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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 13 2014 : 06:48:51 AM
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Over the Christmas I forgot to give my Niece and Nephew their envelope for the second year running. I felt embarrassed about this and felt a level of shame. So I decided to send the following letter to explain my inquiry process and something about shame in general.
My Niece is my God Daughter, this was assigned to me when she was baptised and so the letter also serves to look after her spiritual well-being to some extent.
They are 16 and 17 years old.
Dear Hxxxx and Jxxxx 27th December 2013
Once again I have omitted to pass over the Christmas envelope and for this I am sorry.
Since you are both interested in psychology I will attempt to give an account of how I view this, hopefully you will find it of interest, if not you can shoot me next time you see me.
In terms of shame, guilt, self-judgement, self-criticism.
Prior to Christmas Eve I was thinking of both of you and how I would need to organise the envelopes. It was the easy job and so all the other presents and stuff took priority and then in the preparations of the day the envelopes got forgotten about.
When I realised this the following day I felt some shame and guilt and was criticising myself for yet again forgetting to organise the gifts to you both. With the work I am doing at the moment I was able to observe this shame, guilt and self-criticism within the body/mind, feel the effects of it and change it to feelings of compassion and love for myself.
I am explaining this because the latest research shows that this process is extremely beneficial for everyone and is in fact quite new research in the field of psychology.
Neurobiology explains it something like: when this kind of thing happens the thoughts trigger neurons to fire in the brain. If there is strong emotion associated with the neurons firing then this firing extends to the next neuron and the next and so on depending on the intensity of the emotion.
If this kind of situation happens regularly these neural pathways become established and the firing happens more and more easily and we become prone to negative responses such as shame and guilt.
Now they say that some levels of shame and guilt are a good thing, they say there is healthy shame and unhealthy shame and the same with guilt.
For instance, shame and guilt can be motivators for people to comply with the rules of society that allow us to live in a relatively harmonious way.
But, when shame and guilt are excessive or toxic a person can withdraw or become depressed or confused or easily fall into low mood etc..
What the latest research has shown is that we can pair another set of neurons to fire alongside an established pattern and thus change the way we perceive and deal with situations like this in life.
So if shame is experienced and felt in the body, we can, by understanding the mechanism of how it works, introduce an attitude of kindness and self-compassion to oneself.
By introducing this consciously as we feel the shame, or whatever emotion we are working with, the neural firing changes and instead of feeling the debilitating stress of shame we can feel instead self-kindness and self-compassion.
Why is this important?. Well as human beings it has been shown that we are actually hardwired, in our neural networks, to think negatively, we have what is called a “negativity bias”.
This is something that has developed over thousands and thousands of years in order for us to survive the dangers of life. We have a much greater chance of survival if we think of the things that might go wrong instead of focusing on the things that might go right. So we are, in general, 5 times more likely to think negatively about something than think positively about it.
Whilst this has served us well in the past and still serves us well in many circumstances. In today’s life situations and with our more evolved brain, the applications of this process can be very detrimental to our mental health. It becomes detrimental when we apply it to our emotional life.
Shame and guilt as a motivator:
Motivation can certainly come from the fear of being shamed or of feeling guilty and so this can be a motivator to either do something or not do something. This runs through our whole life on a daily basis. This is no doubt why it has been said that there is such a thing as healthy shame and guilt.
When shame and guilt are excessive or toxic they can also be motivators but can also introduce anxiety, depression, low mood and all sorts of other things into our lives.
It has been shown however that self-compassion can be an even healthier motivator. Instead of doing something out of a fear of feeling ashamed we can be motivated through a sense of “what is healthy and good for me and others” instead.
As this is practiced more and more, and it can be quite subtle work, the neural firing becomes established in a new way of firing and we can begin to feel more love and understanding for ourselves and others. In effect we become happier.
There is much research and information on all of this kind of stuff. You can google it yourselves if you are interested or I can point you to more reading and practices, or just leave it as it is. Of course you may think this is all hogwash and of no interest and that’s ok too, whatever!!.
At the end of all of this, I did forget to give you your Christmas gifts and I am sorry, but I am replacing the shame and guilt for self-kindness and self-compassion and also compassion for any stressful thoughts either of you may have being having about the situation, if any. Of course you may not have noticed #61514;.
All the best, gift enclosed.
xxxxx
I met them both yesterday and they both said they got a lot out of it and were very grateful, so that is why I am posting it here, in case it is of use to anyone here  |
Edited by - Sparkle on Jan 13 2014 06:54:36 AM |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2014 : 07:45:10 AM
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So beautiful, Sparkle! How lucky they are to have you around! Thank you for sharing.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2014 : 11:55:45 AM
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Omg this letter is something!
Beautiful!
