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juan
Spain
34 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 18 2013 : 07:43:19 AM
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Hello everybody!
This is our first post in this forum, so we start by cordially thanking all people who contribute to this excellent site and let other people learn by sharing their experiences. We come here with a strong desire to learn, and we also hope that our experiences may help others, at least by showing them what not to do!
We are a couple at the beginning of their sixties. Some months ago, we started experimenting with marihuana in order to improve our sex life, and almost from the very beginning, its effect on me was the ability to have “orgasms” without ejaculation. This allows us to engage in sex, for hours, daily. It is like going to the gym; we don’t need to be especially excited about it, but we start our “exercises” punctually. The results we get further enhance our motivation, so we never slow the pace. And we improve every day.
We already asked for help to Yogani in a private message, and he kindly advised us on refraining from using marihuana. We are on it, we are gradually lowering our dose and, so far, things seem to continue working more or less smoothly. Now we see our “exercises” not just as a source of pleasure but as an opportunity for our enlightenment.
Yogani also advised us to post further questions in this forum, so here we are. We think that our question has to do with what is called “ecstatic conductivity”. Right now our “orgasms” may last several minutes, and we always feel something like a continuous and almost unbearable jet of energy, of pure pleasure, traversing us. But sometimes, when we are in this situation, if I touch with the tip of my fingers at some points along the backbone of my wife, something strange happens.
She experiences a jump in her pleasure, which may stay for minutes, as long as I keep my fingers touching her. The experience is very pleasurable, especially for her, but it seems that she has to pay a price, as she gets exhausted afterwards. Due to this reason we tend to avoid these “experiments”, so here is our question: Has anyone had similar experiences? Can this be controlled? Is it dangerous?
Thank you all for your patience to read so far, and for your help.
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2013 : 08:30:33 AM
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2013 : 09:53:33 AM
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Hi Juan and welcome to the forums.
What you and your partner are experiencing is not uncommon nor (in my opinion) is it anything to be concerned about unless there are increasing/ongoing negative effects. From my perspective it appears like you guys are already figuring the balance out nicely on your own. Marijuana tends to increase energetic sensitivity in people which is what I would say is what you are experiencing. Marijuana also increases staying power for many as it increases the amount of "mental space" and it is easier not to get locked into repetitive thoughts about orgasming or the amount of pleasure being experienced (which results in orgasm/ejaculation in my experience). For some the increase in sensitivity is uncomfortable, for others it is pleasurable... just depends on one's personal "make-up."
I probably should refrain from contradicting Yogani, but from my perspective (which is influenced by several years of twice daily AYP practices, twenty years of marijuana and hallucinogen use, and near constant self inquiry) it is possible to use marijuana in positive and healthy/helpful ways. It takes diligence, self awareness and a willingness to adjust (aka quit, refrain etc) as things change though and for many it can be more of a hinderance than a help (or so I've heard). For me, I've come to view marijuana as medicine, not as an intoxicant, at least in my particular situation. Having struggled with a conceptual battle around the use of marijuana for years (mostly due to other's opinions of it and a desire to align my path with those that are "proper yogis") I've come to a position in which I choose not to discourage others in any aspect of their path, no matter what it is, and instead nudge them towards personal inquiry and to question their own position (including why they have taken this position) on things like this. Our own hearts know what is best for us, it's always just a matter of tuning in to it and actually heeding the advice given. 
Again welcome to the forums and my apologies if I only made things less clear by giving a perspective that doesn't necessarily align with what Yogani has said. Always nice to have opinions on both sides of a matter though (IMO).
Best of luck.
Love,
Carson 
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juan
Spain
34 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2013 : 11:29:38 AM
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Hi Carson, thanks a lot for your quick and warm response.
When we posted our question we had some doubts about the convenience of mentioning marijuana, as this could directly lead the conversation to the dangers/benefits of cannabis and not to the experiences we are having. But we preferred running the risk, and stating this clearly from the beginning, so nobody gets disappointed if this is discovered in later posts.
