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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 27 2014 : 09:58:25 AM
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In Alcoholics Anonymous, there's a tradition of sponsorship. That is, a sponsor leads a newcomer through the 12 steps, and acts as the go-to person for their fledgling sponsee. The idea is that the sponsor has more experience, and therefore the wisdom, to guide their apprentice in the craft of sobriety and spiritual development.
To cut to the chase, I've tried the modality--being both a sponsor and sponsee, and I don't like it. Something doesn't sit right with me. I think what it boils down to is that I highly value autonomy and adulthood. I don't want a new parent, or a designated figure that is vertically above me. And I don't want to be that for someone else. That's why I like the lessons of AYP. Each one ends with the same sentence: "The guru is in you." So, to transpose in AA terms, I would say: "The sponsor is in you."
However, I don't go around trying to convince people to abandon sponsorship. I'm not anti-sponsorship. I'm just non-sponsorship. Big difference. But, last night I got approached at a meeting by a fellow member, and he asked: "Who's your sponsor, Bodhi?" Then I basically said: "Well, I don't have one, and I don't sponsor others, and here's why [see 2nd paragraph]."
That spurned a lively discussion about the matter, and at one point, he finally said: "I just think you're being selfish. I think you don't want to help people. You're afraid to trust another person." I was super-calm at the moment, and I just paused, and I said: "Well, I live with two other AA guys, both of which are fairly new, and that seems to take a lot of trust." And he quickly replied: "I'm not talking about paying rent. I'm talking about sharing your emotions." And I don't remember exactly what I said, but the gist was: I share my emotions with a lot of people, especially my closer friends. I don't need a designated person to achieve that. I look 360 degrees and find people everywhere, in which I can achieve varying levels of trust and emotional disclosure.
He kind of concluded by saying: "Well, do what works for you. Be yourself. But call me if you want to talk more about it." Then we hugged, and it was a positive experience, undoubtedly.
I've spent a couple years in AA now, and been to lots of meetings, and done "service" positions, and it's given me a good chunk of time to really contemplate and consider what alcoholism (addiction) is, and what the best solution is. I think AA has some effective methods for treating the issue, but I also think AA misses the ball on certain key points. Using AYP and other spiritual resources (including my own invisible intuition), I've had to create and refine my own program, which isn't exactly a textbook example of the 12 steps as prescribed.
What I really want to do is create a group, website, and resource that is, more or less, "AYP for Addicts". I don't know if Yogani would endorse or oppose it...maybe if I stipulated that it was independent of the main AYP website, and that Yogani neither endorses nor opposes it, he might sign off on it. What I would do is basically extract, emphasize, and further develop certain AYP lessons that touch upon addiction, and how addiction can be transformed to a higher level of functioning through devotion (bhakti) and other AYP practices (meditation, spinal breathing, samyama, karma yoga, emotional re-direction, etc.).
I've just grown tired of seeing lots of comrades relapse, and turn their "self" into an enemy, and resign themselves to being diseased souls. And I've grown tired of seeing other spiritual practitioners bash the ego, and strip spirituality of its color by speaking in abstract and esoteric terms. I think that vitality, versatility, and a fluid radiance are needed to bring this crusade to life. I think the purpose of living is to bring heaven to Earth, and to make it a paradise, but it's nigh impossible to accomplish that if we're operating on a mental template that forever keeps a distance between God and self. Self is the conduit, vessel, and unique expression through which God shines in each person. Collectively, that composes a tapestry of majestic and breathtaking beauty, and we just have to let go of the obstructions which weigh us down.
So, I'm just curious to hear anyone's feedback, especially those who have been active in AA (or active in sobriety--no alcohol or drugs).
Unity. Wisdom. Strength.   |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2014 : 10:41:00 AM
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Feels like hijacking the intention of your subject.
I've worked with people who have limiting beliefs and those who have phobias to a lesser or greater degree. I've read widely on addiction and therapies which included real life case studies.