We can never have enough self compassion
Indeed they are lucky to have you as an uncle
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2014 : 9:47:58 PM
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| Thanks kami and maheswari, you are very kind |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2014 : 06:41:43 AM
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I was speaking to a few people about shame last night and was informed about Brene Brown and her work.
Here is a link to a TED talk entitled "Listening to Shame"
http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brow...o_shame.html
I have to admit I wept at times during the video.
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mil
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2014 : 3:11:23 PM
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I like the way you summed up this process. I do a lot of that, holding two states of consciousness at the same time (i.e. shame and compassion) I interpret it to be how you describe it here. Re-training the neural pathways.
Could you please post some of the resources that you would pass along.
Thanks for the post |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2014 : 05:22:47 AM
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Hi Mil
Thanks for your interest.
There is an article which I think you might enjoy on the subject written by Linda Graham.
http://lindagraham-mft.net/resource...toxic-shame/
This is what I would have passed if I had been asked.
Thanks |
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mil
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2014 : 3:25:36 PM
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| Looks like it sums it all up. Thank you for following up. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2014 : 4:13:10 PM
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Yes, I think it is a good paper.
The one thing missing though and which is often missing from these therapy driven papers is "inner silence".
If one considers the pairing of neurons and looks at replacing a negative such as shame with a positive such as loving kindness or self-compassion. One could also look at allowing the awareness of shame and the felt sense of it in the body to drop into silence - as per Samyama.
Or we could do both, we could be in touch with self-love in replacement of shame, all within the embrace of inner silence.
This, I think, is a truer and more complete way and one that embraces so much more than the simple re-pairing of neurons.
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mil
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2014 : 5:27:03 PM
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| Yes I follow you completely. I agree it is a critical component of true healing of the whole being as opposed to only the neural pathways. It clearly goes much deeper. Thanks for the addition. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2014 : 07:47:18 AM
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As I explore shame further it has occurred to me that the feeling of shame when it is explored in meditation is an overall body hue which feels like sort of mist within my body. It is not unpleasant, it is more like a cloak and is calm and even comforting.
I am not talking here of an acute shame attack that can occur if I am embarrassed in a situation, this can definitely be uncomfortable.
It has been described by others as the "swamp of shame". So it could be like being in a swamp, which might be pleasant in a certain way but does not allow for much movement or freedom.
Something else I came across recently is that shame activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the same system that is activated through meditation and is calming and peaceful and releases hormones such as oxytocin.
When I read this, something clicked, it was the similarity between some nice feelings I might get during meditation and the feeling of shame in the body.
This led me to a conclusion that maybe shame can be held in place through meditation practices because it is similar in its effect. I am not saying they are the same, but for me at least, there is enough similarity for the shame not to show itself as something different, if I was not looking for it.
The antidote to shame is self-compassion and very often self-compassion is something that meditators miss. This has been the experience of many people I know who are long time meditators but who have missed the self-compassion bit. I think shame is in the same boat.
I wondered too why I was avoiding the invocation of deities like say the Holy Spirit or Christ Consciousness or tuning into that aspect in people like Mother Meera. Instead I was relating to Mother Meera very much as a person, with her human flaws etc, in fact it was her flaws that made her attractive to me, there was more bite and realness to our relationship.
I can see the link now between the invocation of deities, which imbued me throughout with a lovely peaceful energy and the shame state I described above. It was like one was masking the other and it meant it was preventing me from releasing something within that was detrimental i.e. shame.
Now that I can differentiate between the two it is not such an issue.
Would be interested if anyone else is working with shame and how they experience it.
Thanks
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2014 : 04:53:01 AM
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Dear Sparkle
I undersrand self compassion as forgiving myself which is something very important. ..I m working on that ...
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2014 : 12:31:03 PM
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Hi maheswari
Interesting that you link self-compassion with forgiveness. Wondering how you perceive forgiveness. How does it manifest in you and how do you go about forgiving in relation to self-compassion?
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2014 : 1:33:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
Dear Sparkle
I undersrand self compassion as forgiving myself which is something very important. ..I m working on that ...
I agree completely. If one can forgive themselves (and everyone else) for everything, then they are definitely "enlightened". |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2014 : 2:40:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
Dear Sparkle
I undersrand self compassion as forgiving myself which is something very important. ..I m working on that ...
I agree completely. If one can forgive themselves (and everyone else) for everything, then they are definitely "enlightened".
I also agree with this too. One could also say if one could accept everyone and themselves completely one would be enlightened and also say it about love, trust, surrender etc etc.
How it is done is another matter and at deeper and deeper levels, including taking by-passing and other traps into consideration. That's what I would like to explore.
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mil
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2014 : 2:51:09 PM
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Sparkle
I agree with others that self forgiveness and self compassion are paramount.
I also am curious about the deeper process that people experience in 'resolving" these layers that need self compassion.