Your answer confirms what we suspected: that there are no absolute truths on this issue. Of course we would never recommend anyone (especially to youngsters) to follow our path, but, at the stage we are now, we think that expecting some spiritual benefits from marijuana is something more than just wishful thinking.
I totally agree on this increasing of "mental space" that wipes out any distraction. I am not sure if the merit is all from marijuana, from the overwhelming stream of pleasure that we feel, or from a combination of the two. How focused is focused? My experience is that the focus of my perception is always narrower and narrower. No past, no future, no plans, no memories, no judgement, not saying internally “Oh my God”, no “I”, nothing. Just this motionless stream crossing through me and my partner, which dissolves the perception of “I”. And the feedback we get, in the form of increased pleasure, as we narrow the focus, is so strong that reaching this stage of “no I” is almost automatic. Could this be called meditation?
But let us leave marijuana aside and come back to our question: you said that this energy or conductivity transmission from one person to another is not so uncommon. Could you or any other friend in the forum suggest a way of managing this transmission, so my partner gets the pleasure but not the exhaustion?
Thanks again for your kindness and sharing
Juan
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Edited by - juan on Dec 20 2013 04:30:26 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2013 : 10:49:37 AM
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Hi Juan,
Sorry for the delayed reply.
quote:
Originally posted by juan
Your answer confirms what we suspected: that there are no absolute truths on this issue.
I've yet to find a single absolute truth that stands up to all inquiry. If there *is* an absolute truth, my feeling is that it is beyond possible verbalization.
quote:
Originally posted by juan
I am not sure if the merit is all from marijuana, from the overwhelming stream of pleasure that we feel, or from a combination of the two.
My guess would be that it is a combination.
quote:
Originally posted by juan
My experience is that the focus of my perception is always narrower and narrower. No past, no future, no plans, no memories, no judgement, not saying internally “Oh my God”, no “I”, nothing. Just this motionless stream crossing through me and my partner, which dissolves the perception of “I”. And the feedback we get, in the form of increased pleasure, as we narrow the focus, is so strong that reaching this stage of “no I” is almost automatic. Could this be called meditation?
Absolutely. The cessation of identification with the conceptual "I" is by definition, meditation.
quote:
Originally posted by juan
But let us leave marijuana aside and come back to our question: you said that this energy or conductivity transmission from one person to another is not so uncommon. Could you or any other friend in the forum suggest a way of managing this transmission, so my partner gets the pleasure but not the exhaustion?
The word "common" was perhaps a bit of an exaggeration in the grand scheme of things, but within a community of spiritual practitioners like what we have here at AYP, energy experiences like what you described are not uncommon. In fact, energy experiences like you describe are possible not only in person, but also at a distance through astral/etheric connections.
Regarding how to manage the transmissions, I am not an expert in any way. Perhaps others can be more helpful in that regard... I know there are least a few experts hanging around here. For me personally, I can not control transmissions that flow through. Hell, I can't even really intend them... they happen when they need to happen as long as I can "keep myself out of the way" (meaning keep my mind and personal intentions out of it). How "the other" experiences transmission seems to be more about the "receiving end" and less about the "originating end" in my opinion.
My take on the energy drain your wife is experiencing after transmission is, I would wager, resulting due to reasons similar to to why we (especially as males) experience a dramatic drain in energy when we orgasm with ejaculation. Women tend to experience a bit less energy drain unless the orgasm is very strong, very long or happening multiple times in a short timeframe. My experience is that with any "high" (strongly pleasurable experience) there will always be a "balancing low." This is why "the middle path" is considered to be the best way by many... no extreme highs, no extreme lows, just a balanced and consistent experience of inner peace.