I discovered one key facet about any belief that is causing harm. It isn't causing enough harm. In other words the addict doesn't want to give it up. They already know that it is going to lead to horrible consequences, but that isn't enough of a problem to outweigh the advantages. Sometimes the addict just has to go to the point at which they decide enough is enough. That can range widely from person to person.
The idea of a coach is fine to some extent, but the coach mustn't have any stake in the work. Neither should they offer advice. Their value is in listening and reflecting back thoughts just like the witness does. It lets the addict see the thought as it is produced. The coach must ensure no comment is made and no language other than 'clean' language is utilised-even body language is picked up unconsciously as commentary. That's a big ask of any human that doesn't have wear tights and have a big 'S' on the chest.
So, if we see addiction in someone we generally find it resonates with our own particular addiction. This is what I found during therapy. A client would often bring up the muck from my own mind. I then had to sort that out to be any use to the client. There is hardly any point in trying to deal with arachnophobia in a client if spiders scares the heck out of the therapist. It was at that juncture I discovered I was working on myself all the time. The clients were just an excuse. Sometimes it was just nice to know some people were worse off than I was. There you go, that's an admission, it made me feel better, or at least not as alone with fear.
I think that people have to find their own way here, or wherever they are meant to go. Its sobering (no pun intended) to discover that a lot of creative effort is wasted on trying to force, or other wise cajole people into changing behaviour.
So I think that what SRM and many Gurus have said is apt. That is to work on yourself and forget the outside world except when it presents itself, then deal with that because its usually a self problem anyway.
TGIIY isn't an externality. In other words you can't put the guru in someone else, it is always and only in you. The mistake is believing that its possible to recreate that somehow and instil that discipline in some way. Instead it just is. When the fruit is ripe etc.
Anyway, maybe that helps. |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2014 : 10:46:49 AM
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Alcoholism runs in my husband's family, and my husband is just one of those people who, once he's had one drink, isn't able to stop. He had an experience some 14-odd years ago, that caused him to quit drinking. He stopped cold, and he's been absolutely steadfast to his commitment ever since. He never went to AA. He never asked for support. He just decided to stop, and he did it.
Some people are fiercely independent. They see both the role of "the helper" and the role of the one being "helped" as subtle prisons.
It seems possible, even likely, that a person could form an attachment (addiction) to their help group that is just as entrenched as the original addition they're trying to cure. The addiction just gets transferred from a chemical substance to a kind of emotional state/interaction. That's not freedom.
When people decide they want to be free, they'll do it all on their own. It's the only way they can. |
Edited by - whippoorwill on Jan 27 2014 10:53:23 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2014 : 11:05:24 AM
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Its that 'dead stop' that shows that the person no longer needs the addiction as a crutch or excuse.
Food addiction is an interesting subject. When people get to the point that they are unhappy with their bodies which tends to be a specific weight give or take a few ounces. They then begin yo yo diets until the weight has decreased before putting it all back on. This cycle of happiness and suffering is an alternative to something deeper. Its recreation of a sort, an alternative lifestyle.
One option is to push a food addict beyond their normal 'uncomfortable' weight. The resistance to eating beyond that ideal 'bad' weight-even by a few ounces-is obvious. They are actually happy in the cycle and don't wish to break it. The dietician becomes an unwitting player in this game, praising and denouncing in equal amounts. The addict thrives on the attention and emotions inherent in the cycle. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2014 : 11:44:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Feels like hijacking the intention of your subject.
I've worked with people who have limiting beliefs and those who have phobias to a lesser or greater degree. I've read widely on addiction and therapies which included real life case studies.
I discovered one key facet about any belief that is causing harm. It isn't causing enough harm. In other words the addict doesn't want to give it up. They already know that it is going to lead to horrible consequences, but that isn't enough of a problem to outweigh the advantages. Sometimes the addict just has to go to the point at which they decide enough is enough. That can range widely from person to person.
The idea of a coach is fine to some extent, but the coach mustn't have any stake in the work. Neither should they offer advice. Their value is in listening and reflecting back thoughts just like the witness does. It lets the addict see the thought as it is produced. The coach must ensure no comment is made and no language other than 'clean' language is utilised-even body language is picked up unconsciously as commentary. That's a big ask of any human that doesn't have wear tights and have a big 'S' on the chest.
