oxygen resulting in a temporal whitish appearance of the body. But the other feelings of DM (10% bliss, 90% suffering) do not come yes :P Still overall it is not perfectly balanced. Adding enough spinal breathing and maha mudra and the combo is safe. The more spinal breathing and maha mudra, the more mantra can be done without any problems. But kriya yoga was designed for that, so it works. AYP was designed for maximum efficiency in the shortest possible time. Obviously in todays more sensitive days it does not work for everyone anymore.
Regarding the breath meditation, Gurunath used to say, that it was a good technique in the past but that its time to move on a more sophisticated technique like kriya yoga. I liked breath meditation aswell, the problem here was, after soem minutes the breath stops. then for the rest of the session it is a combo of no breath and sometimes some breath. Result is highly unhealthy effects after some days.
Coming to Yogani's hint derived from Lahiri Mahasayas quote back then when I first came to AYP, I also got the impression that the silence part is missing in kriya yoga. Now after having practiced Lahiri's kriya, Gurunath's kriya, Mangalananda's kriya, Yogeshwarananda's kriya, it is not the case. The silence part is embedded in the silent concentration on either the crown or the kutastha depending on whose kriya one practices while being in the after effect of the kriya breath.
Lahiri's orig kriya did this with yoni mudra resulting in very fast pratyahara, dharana, dhayana and samadhi. I think it was an ingenious combo, but it did not adress the crown at all. Hari started to shift the attention from kutastha to the crown in a way that really works. But in both cases either the third eye opening is delayed or the crown opening. Gurunath having learned Lahiri's kriya and Hari's kriya tried to create a balanced kriya, some kutastha, some crown (crown being final point of concentration) resulting in very balanced more fullspectrum effects, but for that reason also both less third eye and crown opening :)
If you want maximum silence, you can also go the awareness based meditation route being the fastest. But going that route makes it impossible to keep up pranayama, asana etc. One gets really really lazy and only wants to melt in presence because it feels the best anyway :P Then the imbalances and unhealthy results start again. Obviously this approach also works for some people!!
It seems like there will always be different systems of spiritual practices depending on the different kinds of body minds on this planet. I'm sure all systems and techniques will evolve more and more to become more effective and at the same time more stable aswell. The best would be most effectiveness paired with mainly 90-100% positive results.
For this body mind here:
Gurunaths kriya: 100% positive on all levels, only downside is efficiency
Manga's kriya (KYI): 90% positive results, 10% problems including cold hands from extreme awareness growth and not being scalable as Lahiri's or Gurunaths kriya
Lahiri's kriya: 90% positive results, 10% problems including too much energy resulting in the problems described above when too much mantra is practiced
Yogeshwarananda's kriya: 100% positive results, but lifeflow and lifestyle change to become very calm
AYP beginning phase: 100% positive results, aka either good results or nothing happening
AYP hitting 1 year: 50% good, 50% bad, one day bliss, one day hell and rising health problems
APY after 1 year: 20% good, 80% bad, aka sometimes bliss, mostly suffering, serious health problems
AYP after that: never worked again, every restart resulted in landing at 20/80 or even 10/90 after some days or weeks independant on practice amount. Once DM did not work anymore, it never worked again :(
I think the best combo in AYP that could still work for those getting problems with DM is to change to breath meditation together with SBP and the asanas routine.
Still for me the satisfaction of kriya is way higher, except Yogeshwarananda's would not be ideal for my lifestyle (city, work, family, partner, friends etc.). It is good to have options, there are other nice spiritual practices/systems out there aswell, Jaggi Vasudev's Isha kriya is growing. Also Nithyananda's eN-kriya is pretty nice, but only good for strong people.
@RSS, why doing kriya + breath meditation? Is the idea to have even more silence?
@Yogani, do you think an AYP survey would be a good idea to get actual numbers on succesful DM practitioners and breath meditation practitioners to perhaps do one last wonder before leaving this planet? :)) Your creative godly insight and open source heart!! could create something more intense, satisfactory and stable than the current alternatives to SBP+DM, I'm sure! Something crazy, something unthinkably and unbelievably good! :D Lesson 367 tries to cover it I know, but other non-open source alternatives has shown themselves to be way better, at least to my observations so far.