To answer your question of how to experience the pleasure without the drop in energy I believe that there is unfortunately no quick solution. The only way I know of to do that is to purify the nervous system through practices like what AYP offers. The result of a purified nervous system is that the energy simply flows through the body... there are no dramatic ups and downs, just a flowing through of ecstatic energy. The danger (in my experience) here is that we can easily get caught up in the sensations of pleasure resulting in a subtle pulling away from present moment awareness. For me personally I had to become aware of when I was indulging in the pleasure of the ecstatic sensations in the body so that awareness wasn't pulled away from the moment into revelling in the pleasure.
Anyway, this is probably a bit wordier than it needed to be, so my apologies. Hopefully this was helpful in some way.
Much love,
Carson
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juan
Spain
34 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2013 : 2:32:34 PM
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Hi Carson,
With some delay, just some lines to convey our gratitude for your kind explanations. Of course we still have a lot of doubts (growing every day), but we don’t want to throw this burden on you!
Only a small disclaimer. When I read my posts again, I see that at first glance it may seem we are just looking for advice on how to get still more pleasure! Please understand that, in our experience, pleasure is the tool we use for narrowing the focus of our perception until reaching this state of “no I” and the subsequent flows of energy. I have tried to get this state with “sitting practices” with little results - yet, I hope. But we will keep trying and exploring!
Thanks again,
juan
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2013 : 9:47:37 PM
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Hi Juan,
quote:
Originally posted by juan
Please understand that, in our experience, pleasure is the tool we use for narrowing the focus of our perception until reaching this state of “no I” and the subsequent flows of energy. I have tried to get this state with “sitting practices” with little results - yet, I hope.
It doesn't necessarily have to be "either or"... it can also be an "and more." 
Love,
Carson |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2013 : 10:19:03 AM
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Hi Juan,
There is a natural male-female energy loop that is created in a sharing relationship (need not be sexual). My guess is that your marijuana usage maybe temporarily lowering some mental blocks that increase the flow and your wife's sensitivity. Done correctly, the loop can be very helpful for joint purification.
Your wife's exhaustion implies that you are not creating a full loop, where she is radiating, but not also drawing/receiving from you. If the two of you want to experiment with it, next time imagine a loop that goes from your heart down to you 2nd chakra/member over to her private spot/2nd chakra and up to her heart and then over to your heart. She should also imagine drawing in from you and up to her heart and back over to your heart and going around. Sort of like joint team spinal breathing.
When you get a joint loop going, you will both definitely notice. :)
Best wishes,
Jeff |
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juan
Spain
34 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2013 : 05:42:35 AM
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Hi Carson, Jeff,
quote:
It doesn't necessarily have to be "either or"... it can also be an "and more
Absolutely! The more I read on these issues, the more interesting techniques I see worth trying, but this does not mean that we intend leaving the path we follow now.
It is not a straightforward exercise; there are simply too many writings to read. And of course, telling gold and junk apart is not always an easy task, at least at the stage I am now. Fortunately, things seem to proceed on their own pace quite smoothly, at least so far. And places like AYP are a great help.
quote:
she is radiating, but not also drawing/receiving from you
quote:
imagine a loop that goes from your heart down to you 2nd chakra/member over to her private spot/2nd chakra and up to her heart and then over to your heart. She should also imagine drawing in from you and up to her heart and back over to your heart and going around
We definitely notice a flow from my 2nd chakra to hers (or, say, from lingam to yoni, in Sanskrit terms), although we don’t feel as this energy is drawn from her or from me; we rather feel it as coming from an external source and flowing through us. This is not exhausting. Only when I tinker with my fingertips on her backbone, sometimes she feels a boost in this flow and, sometimes again, this boost leaves her exhausted.
This perception is, or seems to be, absolutely real. We definitely know if the flow is on or off. But now you make me doubt about the direction of this flow. If there is a flow between lingam and yoni, we instinctively label it as going from man to woman and not the other way around. But now that the flow of this energy is decoupled from ejaculation, I am not so sure. Whether this energy is drawn by one partner from the other or tapped from an external source, the perception of direction could be just an artefact of our previous ideas.