So, if we see addiction in someone we generally find it resonates with our own particular addiction. This is what I found during therapy. A client would often bring up the muck from my own mind. I then had to sort that out to be any use to the client. There is hardly any point in trying to deal with arachnophobia in a client if spiders scares the heck out of the therapist. It was at that juncture I discovered I was working on myself all the time. The clients were just an excuse. Sometimes it was just nice to know some people were worse off than I was. There you go, that's an admission, it made me feel better, or at least not as alone with fear.
I think that people have to find their own way here, or wherever they are meant to go. Its sobering (no pun intended) to discover that a lot of creative effort is wasted on trying to force, or other wise cajole people into changing behaviour.
So I think that what SRM and many Gurus have said is apt. That is to work on yourself and forget the outside world except when it presents itself, then deal with that because its usually a self problem anyway.
TGIIY isn't an externality. In other words you can't put the guru in someone else, it is always and only in you. The mistake is believing that its possible to recreate that somehow and instil that discipline in some way. Instead it just is. When the fruit is ripe etc.
Anyway, maybe that helps.
Second this wholly. My work with people is really ongoing work on myself. Anything I see in others I can detect in myself. You would think that having a heart attack is enough of a warning sign to give up, say, smoking. Sorry folks, it isn't. It is not that there is missing intelligence about consequences. It is just that one is simply not ready to change. What is the stimulus for change? From my perspective, Grace. In any case, for any material/emotional/mental/spiritual progress, the person needs to be ready - everyone in their own time. Nothing can be forced on another.
The intention to begin a group is noble. But the arrogance of "I am tired of this and that, and can do it better" may need a bit of inquiry and surrender. 
The only thing to do is to chip away at our own limitations that are projected into the world. Quoting a great man - "Be the change you wish to see."
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2014 : 1:20:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
The intention to begin a group is noble. But the arrogance of "I am tired of this and that, and can do it better" may need a bit of inquiry and surrender.
LOL! Splendid. Thank you.
I guess Yogani should have re-considered and conformed to the Transcendental Meditation movement, where mantra meditation is practiced, and the guru-disciple relationship is still in full form. How arrogant of him to start his own website--diverging from the norm and offering a "better" way. I can't imagine that he ever echoed sentiments like: "I'm tired of the guru-disciple paradigm. I'm tired of systems that don't include a more comprehensive array of practices. I'm tired of watching people suffer when I might have a better solution to offer." No, not him. He's pure humility. Not a scratch of the rebel archetype in that one.
God, the arrogance, the ego, the absurdity of these people that go against the grain!
We should just "surrender" and be subservient to "divine will". And by the way, who exactly is acting as the medium of that divine will? OH, wait! It's us! Yes, you and me!
In all seriousness, for me, surrender is not subservience, nor conformity, nor passive acceptance of current conditions. Surrender is an active process of engaging the flow, and embracing one's inner calling. For me, it happens to be addiction, recovery, and the role that spiritual practices play in that realm.
Surrender is change. Surrender is being true to the nature of potentiality and manifestation, which involves dreaming, and taking actions to achieve those dreams.
I love these forums and AYP because of the radical nature of its presentation and autonomy. But if I was wanting a more guru-like, hand-holding path, I would buy into sponsorship, or something more traditional, where initiation and discipleship are involved.
For me, it's important to clarify and expound upon that surrender nudge. Surrender means something quite different to me.
Thank you again. Your comments strike to the heart of the matter.
(I'm going to respond to Karl and Whippoorwill's excellent posts soon! Thank you all!) |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2014 : 3:28:05 PM
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2014 : 09:23:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by whippoorwill
Some people are fiercely independent. They see both the role of "the helper" and the role of the one being "helped" as subtle prisons.
I can certainly relate to that observation. Right now, I'm living with two friends from AA, and I have been helping one of them with rent money, and I'm starting to feel the drain. I'm reaching the stage of "tough love", where I'm saying: "OK, enough is enough. You've gotta pull your own weight."
quote:
Originally posted by whippoorwill
It seems possible, even likely, that a person could form an attachment (addiction) to their help group that is just as entrenched as the original addition they're trying to cure. The addiction just gets transferred from a chemical substance to a kind of emotional state/interaction. That's not freedom.