Just to reactivate fresh creative intelligence :) I mean, where is greater joy than in seeing others enjoying their spiritual practice, becoming realized gods of joy and bliss, turning this planet into "welcome to paradise" :))
We can't wait or expect this from Yogani, I know. I am endlessly thankful for what AYP did and still does offer. Being a place of gathering alone is more than what the rest of this planet has provided so far. I'd say this site and forum is the Nr.1.
Thanks and peace to all,
and happy practice with whatever works for any body mind! |
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orangesky
Germany
39 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2014 : 06:51:14 AM
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First of all, THANK YOU YOGANI for all you are offering here.... the hundreds of sessions, the forum with this awesome, friendly and warm atmosphere in it which is so informative and entertaining :) (a big thank you to all users here) and the inexpensive books with the additional information... The whole concept of this site is so awesome and unique :)
Thank you Holy for the hint about the muscle toning in the appendix of yoganis asanas book. I will definitely give it a try. Yesterday I bought the last available copy on Amazon Germany of yoganis asanas book in english :)
I´m oversensitive, too...
During my first ever AYP DM (in lying position..which is not the best position, I know now :)) after about 5 repetitions it felt like the mantra IAM repeated itself maybe 5 times without my conscious effort...then I felt an explosion which felt neither positive nor negative... I woke up and instantly felt a great warmth and a big tension creeping up... I had to walk through my town the whole night to ground the hefty energy that was created that evening.
Then on my second try (months later) I started the day with DM for 10 minutes and rested for 5 - 10 minutes afterwards. One hour later i started to feel slightly nauseous and very very tensed and imbalanced throughout the day, later I went for another 10 minutes of DM in the evening which resulted in even more tension, burning skin/nerves on one spot of my body and a sleepless night because I felt so full of energy (not pleasant) and I once again walked pretty much all night long.
I stopped DM and 4 days later I felt dizzy for 2 days, then all symptoms stopped.
But simple breath meditation was not a bit better....it even felt much worse!
After my AYP DM experience, about 3 weeks later I just watched my breath for 10 minutes. First session was ok...in the second session I felt and saw a WONDERFUL stream in my body for a short time. The night after was horrible I felt very depressed which I usually don´t feel at all... In the morning another breath meditation for 5 minutes but the same symptoms of feeling depressed and strong headache on the back of the head appeared so I also stopped doing this simple breath meditation.
My routine since then is Nadi Shodhana and walking meditation (where I show/think gratitude towards nature -trees especially :)). Too much acid in my stomach, headaches, food intolerances (allergies , itching skin), slightly cramped muscles in my legs and slight dizziness completely are a thing of the past since doing these two practices. Strangely, eating many eggs on my days of walking meditation definitely made the healing effects MUCH stronger... don´t know why
I think Nadi Shodhana with gyan mudra and without bandhas is a very good and harmonious starting practice for us oversensitive people (starting the inbreathing with the left nostril!....calming)...
Nadi shodhana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-qbjk10tB4
I will soon start Kriya Yoga, later maybe something else additionally who knows, and maybe in the future a combination with other systems will enable us to come back to AYP ... I believe this will happen :) AYP seems too effective and with too much of a positive effect for too many people to be lost for a group of persons like us (us oversensitives).... :)
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RSS
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2014 : 08:13:09 AM
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Holy, now that I think about it T.M. started off ok. That is probably why I stayed with it for 2 or 3 years. If it was bad from day 1 I (and others) would not have continued. It was probably those memories of the first few months that kept me thinking it would turn around and get better.
To answer your question, there is probably no reason to do kriya and breath meditation. After a while, breath meditation seems (for me) to turn into some form of silent kriya. Maybe just awareness in the crown or spiritual eye after kriya is all that is needed.
I have been wondering why Navi does not have this bad affect. As stated above, I have done it for months on end for 1 to 2 hours at a time and have had nothing but blissful experiences. There are three things I can think of to possibly explain this. One is the different mantra. Second is that there is a focal point (manipura chakra) where as the mantra in DM is kind of just floating out there somewhere. And third, Navi was followed by 45 to 60 minutes of kriya pranayam.