This takes me to the loop you mention. We have had some weird, scattered experiences of this energy flowing through our chests, without sexual union, but we are not able to reproduce them at will, so I cannot say much about this. The closer to this loop we are is when we join our mouths when being in sexual union. Of course this also has a lot of symbolic content that could induce fake perceptions, but I can say that what we feel in this situation is dilution. We start as three separate entities: She, I, and this flow, but she and I dilute in the flow and there is no more she, I and flow; there is just a single, motionless stream (or maybe a motionless whirlpool?), and our perception of “I” as a separate entity just disappears. Anyway, we will try the experiment you suggest and see what happens.
Thanks again, Carson, Jeff, for your friendly help.
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Edited by - juan on Dec 30 2013 09:13:32 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2013 : 10:39:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by juan
This takes me to the loop you mention. We have had some weird, scattered experiences of this energy flowing through our chests, without sexual union, but we are not able to reproduce them at will, so I cannot say much about this. The closer to this loop we are is when we join our mouths when being in sexual union. Of course this also has a lot of symbolic content that could induce fake perceptions, but I can say that what we feel in this situation is dilution. We start as three separate entities: She, I, and this flow, but she and I dilute in the flow and there is no more she, I and flow; there is just a single, motionless stream (or maybe a motionless whirlpool?), and our perception of “I” as a separate entity just disappears. Anyway, we will try the experiment you suggest and see what happens.
Hi Juan,
From your above description, you are already beginning to experience what the experiment was pointing to... You said it perfectly with "she and I dilute in the flow and there is no more she, I and flow; there is just a single, motionless stream".
Spontaneous heart connections are actually pretty common, but the sensitivity to notice it at an energetic level is pretty rare and requires a fairly high degree of clarity. The cannabis seems to be giving you a deeper view, but remember that it can easily become a crutch. And all crutches are inherently limiting.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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juan
Spain
34 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 07:18:50 AM
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Hi Jeff,
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Having struggled with a conceptual battle around the use of marijuana for years (mostly due to other's opinions of it and a desire to align my path with those that are "proper yogis")...
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
...your marijuana usage maybe temporarily lowering some mental blocks that increase the flow and your wife's sensitivity. Done correctly, the loop can be very helpful for joint purification....
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
...cannabis seems to be giving you a deeper view, but remember that it can easily become a crutch. And all crutches are inherently limiting....
Although I put the word cannabis in the header of this thread, this was only for the sake of truth, and not for fighting any conceptual battle on this issue. And I still don’t want to engage in such a battle, but now I think that, in order to decide if this conversation is useful or maybe is better to resign, I have to give some explanations on what my position is, and knowing a bit about yours.
One year ago, if someone asked me about kundalini I would say it was an Italian dish. I did not wake up one day saying “Hey, I want to raise my kundalini, let’s smoke some pot”. The only thing I wanted was more fun in sex, and that was the reason of my first usage of cannabis, at the age of 62. Obviously, I will never say “use cannabis and you will see how your spirituality improves”, because I have no idea on why cannabis had these consequences on me.
But somehow, after a couple of funny and totally unexpected “kundalini experiences”, I got the free gift of “keep attentive on the fire in the beginning, and so continuing, avoid the embers in the end”, as is described in the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, one of the books I am using as reference. And this changed it all. This removal of mental blocks may be temporary; it may just seem that you get a deeper view, cannabis may become, or quite surely is a crutch, but this crutch allowed me to reach a new and amazing point of view. And once you are there, with or without crutches, you want to know what is beyond the new horizon you now can see. That’s why I am reading writings on spirituality like crazy, and asking for advice here at AYP.
So this may be my last question here: Does cannabis invalidate any spiritual experiences, so making any attempt of building anything on them is plain crazy? My apologies if I am wrong, but one possible conclusion, after reading also in other forums, is that AYP’s policy on this issue (if there is such a policy) is “go back to the start position, reach these mental states you mention, but without cannabis, and then we may talk”. If this is the case, I will apologize for the disturbance and walk away.