When people decide they want to be free, they'll do it all on their own. It's the only way they can.
True--the momentum towards freedom is an inward momentum, but here we are on the AYP forums: posting, exchanging, finding a kind of digital satsang (not to mention the retreats). So, doing it "all on their own" does not exclude a community, unless you're a super-solitary person and don't care much to interact (which is fine with me). But my yearning for freedom has prompted me to find other people who are after the same thing, and I follow techniques which have been handed down by the masters. I haven't been able to do it all on my own.
Also, I realize I can't escape being entrenched or addicted to something or someone, even if it's just my family (or my lone self). In fact, in the first lesson of AYP, Yogani talks about being addicted to the pursuit of divinity and ecstatic bliss. So, I would say the addictive desire remains, but the object of devotion/addiction changes.
That is one of the main points I want to emphasize in an AYP for Addicts group, because AA says that the root of alcoholism is "self-centeredness" or "selfishness" (like a poison), which I disagree with. The core of the disease is actually a pure desire for union and transcendence, which will inevitably involve connecting with other beings on an intimate level, and with Being itself.
We don't have to cure ourselves as much as we have to reveal the seed of the desire.
Thank you for the feedback and experience.  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2014 : 10:03:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
So, if we see addiction in someone we generally find it resonates with our own particular addiction. This is what I found during therapy. A client would often bring up the muck from my own mind. I then had to sort that out to be any use to the client. There is hardly any point in trying to deal with arachnophobia in a client if spiders scares the heck out of the therapist. It was at that juncture I discovered I was working on myself all the time. The clients were just an excuse. Sometimes it was just nice to know some people were worse off than I was. There you go, that's an admission, it made me feel better, or at least not as alone with fear.
So, so true. Thanks for sharing that experience.
When I was seeing a counselor in San Francisco, I realized: he can only take me as far as he's gone himself--no further. And even then, no amount of emotional purging, or self-inquiry, or empathic, heartfelt one-on-one talks, would replace the fact that I still have to live life and be vulnerable to taking risks. And that's what it's about...taking worthwhile risks and riding the wave to heavenly glory.
Also, Karl, I think you will highly enjoy this:
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_o...ivation.html
It's got a spiritual edge to it, but it's also about economics. (I don't want to diverge the topic, but it's definitely relevant). The speaker believes people are motivated by 3 key factors:
-Autonomy (an ability to move freely without being controlled)
-Mastery (getting better at something)
-Purpose (contributing to a broader whole in a meaningful, useful way)
I think that's why Yogani's subtitle to the Deep Meditation book is "Pathway to Personal Freedom." |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2014 : 11:30:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
That is one of the main points I want to emphasize in an AYP for Addicts group, because AA says that the root of alcoholism is "self-centeredness" or "selfishness" (like a poison), which I disagree with. The core of the disease is actually a pure desire for union and transcendence, which will inevitably involve connecting with other beings on an intimate level, and with Being itself.
We don't have to cure ourselves as much as we have to reveal the seed of the desire.
Famed Swiss psychologist and esonaut ("inner explorer") Carl Jung agrees with you.
In his 1961 letter to AA founder Bill Wilson, referring to an alcoholic man they both knew, Jung wrote:
"His craving for alcohol was the equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God.*
How could one formulate such an insight in a language that is not misunderstood in our days?
The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path which leads you to higher understanding.
You might be led to that goal by an act of grace or through a personal and honest contact with friends, or through a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism."
=
"Emphasis mine".
And per that emphasis -- that's exactly where AYP comes in, I would say.
On the Living Unbound website, we have a resource article about addiction and Twelve Step programs, which includes a yogic perspective on the Twelve Steps, written by Yogi Amrit Desai, founder of Kripalu.