Is it possible that DM loosens up all kinds of karmic crap in the chakras but just leaves it there without completely expelling it? Then you walk around in hell for a while afterward. If you do DM twice a day you would never get back to normal. Ashok (In California) made it clear to me during a kriya initiation a few years ago, that chanting om in the chakras was very important during kriya in order to eliminate this karmic crap that is stirred up. I would try doing Kriya after 20 minutes (or maybe even 30 minutes - to really test this out) of DM with "I AM" in order to see if this theory is plausible but I really don't want to go through that hell again in case I'm wrong. Maybe in another 8 months or so (after I have forgotten somewhat).
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2014 : 1:30:01 PM
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Hi RSS,
regarding navi the orig Lahiri style aka with OM's, the observation here was, that if you do that in greater amounts, aka lets say 4 rounds with a total of 600 OM's or so :P and only do about 1-2 12er rounds of kriya pranayama, then the whole thing also becomes instable. Not in the way as with DM, but for me the result is too much breathlessness, too much blissful silence resulting in the same whitisch appearance. If a good amount of kriya pranayama is added, then all is fine. Breathing is important to balance mantra, at least for this body here. The more breath happens, the more smooth the whole thing is + the more wonderful the overall effect :P
And yes because of the precise application of the mantra to the chakra points, you are facilitating a natural process in the body mind, while DM makes you enter into that silence which is completely beyond any form, structure (an alien could also practice it with a totally different body-mind-structures), forcing the body mind to purify partly in a global way, partly thhrough the mantras movement. The mantras movement is precise, but the presence pressure is unchanneled, global and creating this tension, depression, unhealthy effects if its intensity gets too much (as it happens fast thanks to DMs efficiency :P)..
I think the main reason why e.g. kriya or nadi sodhana remain smooth, is that the flow of lifeforce in the body mind - including the release of karmic structures and their transformation via the nadi and chakra circuit - is always channeled properly so no blocks do happen, no resistance, at least not in the way a global pressure of bliss presence can create. Also going into silent bliss is done via its corresponding gateways (third eye, crown) whose nature is to refine the lifeforce so endlessly and by this also making a smooth transition into it.
The direct or more direct approachs all do have the global pressure in common, may it come through mantra style jumping into silence without adressing the flow of lifeforce in the body mind or may it be through directly being awareness itself etc.
The good side of those global purifiers are, that you do not need to look under the hood, so they are highly simple in nature. Practically speaking when imbalances occur under the hood, there is no solution aswell, except decreasing the global pressure. I think that is what Gurunath means by more sophisticated tools. More under the hood operation is done, but obiously it is worth the effort. At least for some. My mother can't practice anything complex, she liked AYP for that reason but did not continue. My dad e.g. likes all the fine details and loves to practice kriya yoga for several years now. Then another friend says, man why all the fuss, take some hoff-man every weekend and life is nice :D He is content with paradise once a week ^^
Everyone as he loves to,
peace and happy practice! |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2014 : 1:42:47 PM
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Hi orangesky,
sounds like you are even more sensitive than the avarage sensitive :D For you the classic ruote of yoga maybe really more ideal, aka first create a strong base and then step by step refine. You can also do that via AYP methods, starting with pimping the muscles and going into the asana kit, then doing some pranayama. Kriya is always good, but if you want to remain open source, you can also check out the other mentioned kriyas of Jaggi and Nithyananda.
Among the kriya yogic variants, KYI comes closest to AYP regarding low amount of practice and maximum possible result. Then comes Lahiris orig kriya. Gurunaths kriya is the king of smoothsness and balance but you have to dedicate yourself to it more timewise.
The other alternative is to go to a realized master of the Ramana lineage and self inquire into your true nature in their presence :P With some luck it may be the final ticket.
Peace and love! |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2014 : 2:21:45 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement. See the post immediately below. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2014 : 2:54:37 PM
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Hi All:
Thank you for your generous and insightful input in this topic.
