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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 2:55:09 PM
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I'd like to open discussion on two practices that fall under Advanced Yoni Mudra Kumbhaka in which I have not exactly come across through a brief forum and book search. Nothing comes to mind from the SFP of Yogani book either. Instead of opening two separate posts and risk overlapping conversations, I'll present it all here. To the point, I'm progressing on the energy practices as instructed in the lessons and books, and have encountered some difficulties, more precisely with the kumbhaka and dynamic jalandhara additions of A-YMK.
To clarify, I've been using the complete intermediate YMK after a fully enhanced SBP and before DM with the ordinary mantra, along with the rest, including standard asanas, samyama, minor customizations, other practices, etc., part of my ongoing twice daily AYP sessions.
Everything has been built up gradually over the years, coming from previous eclectic spiritual and grounding practices, and I try to stick to basics and recommended schedules even if it means missing a second session or exceeding recommended times now and then. Everything's been smooth, enjoyable, fulfilling among other things, despite some concerns and uncertainties not related here.
The kumbhaka cycles are clear enough: gentle favoring for a natural exhale while increasing the time and cycles. I'm not sure of external variables at play here, but the experience has shifted to become more fuzzy and vague.
Before, it was an easy retention towards and over the edge of comfort, whose point progressively emerged and was more clearly defined. The same thing was repeated another 2 times. It tied in with I-YMK so that an inner pull coincided with the physiological changes in the body. Now, it seems more flat, with the exact 'comfort barrier' for lack of a better term more pliable, with the pull effect arising much too late, and rather suddenly. Yes, this would be off base, chasing experiences rather than doing the procedure, except self-pacing requires paying attention and adjusting as necessary.
A worthwhile mention is that SBP breath cycles also have slowed down so that my customized pauses and remembering to move slower now just results in overtime, whereas earlier, entrance to YMK would already be at the point of 'wanting to breathe more.'
So the question here is has anyone experienced this sort of transition? Is it a sign to either extend the cycle or begin adding more rounds? Should accompanying uddiyana be done even more subtly?
I ask this one because during my practice it's been neglected more in the past while accommodating to YMK. By my observations from swimming and diving, any muscle exertion uses up a lot of energy, and so uddiyana could be causing the sudden increase in pull. I know that focusing on the 'pulling' sensation is probably not necessary, but to me it is the primary feeling of breath retention, without which it seems like any other exercise where you're so focused or absorbed that you don't breathe very much.
The second point of inquiry is dynamic jalandhara. After reading a discussion by Kami and other members who mentioned kriya's thokar, evidently their radiant bhakti came through, since I spontaneously decided to try a few rounds of jalandhara (although it turned out to be yoni chin pump). Immediately after the 3rd round, a surge of inner dizziness came up along with a side-sweeping wavering effect, expansion of inner space, and accompanying mild nausea.
I say 'inner' because it is nothing like ordinary dizziness: the mind tends to cling to and amplify it, sense of balance is maintained, the eyes are stationary, and opening them makes it better. Anyone who has had the misfortune of experiencing benign positional vertigo will know this to be nothing like it, except for the nausea.
Now, in all the practices I've done, nothing has ever had such an immediate effect. As much as I was attracted to the idea of bastrika as a new practice, it was jalandhara actually up next, something I would have imagined to be prepared for.
Is this a normal sign of simply overdoing a practice? I was under the impression that all practices exert a strong yet uniform and progressive effect dependent on one's sensitivity, or in my case, insensitivity. Naturally, I wonder if this is really an ordinary physiological-neurological reaction, or the result of actual pranic flows.
Is it normal for a practitioner to react strongly to some practices, while to others almost not at all? Is it desirable to acclimate to such effects by repeated exposure? -or by self-pacing to the point of no dizziness?
Does the effect subside quickly with practice? Should the rotations be done really slowly, and would the rate pick up with time? If not, should dynamic jalandhara be practiced separately from kumbhaka/I-YMK? I wouldn't want to cut back on one to catch up with another. The lessons say to just move to A-YMK and shift its placement to the end of practice.
It took me a long time to regain my sense of groundedness following the encounter with mild vertigo. The brain learns of any experiences, and retains them in memory that can be accessed and replayed even if one wishes to forget. This is why so many questions are put forth, since my tendency would otherwise just say to press on. Reassurance and clarifications on these two points are appreciated.