That yogic perspective concludes with the statement:
“Those whom we call addicts are simply intense seekers of bliss who have gotten stuck in repetition, looking for the right thing in the wrong place. When we let go of the self-image we used to identify with, we find behind it the experience of unity we’ve been seeking.”
To which I would add:
What we call addiction is simply one severe set of symptoms emanating from belief in fragmented perspective. Releasing fragmented perspective is the key to wholeness in ongoing experience (including all the other good stuff that comes with it, i.e. ongoing peace, oneness, loving, conscious harmonious relationships, freedom from judging self and others, etc. ).
And that's where frameworks such as AYP, along with letting go of fragmented perspective on an ongoing basis, help to integrate wholeness in ongoing experience (aka "samyama as a way of life", as we've discussed at AYP retreats), and therefore to ongoing freedom from addiction and other symptoms of fragmented perspective -- what Yogani terms Oneness.
And so, I like your thinking here, in this overall topic, very much.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2014 : 1:41:59 PM
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Thank you, Kirtanman. That is really fantastatic and refreshing. I applaud what you've done on Living Unbound, and I would like to follow suit.
I like your language choice when you say "fragmented perspective". It makes me think of pieces that have been shattered, and scattered, from their original wholeness. And what's more fragmenting than to believe that my little self is separate from God. To make an enemy of oneself is to surely fragment reality. Therefore, the only sane option is to embody the Oneness of both self and the Whole, and to follow a path which is uniting the two.
And thank you for this quote--which sums it up perfectly!:
“Those whom we call addicts are simply intense seekers of bliss who have gotten stuck in repetition, looking for the right thing in the wrong place. When we let go of the self-image we used to identify with, we find behind it the experience of unity we’ve been seeking.” |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2014 : 2:19:45 PM
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Hey Bodhi,
I'm down with anything that brings spiritual practices to addicts. I don't think the AA way of constantly identifying with labels "I am an alcoholic" and the sense of alcoholism (or any other addiction) being an "incurable disease" is totally true.
I completely agree that basically, addicts are just seekers. The worse the case of addiction is, the more deeply out of touch they've gotten with their own inner divine nature and source of happiness.
Meditation actually brings all the things one needs to overcome addiction: You learn to watch your impulses without following them, you find an inner source of happiness and bliss rather than needing substances, you open up beyond a very limited sense of self, you find real love inside yourself, you learn to stop resisting your emotions and face what you feel.
It doesn't happen overnight, but over the years of practice, compulsions just become increasingly powerless lacking any ability to control you.
Best,
josh |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2014 : 8:31:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Thank you, Kirtanman. That is really fantastatic and refreshing. I applaud what you've done on Living Unbound, and I would like to follow suit.
I like your language choice when you say "fragmented perspective". It makes me think of pieces that have been shattered, and scattered, from their original wholeness. And what's more fragmenting than to believe that my little self is separate from God. To make an enemy of oneself is to surely fragment reality. Therefore, the only sane option is to embody the Oneness of both self and the Whole, and to follow a path which is uniting the two.
And thank you for this quote--which sums it up perfectly!:
“Those whom we call addicts are simply intense seekers of bliss who have gotten stuck in repetition, looking for the right thing in the wrong place. When we let go of the self-image we used to identify with, we find behind it the experience of unity we’ve been seeking.”
You're welcome, and we agree here, completely.
Fragmented perspective is the only thing that's in the way, and the only thing that makes the illusion of duality seem real.
Regular daily-life duality is of course what happens, but it's happening within non-duality, aka wholeness, or oneness --- which is what most people do not experience consciously, and which ongoing practices, observation and adjustment of perspective help us to experience consciously.
In any moment fragmented perspective is absent, wholeness is present -- regardless of the form of the moment.
That's why, in my experience, release of fragmented perspective heals all suffering -- and, if suffering returns, fragmented (aka illusory) perspective has returned.
Practices, including watching our own mental activities, and noting the differences between living presence and memory-based reactions are the tools that facilitate this letting go into the wholeness that's ever-present -- again, in my experience.
Thanks for starting this thread, Bodhi -- good stuff!