If not, I would be very grateful if you explained a little bit your words “Done correctly, the loop can be very helpful for joint purification”. You put your finger exactly in the middle of our concerns: we feel we are tapping at something really huge, and we are absolutely convinced that this is very positive and very helpful, if used correctly. “Joint purification” is a quite good way of describing what my wife and I want to do - if possible - with this gift, so we are eager to know what the procedures are.
So my question is: “done correctly” means for you just “without cannabis”? Or may it mean “when you are diluted in this mighty, overwhelming stream of energy, you should do this and that, regardless of the way you reached this stage”?
Thanks a lot for your patience reading my long texts, and receive my best wishes and my gratitude
Juan
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 09:59:45 AM
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Hi Juan,
I realize that your questions are mostly directed towards Jeff, but knowing Jeff personally I would wager that he has limited personal experience with using marijuana (feel free to correct me if I am wrong Jeff ) so perhaps I can comment a bit more on that and leave the energy transmission questions to him (who is more experienced than I am in that regards).
quote:
Does cannabis invalidate any spiritual experiences, so making any attempt of building anything on them is plain crazy? My apologies if I am wrong, but one possible conclusion, after reading also in other forums, is that AYP’s policy on this issue (if there is such a policy) is “go back to the start position, reach these mental states you mention, but without cannabis, and then we may talk”. If this is the case, I will apologize for the disturbance and walk away.
First thing that came to me when I read the above was that trying to "build" on or recreate any experience is tricky and comes with a lot of baggage. Experiences come and go, and I have yet to find anything, literally, that I can build a foundation on. Anything we use as a foundation is in essence conceptual and limiting and personally I've had to learn to be okay with not having anything firm to stand on.
Second thing that jumped out at me was your inference at the goal being to reach a specific mental state. I've found that with a goal that "tight" we limit the possibility for the outcomes to be even more profound than a transient mental state. Something perhaps worth taking a closer look at... what is the "end goal" (for you)?
Lastly, regarding marijuana use, here's my take on it... Personal experience can never be invalid except from a conceptual standpoint (our own or other's). It's like telling someone who has had their first samadhi experience while high on magic mushrooms that this experience is meaningless because it was psychedelic induced. But as many of us know, the first samadhi experience, especially when experienced as a dramatic contrast from "normal human perception" (as often happens with entheogenic substances) is usually one of those "before/after" type of experiences that we often define ourselves by/with. Often the experience of "clear perception" (whether psychedelic induced or not) *feels* so right/real that we begin to question everything we have believed prior to this experience simply because life, when experienced with clear perception, feels more real than "normal everyday life" no matter the reason we found ourselves in that state.
As mentioned in the quote of mine from your last post, I struggled for a long time because I felt that as long as I was using marijuana, my opinions, insights, and even my path were invalid. I've since come to understand that every path is entirely unique and that, at least for me, using marijuana is very helpful for smoothing out "the unfolding." I've learned to relax my own self-judgements about it and trust that if/when the time comes to drop it, it will happen as it needs to. I've tried to force myself to stop using several dozen times... none of which have lasted longer than about 6 months. The reason none of these attempts have "taken" is because marijuana use is still required here. And trying to align my path with others (those here at AYP included) was more harmful (in my opinion) than using marijuana itself. So I continue to use it, with open eyes, an open heart and clear intentions until such time as it feels right (to me) to stop.
I would suggest that it may be worthwhile to look closely at any sense of needing others to validate your path. For me this was the key. Once I realized I felt like my path was only valid if it aligned with others' who I respected/put on a pedestal, then I was free to investigate into whether or not I could feel okay with having no validation from others. And once I was able to release any sense of need for validation I was free to simply walk my path without the fear of "doing it wrong." Liberating to say the least.
Anyway, speaking of "long texts".... 