Some notable threads relevant to the topic:
Yoni Mudra Kumbhak - mathurs
almost unconscious – Amdor
Chin Pump - Still |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 4:49:54 PM
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Hi Aum,
What do you mean by dizziness? Is it more a sense of being disoriented momentarily? Also, how do you practice chin pump - is it inhale, hold, one rotation and exhale.. Or inhale, hold, many rotations and exhale? I ask because thokor is similar but uses a mantra, each syllable placed at the chakras as the breath is drawn up; attention moves between the crown or medulla and heart center as the breath is held (kumbhaka). There is a variant where one can exhale a tiny bit of air as the head rotates down creating the knocking sensation in the heart (thokor means knock), inhaling a tiny sip as the head is rotated to the side. In this way, multiple rotations can be achieved with one main breath cycle. Eventually, with increasing pratyahara, the breath is suspended altogether - I suspect this takes years of practice..
In thokor that I practice (as above), I do tend to feel disoriented as in - lose perception of time and space, particularly when attention is completely inward drawn and moves in rhythm between crown and heart. There can also be a lot of "radiant" heat in the spine, with a sensation of expanding of being.
In any kumbhaka practice, it helps to (a) relax the chest wall at the end of inspiration, as if about to exhale (but still holding the breath), and (b) not force breath holding to a point of distress..
Also, I find the addition of AYP navi kriya to YMK to "kick it up a notch".
Of course, I would not recommend the many cycle variant or the YMK+navi kriya for anyone with over-sensitivity. They can cause serious overload issues. But for under-sensitive practitioners (and I tend to fall in this category - seem to remember you do too, Aum), it may be worth trying. Even then, I would not recommend adding both practices simultaneously...
One thing to try is to just decrease the number of rounds if the dizziness is bothersome..
Much love to you dear Aum.  |
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mathurs
United Kingdom
197 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2013 : 09:44:40 AM
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Hello Aum,
I don't know the answers to your questions but something to go by what I experience.
"It tied in with I-YMK so that an inner pull coincided with the physiological changes in the body" - This pull that you mention is it like a pulling sensation from between the brows? - if it is then that is good. I experince it too but not always. This is what Yogani says about it in the YMK chapter:
Also, in yoni mudra kumbhaka, our attention is brought to the point between the eyebrows for the entire period of retention of breath, until we go back down the spinal nerve on exhalation. In fact, we may find our attention being drawn out in front of the point between our eyebrows during yoni mudra kumbhaka. This is natural. As the spinal nerve begins to have some ecstatic conductivity, it becomes quite pleasurable to do sambhavi.
and
The pleasure naturally increases as the attention goes out beyond the point between the eyebrows. There is something out beyond the body that calls us with ecstasy. We find that the sushumna keeps going, and it is okay to go there as we are naturally attracted. What will we find there? Oh, we will find out. It is all good. If this extension of the sushumna is occurring it is okay to let our attention go the full distance of it out in front during our normal spinal breathing as well. It is a natural evolution of the sushumna, and spinal breathing. It is promoted during yoni mudra, and is only one of the many benefits of this advanced yoga practice.
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On the second point - I have never experienced dizziness after Chin Pump - maybe a bit of a spaced out feeling - but I dont practice Chin pump anymore.
After I had started YMK I definitely suffered from dizzy spells and that was not straight after practices but outside of practices and more than anything else it scared me so I scaled down and it was soon gone after a few days.
Hope this helps in some way.... |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2013 : 09:27:06 AM
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Kami, by dizziness I do not mean disorientation, but actual sensation of spinning and moving, like being on a swing that also twists or unwinds. My real sense of balance wasn't affected, as strange as that sounds, and everything immediately ceased when opening eyes, and quickly picked up again at the same intensity when closing them. I guess this resembles crossing over into sleep, where it is possible to feel both a dream image of the body, and the body itself. The nausea was the same as with physiologically-induced dizziness, when the inner ear is affected by a loose calcium particle acting like a monkey wrench in the brain & mind's perception of inertia and movement, and especially choreography of eye movement and sight.
I practice chin pump as the lessons suggest, though thanks for pointing it out since I was missing the bit about head never stopping, plus there not being the third-eye nudge. The dynamic form is after inhale, begin rotations (many, not just one) in one direction, [keep going], exhale, inhale, hold, begin rotation the other way, [keep going], exhale, and keep going depending on how many breath cycles are used. I use 3 for now, so 3 rotations in total. I learned about the various forms of thokar from Nimmis' book but have never practiced them. Sensations of expansion of being and of inner space I too experience sometimes in meditation, and I have found it relate to slowing of breath, but sometimes can occur spontaneously, and it is enjoyable. The dizziness here oddly enough was also being amplified, as if the mind couldn't help going along with it, and the inner wavering side to side, despite some motion sickness and worry about what it could mean and whether it would eventually cease.
Your (b) point is what has become more vague in practice. I defined it as gentle favoring beyond the comfort level, though the threshold has diffused since it isn't always easy to tell just how far one is taking it. This also varies depending on the circumstances, time of day, quality of sleep, previous activities and so on. I suspect variations in kumbhaka length are normal, and overdoing it does not cause harm except if one needs to self-pace. I've read one description that would be valuable to verify claiming it is even beneficial for oxygen levels, since it is carbon dioxide levels that make o2 bio-available to the body, and it didn't even speculate on prana which of course would make it that much more interesting.