Since this has evolved into a discussion on several systems of practice, we have moved the topic to the "other systems" section of the forum. This will not affect the topic link or anything else, and the discussion can continue without any restriction on what practices and systems are being explored. The AYP deep meditation support section of the forum is for those seeking assistance with the the AYP deep meditation technique. This topic has obviously gone beyond that, so hence the move.
It should be kept in mind that in this topic we are talking about sensitivity issues related to deep meditation and other techniques, and possible solutions. These sensitivity issues do not apply to everyone, and anyone reading here might find AYP Lesson 365 and the two lessons that follow to be a helpful introduction to the subject.
Coming up with an effective open-source system that can serve a wide range of practitioners, without falling into excessive complexity, is a tall order. AYP is an attempt at doing that. It is certainly not perfect. But, based on extensive feedback coming through a variety of public channels (including the ongoing AYP survey), it does a reasonable job for those who are neither too under-sensitive nor too over-sensitive -- that is, the majority of practitioners who are in the center of the sensitivity bell curve.
For those who are either under-sensitive or over-sensitive, additional measures have been suggested, and that is what Lessons 365-367 are about. These are areas of continuing research by an increasing number of practitioners who find themselves affected, and that is a good thing. Better to take a scientific approach to resolving sensitivity issues, than to continually be sweeping them under the rug, which has been the approach in some traditions. Open-source does not allow for that, so we see discussions like this one occurring. It's a good thing.
On the other hand, it can get pretty complicated trying to analyze dozens of practices and systems. We each can only speak from our own experience, and whether that experience is limited or extensive is going to make a difference in the quality of any conclusions that might be reached.
In my case, the experience is long with a particular integrated system of practices, which has been set forth as "AYP." I am qualified to talk about that system with a degree of certainty all day long. 
That includes assessing how others are doing with the system and offering suggestions on how it can be adjusted for maintaining good spiritual progress with comfort and safety. That is where the variations in application come in to accommodate the variations in individual practitioners. Does it cover everyone under the sensitivity curve? I wish it did. More work is needed, but there is a limit to what can be done here.
I think the ongoing evolution of open-source systems of practice is going to be carried forward by many others. AYP, and the degree of adaptability it has built into it, is based on a particular set of experiences -- mine since around 1970, and those who have been using the system since 2003. While I'd love to see AYP extended to cover an even wider range of practitioners, it is really beyond this body/mind's need for additional practices, or my ability to adequately test other systems for decades more in this life. Both the need and the time are not there for me to do it. I can observe the causes and effects in what others are doing with a wide range of practices and form opinions based on my own somewhat different experience, but that hardly qualifies me to draw any solid conclusions.
So I think the ongoing evolution of open-source systems belongs to the next generation of spiritual practitioners, and the generations that follow. Do it well...
There is much to be said for open-source systems like AYP, and I hope explorations of this type will continue. But keep in mind that at particular points in time it should be boiled down to something people can easily understand and utilize with practical results. For that, someone, or a group of someones, has to take a stand and say, "Here it is in a simple no-nonsense form -- a baseline system." Then, from there, you can observe the many efforts that come to make it hopelessly complicated again. Such is life... 
In the end, it boils down for each of us to "Take what works and leave the rest." That is the scientific method in a nutshell, and it can be applied to spiritual systems with great effectiveness. Don't we know it?
Carry on!
The guru is in you.
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2014 : 6:39:22 PM
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Hi Yogani,
thank you for your very nice and funny answer :D I agree this thread has derailed along the posts, so it is better placed in this section of the forum :P
I had totally forgotten about the survey. I also had put my input to it several years ago (mostly positive results back then). Looking at its results again, most of the people seem to be perfectly happy :) Nonduality at 20%, ok there is still room for improvement :P
I also trust, that you would not support and stand behind the baseline of AYP so strongly if it did not work out (at least has worked out) good enough for you and a lot of other people, I think that is the reason why a lot of us who once were happy with DM have several times started to somehow come back to it, but along the times other things have been tested, so what can we do. All of us are honest in our approach :)quote:
While I'd love to see AYP extended to cover an even wider range of practitioners, it is really beyond this body/mind's need for additional practices, or my ability to adequately test other systems for decades more in this life. Both the need and the time are not there for me to do it.