Much Love,
Carson
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 10:15:53 AM
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Hi Juan,
I did not mean to imply any judgement on the cannabis usage. I have many friends who have found it helpful and useful to use it and other things like mushrooms and shaman based plant mixtures. They can definitely open a door to a broader perspective. The point I was trying to convey was more that it can create a perspective of "two" different states. Sort of normal and "high" state, mentally locking in that they are somehow different. Ultimately, one moves "beyond" states. But, anything that helps with greater intimacy and love with your wife has to be the right direction. That "oneness" that you described above is the definitely the right direction. So, my suggestion is to enjoy, but somewhere down the road you will probably notice that with ongoing clarity you can do it without the crutch. That the two of you could always do it, but that you just weren't noticing it before.
Regarding the "loop", the flow is natural and there are two most likely possibilities for the drain. Your wife has an issue/obstruction that is being hit/going thru purification, or you are giving some "intent" consciously (or subconsciously) when you are touching her which is "pushing" the flow. I will send you a pm to follow up with some more details.
Happy New Year to you (and everyone),
Jeff |
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juan
Spain
34 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2014 : 11:26:27 AM
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Hi Carson, Jeff,
This disclaimer may be unnecessary, but please, don’t see in my previous post any shadow of complaint of being judged! The reason of my message was just that I saw two threads in our conversation and wanted to kill the thread “is cannabis wrong or right?” to focus on the thread “what can I do with this energy?”. And now another disclaimer: of course I see that, more sooner than later, I should abandon cannabis and walk on my own feet.
Carson, I see that you had, time ago, the same doubts that I have now (or, rather, I had, thanks to your advice). I should quote your full message, but this would make mine unacceptably long, so I will focus in a couple of ideas.
What is my “end goal”? Well, my sight is quite limited to fix an end goal; right now I have only an immediate goal: I have received the gift of this energy flowing through me and want to get the best use of it. I don’t want to spoil it if I head to the wrong direction, that’s all. And you said something that fits perfectly here: “look closely at any sense of needing others to validate your path”. Because the fact is that my path became a bit bumpy after I started this communication. As you did time ago, I also had perceived that my own self is an obstacle in this path, and now that my own self and judgements are getting a bit out of the way, subtly I put in his place (sort of) the judgements of others! (This said with all my love and gratitude to both of you!).
Jeff, you also said something very useful to us: “anything that helps with greater intimacy and love with your wife has to be the right direction. That "oneness" that you described above is definitely the right direction”. So what we will do is just leaving the process to unfold by itself as it has done until now, with the confidence that, using love and surrendering as compass, we will not derail.
This said, we think that the best we can do now is just seeing how this evolves on its own. But it is really reassuring to know that we can count with a helping hand from people like you. Thanks, thanks a lot
Juan
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juan
Spain
34 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2014 : 05:01:53 AM
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Hello again!
I think I have a new clue on what’s happening with these “energy transmissions”. As I put my question here some days ago and got your help, now I would like to share our experience here, just in case it may help others.
At the stage we are now, we feel this steady jet of energy, or whatever it is, traversing us when we are in sexual union. What my partner feels in this situation is dilution, as if her self is melting and expanding in what she perceives as an unbounded space. Needless to say that this is an extremely pleasant feeling.
But the other day, being in this situation, I touched her backbone with my fingertips. She experienced the jump in energy intensity she uses to feel, with the subsequent jump in the perception of pleasure. But now she felt a quite noticeable difference: instead of this dilution and expansion, she felt her self as if dragged to a drain. This perception is also pleasurable, not scary at all, but she definitely prefers the other one!
Our interpretation is that what I do with my fingers is sucking back from her the energy that flows through our lingam and yoni. This reinforces my suspect that, even as we can perceive when the flow of energy is on or off, feeling which is the flow direction is a bit tricky.
I hope this may help others, but of course any comments/suggestions to help us are welcome!
Thanks and love to everybody
juan
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Edited by - juan on Jan 13 2014 10:04:18 AM |
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Cannabis and energy flow between partners