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NoDogma
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2014 : 11:23:43 PM
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I looked at the title of this thread early morning when I was still sleepy and thought you were going to say you're addicted to aypsite and end up spending too much time here and that's affecting your day to day life :-)
I like the idea you're proposing but I have following reservation. I might be wrong about this because I have not done any study on the subject. While I was not a complete addict (meaning I would break for weeks without any withdrawals), I used to drink alcohol on most of the evenings to let go of the stress (never during day and that made sure it didn't affect my work). Looking at my own experience, I feel that an addict is more likely to overdo these practices (call it zest) and land in troubled spot. During the 3-4 months of my early trouble in this path(11/2011-03/2012), I actually used alcohol to numb myself every evening (my therapist was worried enough to tell me to take diazepam and was ok for me to use alcohol since that was working). I know some people who have lost years of their lives because of overdoing (they did not use any substance). If an addict gets into such overdone practice, (s)he might go back to A for relief.
So, how do you make sure they don't land into trouble from overdoing (especially in the cases when they start these practices about the same time as quitting) ?
On the other hand, if an addict starts these kinds of practices while (s)he is still using the substance, does it smoothly and in control, then it is likely to help them reduce the substance and eventually quit it. The reason being they will find that internal bliss and will not need the substance.
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Edited by - NoDogma on Jan 29 2014 12:17:53 AM |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2014 : 05:20:58 AM
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Wonderful contributions
Thanks everyone! |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2014 : 05:22:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by NoDogma
I looked at the title of this thread early morning when I was still sleepy and thought you were going to say you're addicted to aypsite and end up spending too much time here and that's affecting your day to day life :-)
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2014 : 06:08:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by karl
So, if we see addiction in someone we generally find it resonates with our own particular addiction. This is what I found during therapy. A client would often bring up the muck from my own mind. I then had to sort that out to be any use to the client. There is hardly any point in trying to deal with arachnophobia in a client if spiders scares the heck out of the therapist. It was at that juncture I discovered I was working on myself all the time. The clients were just an excuse. Sometimes it was just nice to know some people were worse off than I was. There you go, that's an admission, it made me feel better, or at least not as alone with fear.
So, so true. Thanks for sharing that experience.
When I was seeing a counselor in San Francisco, I realized: he can only take me as far as he's gone himself--no further. And even then, no amount of emotional purging, or self-inquiry, or empathic, heartfelt one-on-one talks, would replace the fact that I still have to live life and be vulnerable to taking risks. And that's what it's about...taking worthwhile risks and riding the wave to heavenly glory.
Also, Karl, I think you will highly enjoy this:
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_o...ivation.html
It's got a spiritual edge to it, but it's also about economics. (I don't want to diverge the topic, but it's definitely relevant). The speaker believes people are motivated by 3 key factors:
-Autonomy (an ability to move freely without being controlled)
-Mastery (getting better at something)
-Purpose (contributing to a broader whole in a meaningful, useful way)
I think that's why Yogani's subtitle to the Deep Meditation book is "Pathway to Personal Freedom."
Interesting video thanks. I'm not sure if I agree or not ? |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2014 : 9:50:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by whippoorwill
It seems possible, even likely, that a person could form an attachment (addiction) to their help group that is just as entrenched as the original addition they're trying to cure. The addiction just gets transferred from a chemical substance to a kind of emotional state/interaction. That's not freedom.
When people decide they want to be free, they'll do it all on their own. It's the only way they can.
True--the momentum towards freedom is an inward momentum, but here we are on the AYP forums: posting, exchanging, finding a kind of digital satsang (not to mention the retreats). So, doing it "all on their own" does not exclude a community, unless you're a super-solitary person and don't care much to interact (which is fine with me). But my yearning for freedom has prompted me to find other people who are after the same thing, and I follow techniques which have been handed down by the masters. I haven't been able to do it all on my own.
Yes exactly. You said what I couldn't figure out how to put into words.