Sounds more than fair, thank you still for commenting! :)quote:
So I think the ongoing evolution of open-source systems belongs to the next generation of spiritual practitioners, and the generations that follow. Do it well...
Yes, sir.
Yes, we love to make it so complicated, what can we do :D Then obviously we are the unlucky ones, were the simple variants do not work out.. :P No problem, as long as something works (=
Thanks again for the nice post dear Yogani,
peace and happy practice to all :) |
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orangesky
Germany
39 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2014 : 07:20:42 AM
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Dear yogani, thank you for your wonderful words.
Maybe you are right and some are just too sensitive and too far away from the centre of the sensitivity bell curve for AYP to work (for now) and for the majority of people in the center of the sensitivity bell curve there are no (or not so many) problems. I just can´t imagine that it can/will last forever that I can´t practice -even only for some minutes- the really simple method of breath meditation. Something is missing....and maybe what Holy writes is true and we are the unlucky ones where the simple variants do not work out. :D
So, I will search further... and hopefully later will be coming back and report.
And Holy, thank you so much for your spiritual research all the time and your amazing reports about the wonderful and mystical retreat experiences with Gurunath at the castle, Swami Yogeswaranda Giri and Mangalananda Giri (KYI).....
Your reports are better then every book :D...one can feel they are so full of heart and enthusiasm! ….and you are always so extremely analytical.... :)
You write Gurunaths kriya is the king of smoothness, only downside is efficiency and I think thats exactly what I need. I don´t need maximum possible results with eventually heightened crown activity and so on. And thats why I won´t give KYI a try at first. I think I won´t have a problem with Gurunaths kriya being much more time intensive than AYP or KYI.
Thanks to your posts I think I will soon mail a Hamsacharya of Gurunaths Kriya who teaches here in my area close to Cologne and request initiation.
I´ve already started stretching to prepare for Mahamudra... trying to clasp my feet/toes with both hands and a leg stretched out is still really painful and I think I should wait some more days until I can do it with less pain.
So, when I´ll be ready I hope Gurunaths Kriya will work harmoniously for me.... :) |
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2014 : 12:48:18 PM
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HI Orangesky, when it comes to Mahamudra that one was murder for me as well, Just to let you know it can be done without the legs completely straight, you can do it with legs bent to your comfort the main thing is to give them just a little stretch in the straight positions, no straining.
Over time you will get there, It might take a couple of years though so do not be discouraged. In the meantime you will still be getting the benefit. |
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orangesky
Germany
39 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2014 : 02:04:20 AM
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Hi Experientialknowing,
nice to know that the legs don´t have to be completely straight . Thank you. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2014 : 7:44:20 PM
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Hi orangesky,
thank you very much, you are welcome :) Back then I loved the reports of Yogananda, most probably it comes from there ;)
Peace and hf |
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RSS
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2014 : 05:37:36 AM
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I had a thought as to why some people have trouble with mantra meditation. This idea came to me while doing hours of chanting om into various chakras the other day. Afterward, I had nothing but good feelings for hours. Unlike when I do deep meditation with "I am" for 20 minutes and want to start taking antidepressant drugs afterward.
If it is not the mantra itself ("I am" vs. "om") then I am thinking it may have something to do with the fact that in deep meditation there is no target to focus on. The stuff I was doing, had a target, a point (a chakra) to focus the mind on during all the om chanting. With deep meditation there is really no tangible target. The concentration or point to focus the mind on is a word or sound that is not tied to a physical point on the body. Maybe the mind doesn't like that.
I thought about trying an experiment; chanting "I am" into various chakras for a few hours like I was doing with "om", but decided not to because I just don't want to feel like crap for 2 days if I'm wrong and it turns out to be the mantra itself that is the problem. |
Edited by - RSS on Mar 02 2014 06:04:06 AM |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2014 : 07:13:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RSS
I thought about trying an experiment; chanting "I am" into various chakras for a few hours like I was doing with "om", but decided not to because I just don't want to feel like crap for 2 days if I'm wrong and it turns out to be the mantra itself that is the problem.
Hi RSS,
Alternatively (instead of localizing "iam"), you could try the DM procedure (without localization) with "om" for your experiment.