I am actively working with this concept in an energetic way similar to what you describe. I feel layers of energetic mists as you call it.
I personally will reach a layer that is quite dense and needing lots of compassionate holding and forgiveness and surrender. What I find is that I will reach a place of forgiveness that seems to open up to a new layer that needs deeper compassion and forgiveness. The juggling of energies including surrender, compassion, allowance, and forgiveness is sometimes hard to process.
I have an eye on the "Presence Process" posts that have been going on because I see a connection in the process of allowing emotions to come up and allowing the holding of self compassion at the same time for a greater integration.
Sparkle you seem to be working in a way that makes sense to me. I look forward to hearing your insights. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2014 : 3:00:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
Dear Sparkle
I undersrand self compassion as forgiving myself which is something very important. ..I m working on that ...
I agree completely. If one can forgive themselves (and everyone else) for everything, then they are definitely "enlightened".
I also agree with this too. One could also say if one could accept everyone and themselves completely one would be enlightened and also say it about love, trust, surrender etc etc.
How it is done is another matter and at deeper and deeper levels, including taking by-passing and other traps into consideration. That's what I would like to explore.
Forgiveness is much harder (and deeper) than love. One can can think they love someone, but not forgive them. To truly forgive, one is not affected by past memories and fears.
I look forward to your thoughts and the group exploration of the topic. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2014 : 4:14:43 PM
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Interesting thoughts.
Is it true that you can love someone while not forgiving them? What does love even mean in this context? Love (at the moment in explorations here) is allowing. Allowing seems synonymous with "unconditional". If someone is not forgiven, it means there is a part of that person/relationship that is not allowed or is continually rejected. Is that "love"? As soon as it is seen through that the "past" is merely a thought occurring in the present, it is no longer consequential. It (and everyone involved including oneself) is instantly forgiven. What results is love, allowing of this moment, without coloring from the past. Until then, all concepts of love are just that - concepts.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2014 : 4:16:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
To truly forgive, one is not affected by past memories and fears.
Past memories and fear are how we learn. Only a fool is unaffected by past memories and fears. If I touch a hot stove, and it burns my fingers, it is precisely that memory which grants me the experience, and therefore the wisdom, to refrain from touching a hot stove again. Wisdom is the culmination of learning-based experiences. Wisdom also occurs spontaneously via intuition, but intuition is married to all previous experiences, even if through the collective unconscious. There's no way around it.
Forgiveness is not forgetting; nor is it a continued tolerance of harmful behavior (either on the giving or receiving end). Forgiveness is an integration of past experience with the freshness of Now, in a way that is intelligent, rational, loving, and accountable. You can forgive someone and still keep them at a distance. I'm doing that with my father, because he's on a destructive course that won't help him, or me. Some doors have to be shut. Tough love, you know.
It's critical and of paramount discernment that I listen to my past experience so I can interact with people in wise ways. |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Feb 02 2014 4:17:15 PM |
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mil
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2014 : 4:30:16 PM
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Is it true that you can love someone while not forgiving them? What does love even mean in this context? Love (at the moment in explorations here) is allowing. Allowing seems synonymous with "unconditional". If someone is not forgiven, it means there is a part of that person/relationship that is not allowed or is continually rejected. Is that "love"? As soon as it is seen through that the "past" is merely a thought occurring in the present, it is no longer consequential. It (and everyone involved including oneself) is instantly forgiven. What results is love, allowing of this moment, without coloring from the past. Until then, all concepts of love are just that - concepts.
Kami
I completely agree with your statement. What I don't understand is how you would apply such a wonderfully simple concept to the confusing territory of repressed subconscious content. What does the process of unveiling and bringing to the place of forgiveness and ultimately allowing love look like?
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2014 : 8:15:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mil
Is it true that you can love someone while not forgiving them? What does love even mean in this context? Love (at the moment in explorations here) is allowing. Allowing seems synonymous with "unconditional". If someone is not forgiven, it means there is a part of that person/relationship that is not allowed or is continually rejected. Is that "love"? As soon as it is seen through that the "past" is merely a thought occurring in the present, it is no longer consequential. It (and everyone involved including oneself) is instantly forgiven. What results is love, allowing of this moment, without coloring from the past. Until then, all concepts of love are just that - concepts.
Kami
I completely agree with your statement. What I don't understand is how you would apply such a wonderfully simple concept to the confusing territory of repressed subconscious content. What does the process of unveiling and bringing to the place of forgiveness and ultimately allowing love look like?
Hi mil,
Thank you for the discussion. I've been going through the process of unveiling repressed subconscious content quite a bit lately. If interested check it out here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=13868
The process is of surrendering, of humility and of giving up stubborn concepts. When we ask "show me", the first step is to give up "knowing". And incredibly, not only the issue, but also the solution is also shown. By remaining innocent and not knowing, the most obvious things become, well, obvious.