There's a community of sharing here that is incredibly valuable. But what people do with this treasure is up to them. That's what I mean by "all on their own." If that makes any sense…
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Also, I realize I can't escape being entrenched or addicted to something or someone, even if it's just my family (or my lone self). In fact, in the first lesson of AYP, Yogani talks about being addicted to the pursuit of divinity and ecstatic bliss. So, I would say the addictive desire remains, but the object of devotion/addiction changes.
Do you think devotion and addiction are the same? I think that addiction comes from a sense of lack, while devotion comes from fullness - from love. I think it is possible to overcome all addiction by replacing the sense of lack with love. (Although I haven't quite managed it myself yet. I still buy chocolate.)
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
That is one of the main points I want to emphasize in an AYP for Addicts group, because AA says that the root of alcoholism is "self-centeredness" or "selfishness" (like a poison), which I disagree with. The core of the disease is actually a pure desire for union and transcendence, which will inevitably involve connecting with other beings on an intimate level, and with Being itself.
We don't have to cure ourselves as much as we have to reveal the seed of the desire.
Wow. Yep.
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Edited by - whippoorwill on Jan 29 2014 9:53:54 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2014 : 05:05:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
I'm down with anything that brings spiritual practices to addicts. I don't think the AA way of constantly identifying with labels "I am an alcoholic" and the sense of alcoholism (or any other addiction) being an "incurable disease" is totally true.
Right! It can be yet another identity trap, can't it? That's why, when we go around the room and introduce ourselves with the token: "Hi, my name is ______, and I'm an alcoholic," I always say it a sing-songy voice with tongue-in-cheek. The tone is often more telling than the content.
The identity is like training wheels that can be stripped away once I realize the futility of drinking alcohol. A change in behavior does not have to be a resignation to being an inherently dysfunctional person. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water, you know. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2014 : 05:33:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by NoDogma
So, how do you make sure they don't land into trouble from overdoing (especially in the cases when they start these practices about the same time as quitting) ?
On the other hand, if an addict starts these kinds of practices while (s)he is still using the substance, does it smoothly and in control, then it is likely to help them reduce the substance and eventually quit it. The reason being they will find that internal bliss and will not need the substance.
Overdoing in practices is remedied by self-pacing. The good news is that, in my experience, overdoing in practices (sadhana) is far less detrimental than overdoing in drug/alcohol use. These practices are powerful, but not really dangerous. Drugs/alcohol are much more inherently dangerous, but not nearly as powerful. Powerful in the sense of bringing lasting transformation, that is.
On this note, the zest for spiritual practices has much more long-term implications than a zest for drug/alcohol use, which is usually more of a short-term solution, or sedative, to the gnawing thirst for permanent union. A preview vs. the full movie. I'll take the full movie.
Re: what you said about still using substances and starting practices, that hasn't been my experience. I stopped using, had a kundalini awakening, then started practices. But, I've read about others using practices to help them quit (while actively using), so it can't be ruled out. But the toxicity in the nervous system can nullify the positive effects of Deep Meditation, so it's a catch-22 situation. I had to let go of one thing to get the other. But I fully honor and recognize that everyone's transition will be different. And actually, I've quit other minor habits (smoking cigarettes, for instance) because they were dulling the good vibes of stillness. I'm still refining my routine. So, I think you've got a good point, now that I think about it. It's all a matter of gradual release.
Thank you for contributing, and Godspeed. Keep the lighthouse in sight.
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Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jan 30 2014 05:36:47 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2014 : 05:51:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by whippoorwill
Do you think devotion and addiction are the same? I think that addiction comes from a sense of lack, while devotion comes from fullness - from love. I think it is possible to overcome all addiction by replacing the sense of lack with love. (Although I haven't quite managed it myself yet. I still buy chocolate.)
I think devotion arises from a sense of lacking. And once devotion is set in motion, the wholeness deepens. But, if there wasn't a sense of lack in the first place, why would there even be a need for devotion? God, like a clever magician, has cast us away from Herself, so that we may embark on the adventure of being re-united with Her once again.
Therefore, addiction is devotion that has gone awry. Devoted to little things that don't matter much. So, I have to re-devote to the Big Thing that matters most.
Thank you for reminding me that love is the answer. Love shall prevail. And you are a shining example of that love. |
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