Omsat
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RSS
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2014 : 08:02:45 AM
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Omsat,
Good idea. Using "I am" scares me to the point of not even wanting to try the experiment. |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2014 : 08:10:52 AM
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Hi RSS
Extreme sensitivity to mantra meditation here. Chanting or meditating for extended periods is occasionally possible with om namah shivaya and have to watch for overload there too. Om alone for less than a minute is sometimes okay. With other mantras there seems to be an immediate experience of mild to moderate distress.
Having recently learned to meditate while doing 'The Presence Process' course, there is limited experience here. In that meditation, we're instructed to use a mantra. For me, the mantra is only occasionally employed and experienced like a mild electrical shock to my nervous system. Mantra was sometimes used, on as needed basis, to loosen up compulsive thought activity. When used sparingly in that way, no overload was experienced.
love
parvati |
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rce
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2014 : 08:31:58 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by RSS
If it is not the mantra itself ("I am" vs. "om") then I am thinking it may have something to do with the fact that in deep meditation there is no target to focus on.
Hi RSS!
Yogani's solar centering technique given in Lesson 368 locates the mantra at the solar plexus. Here is the link: http://www.aypsite.org/368.html
Just another piece of info...hope it helps. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2014 : 09:06:15 AM
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Hi RSS! What is the benefit of targeting specific chakras vs. the "don't target anything" approach of AYP? Also, I wonder if targeting specific chakras can potentially be dangerous since, without guidance, one can easily target the "wrong" chakra and create even more unbalance. As you probably understood from my basic question, I am a beginner here...  |
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2014 : 09:11:01 AM
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I AM might have meanings buried in your mind that you are not fully aware of, best to leave it alone for now I would say. Have you tried Te, Va, Su, in each center?
Te to the centers left, Va to the centers right, Su dead center in, well the chakra? When done correctly a physical feeling in the center is felt.
In the tradition you were initiated in there is writing said to be Lahiri Mahasayas that explains practicing Kriya without placing japa in the centers leads to negative or tamasic practice.
I have experimented with this and can affirm it does lead to tamasic practice. I can also confirm that placing Om in the centers does lead to an a large amount of energy and increased vitality where as not doing so leads to lethargy.
The mind always needs something to focus on, until it implodes, dissolves, or becomes more interested in bliss which is the honey pot of it's own demise.
The way of Kriya is the way of the venus flytrap, mind is the fly, Kriya practice the stalk of the plant and bliss the closing mouth of the venus fly trap. When mind is caught in this way and ceases to be, it is without the starteling blinking out component but that can occur also. Even so this s a loving willfull surrender in extreme bliss in emptiness.
When ones Kriya becomes like this it is addictive and mind not only willingly surrenders the reigns but looks foreward to doing so and this is exactly how one practices with desire to do so.
Until then the minor addiction is present but the boss is slumbering.
There are many ways to turn mind inwards. Lets side track a bit with a practice I know as if that term can ever apply to Zen and a little personal history, maybe some value will be gleaned?
Zen has several methods most people are not even aware of to work with mind including breathing methods like bamboo breath. Most think of Zazen as watching the breath or koans, there is more but it takes research to discover and a Japanese friend formerly head of Acupuncture in Japan who has been practicing since WWII helps also.
A Simple form is watching breath but where you watch from is important. One sits, one watches breath, one places hands in such a way as holding an egg, one places breath beneath the navel in the body not the hands where the hands naturaly rest when sitting.
Eyes are half closed, many things may be seen and are allowed to move on, keeping interest in the described practice.
One breathes from this place one watches from this place beneath the navel, that is all mind blinks out on it's own. If this part is ignored and one is of the egocentric idea of working from lofty heights of higher centers than there lowely gut they will find monkey mind as there companion.
Here below the navel is a seat of stable mind to work from.
This practice led me to absolute stillness and silence, many times and was also broken by the slightest whisper of impulse so the impulse is observed and I would resume this practice.
This practice is not easy, I started with 5 minutes and eventually worked my way up to 30.