Ongoing process.. Deeper and deeper explorations..
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2014 : 02:45:16 AM
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quote:
Interesting that you link self-compassion with forgiveness. Wondering how you perceive forgiveness. How does it manifest in you and how do you go about forgiving in relation to self-compassion?
i always want things/people/situations to be perfect ,as i want them to be.But in reality they are not.This clash between my ideas and how things are results in me suffering from anxiety, sadness,pushing my self too much to be in control in events....this is lack of self compassion leads to self hurting
recently i dicovered that Hapinnness is not only in accepting what cant be changed but also in forgiving . Accepting is not enough.Forgiving works better cause it comes more from the Heart.For example: forgive collegues at work who waste my time because they are not so good at their work, forgive mum for having vascular dementia, forgive mum because she always wanted others to take care of her...
i also discovered that i should forgive myself too, be compassionate with myself.Meaning forgive myself for being perfectionist , forgive my bursts of anger , forgive my tendancy for anxiety.
in short i dont want to change things and people anymore.Nor do i want to change myself.I just embrace how people are and how i am.
When you do this without expecting anything in return. (similar to Samyama, touch and release) you will notice that people and things will improve...and that i will improve , less anxiety, less perfctionism...and the Flow is so smooth !!
check this topic
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....=13932#13932 |
Edited by - maheswari on Feb 03 2014 04:11:33 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2014 : 04:03:48 AM
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quote:
I agree completely. If one can forgive themselves (and everyone else) for everything, then they are definitely "enlightened".
dont know about that ...not seeking enlightenment that is for sure
quote:
Is it true that you can love someone while not forgiving them?
forgiving does not necessarly mean that we should love this person...we might love the person or not....there is no obligation ..no spiritual high standard to stick to...we simply forgive (samyama style) so we can move on |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2014 : 06:58:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
I agree completely. If one can forgive themselves (and everyone else) for everything, then they are definitely "enlightened".
dont know about that ...not seeking enlightenment that is for sure
quote:
Is it true that you can love someone while not forgiving them?
forgiving does not necessarly mean that we should love this person...we might love the person or not....there is no obligation ..no spiritual high standard to stick to...we simply forgive (samyama style) so we can move on
What seems truer to me is that when we really forgive, love happens. And love doesn't mean we go throw ourselves on to someone; it is possible to wholly love someone and yet stay clear of entanglements with them. Or, if interactions are necessary, they become childlike, pure and innocent. Miraculously, that gradually becomes reflected by the other person as well..
But in my personal experience, it is not possible to love without forgiving. Moreover, it is not possible to forgive someone else but not ourselves. In fact, the opposite is true - if I can see that my actions were merely the outcome of the universal disease of "me vs. not me", I can let it go. Thus, the actions of the other are similarly seen through. From this arises love - for myself and all. Love and forgiveness are synonymous.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2014 : 08:36:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Interesting thoughts.
Is it true that you can love someone while not forgiving them? What does love even mean in this context? Love (at the moment in explorations here) is allowing. Allowing seems synonymous with "unconditional". If someone is not forgiven, it means there is a part of that person/relationship that is not allowed or is continually rejected. Is that "love"? As soon as it is seen through that the "past" is merely a thought occurring in the present, it is no longer consequential. It (and everyone involved including oneself) is instantly forgiven. What results is love, allowing of this moment, without coloring from the past. Until then, all concepts of love are just that - concepts.
Agreed. That is why I used the "thinking" part regarding love. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2014 : 08:46:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
To truly forgive, one is not affected by past memories and fears.
Past memories and fear are how we learn. Only a fool is unaffected by past memories and fears. If I touch a hot stove, and it burns my fingers, it is precisely that memory which grants me the experience, and therefore the wisdom, to refrain from touching a hot stove again. Wisdom is the culmination of learning-based experiences. Wisdom also occurs spontaneously via intuition, but intuition is married to all previous experiences, even if through the collective unconscious. There's no way around it.
Forgiveness is not forgetting; nor is it a continued tolerance of harmful behavior (either on the giving or receiving end). Forgiveness is an integration of past experience with the freshness of Now, in a way that is intelligent, rational, loving, and accountable. You can forgive someone and still keep them at a distance. I'm doing that with my father, because he's on a destructive course that won't help him, or me. Some doors have to be shut. Tough love, you know.
It's
I agree that forgiveness is not forgetting, but it is letting go of the past and the coloring that comes with it. Also, I see understanding as different than fear. Understanding is knowing a fire can burn me, fear is a subconscious response that keeps an animal from the warmth of a fire. Fears are obstructions that limit freedom.
I do not mean to be rude, but why is it "critical and of paramount discernment that I listen to my past experience so I can interact with people in wise ways."? Do you worry that you will be hurt? |
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Working with Shame