When the still point is experienced the self can catch quite a fright the first time when the room is recognized as it always has been and that is empty. All this time the jumble of thoughts and emotions which is what mind is were filling this empty room, yet they were never really there at all. How lonely, how quiet. How familiar. Now what? All of potentiality is there, all it takes is an impulse.
With the impulse under the impulse thought is generated and mind machine the perpetual motion machine starts up again, ah but witness self is no longer sleeping and mind and emotions and ego are being observed, the boss is awake he has stopped sleeping. The boss is aware he is aware.
When the boss is awake the next time or the next time after the next one sits and mind blinks off the fear impulses do not rise so quickly, familiarity breeds lack of impulse to condition.
Ths leads to a different way of seeing life, grass is more green, skies are more blue, all is just as it is and perfectly as it should be moment by moment, and this is the after effect of zazen.
Sounds great but for me this lead to Trouble.
RSS we have communicated privatly and I mention this publicly so you can now follow where this is coming from and going, this little zen side trip that on the surface appears to be hijacking your thread.
While this practice was going well Kundalini which I have always been aware of decided to make a big showing. I took a large jolt of Kundalini electricity and heat in one sitting that caused the body to get a strong erection of all things and threw me into a kensho state of bliss.
This as far as I was concerned was not welcome and ruined my otherwise perfect sitting.
From this moment on Zazen would always lead to Shakti doing as she pleased.
Unfortunatly this was not being directed properly and caused pain in my spine to the point where I had MRI's taken and was told my entire spine had swollen facet joint indicitive of arthritus.
Walking was nearly impossible at age 38 I was using a cane to walk. My poor wife would have to rub the base of my skull for hours sometimes so I could function without migraines. Her good karma is the size of Mount Fuji !!
It took 4 years of not doing anything at all just to live normaly again, the next thing I knew an otherworldly visitation by Lahiri Mahasaya and I start practicing Kriya. Sure enough the Kundalini gets off the chain again!!
Ah but tihs time I have the tools and more so it is not an issue now.
Follow up MRI's now show no evidence of the previuos condition and flexibilty is better than when I was in my 20's. No Pain. No Cain.
Shakti is very active but has a path to work in now, that I learned hw to listen to her, which led to kechari and release from migraines.
This is not about me though, this is about RSS and his supposition concerning point of focus for mantra.
RSS is writing maybe the mind does not like not having a target, I am explaining in my experiential way that this is so.
Now to talk out the other side of mouth. Mind does not need target when it is preconditioned by other practices first, or the boss is in a certain place of familiarity with mind and minds absence.
Mind is afraid of being found out for the misbehaving child that it is when Dad comes home and settles the children everyone gets along better.
Before Dad does the child knows they have done wrong and is in agony wondering what is going to hapen imagining all kinds of scenerios until it is lovingly disciplined, then it is happy and cooperative and when mature thanks the parent for there loving guidance.
But first the boss needs to wake up, and become aware the child is running around causing disharmoney,then the boss needs to grow into being a father, the child does not want the parent to wake up because then they will be found out. So from this there can be much fear.
Mind has many layers and strata. Fear can come out as feeling like sh*t for a long time a good run, running away makes the child feel better no? But eventually the boy needs to come home.
I AM, may not be the best way. It all depends on the parents relationship with the child. Even after the Boss is awake becoming good at being a Father takes time.
quote:
Originally posted by RSS
I had a thought as to why some people have trouble with mantra meditation. This idea came to me while doing hours of chanting om into various chakras the other day. Afterward, I had nothing but good feelings for hours. Unlike when I do deep meditation with "I am" for 20 minutes and want to start taking antidepressant drugs afterward.
If it is not the mantra itself ("I am" vs. "om") then I am thinking it may have something to do with the fact that in deep meditation there is no target to focus on. The stuff I was doing, had a target, a point (a chakra) to focus the mind on during all the om chanting. With deep meditation there is really no tangible target. The concentration or point to focus the mind on is a word or sound that is not tied to a physical point on the body. Maybe the mind doesn't like that.
I thought about trying an experiment; chanting "I am" into various chakras for a few hours like I was doing with "om", but decided not to because I just don't want to feel like crap for 2 days if I'm wrong and it turns out to be the mantra itself that is the problem.
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