I'm glad you made me look at navi kriya again. If there's one practice that my body constantly craves for, at the level of automatic yogas during the day, it's that, but I don't sense or know why. Yes, I too feel under-sensitive. I've not considered it yet since it is introduced late in the lessons, but would make a great addition in pranayama or after (can't combine it with A-YMK since Nauli would then come in).
I should point out, when you recommend a practice, the bhakti levels really take off, making me almost forget the whole deal about self-pacing. Almost. Can always count on you to raise one's spirit for practice a bit, or ten fold.
Mathurs, I describe the third-eye sensation as pressure, but I can see how it would also be described as a pull or draw towards the outside. Sambhavi activates the sensation, perhaps more readily now than in the past, but it is strongest during SBP and kumbhaka. It feels fairly neutral, not pleasurable, but it is enjoyable in the sense that it's some feedback about all the attention being placed at the ajna, like you're having some impact you can clearly sense for once. Thank you for sharing your experience on the matter, and the quotes.
I've repeated dynamic jalandhara (rather a form of yoni chin pump that needed some corrections) in the same way as before with no effect except a barely noticeable trace of dizziness and spaciness that ceased immediately. Will continue to apply it and see if it ever recurs. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2013 : 6:19:58 PM
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| The same effects were encountered. It is very likely that the same conditions favorable to seeing 'the star' are also responsible for yoni chin pump or dynamic jalandhara creating the spinning sensations. They feel like a temporary disorientation in the mind's ability to mitigate the head motion, and perhaps less so due to some energetic quality. This is based on the observation that the wavering is a combination of bidirectional spinning trying to sort itself out perceptually, followed by a gradual ceasing, and reemergence in the opposite bi-directionality as a result of overcompensation. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2013 : 8:41:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
The same effects were encountered. It is very likely that the same conditions favorable to seeing 'the star' are also responsible for yoni chin pump or dynamic jalandhara creating the spinning sensations. They feel like a temporary disorientation in the mind's ability to mitigate the head motion, and perhaps less so due to some energetic quality. This is based on the observation that the wavering is a combination of bidirectional spinning trying to sort itself out perceptually, followed by a gradual ceasing, and reemergence in the opposite bi-directionality as a result of overcompensation.
Hi Aum,
The spinning sensation may also be related to an inner ear issue that can cause vertigo sometimes.. It is called benign positional vertigo, and such movements can bring it on if there is at all a propensity for it.. Even otherwise, some of us tend to be very sensitive to repetitive circular movements (for example, the spinning exercise from the 5 Tibetan rites) resulting in dizziness.. It usually abates over time with continued practice..
Have you found any particular thing you can do to make the star appear in YMK? Seems to me that it is purely a thing of Grace, nothing I can do (increasing number of reps, longer kumbhaka, navi kriya..) to make it happen. Some days, it is seen with just shambhavi and other days not at all...
Much love to you. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2013 : 12:55:21 PM
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Yes, you're right on about the temporary syndrome, and I mentioned it in the opening post, though that resolved instantly as soon as the area cleared itself, and has never recurred since. If the area wasn't fully clear, any motion would produce strong symptoms under all circumstances, but that's not the case luckily.
I've done the 5 Tibetan Rites for some time, and do enjoy the spinning one, and have no trouble going fairly fast for the full set and regaining composure while doing the deep breathing.
The first time I've come across the Star, or at least an identical semblance of it, has been while jogging. If going a little faster than usual, at a point half-way in my route where the body's finally jumping into higher gear, a while outline or fuzzy circle appears at the center of vision. The time coincides with a spot where I'm in a forest, so the slightly dimmer light makes it much more noticeable, especially when blinking. I always thought it must be the retina being low on oxygen, but now I realize this is completely unrealistic since the body is never deprived of oxygen, but quite the opposite, using it more efficiently. When getting up quickly after relaxing, for those with normal or low blood pressure (or high positive G forces), vision temporarily 'tunnels' inwards from the outside. The effect is totally different.
In YMK, using light finger pressure on the eyes, the first time it happened was by surprise. It was golden, quite bright, clear center, and my first thought was I hope whatever this is isn't damaging my eyes with its brightness. It doesn't always happen, but the conditions most favorable to seeing it is doing YMK early in the morning after waking, after asanas, and SBP. It must be the restful sleep, combined with the body's state in the morning with moderate breath retention that's key, but even then, it may not always happen, and if so, much more rarely to such brightness. The element of grace has got to play a role for both this, and the state of inner expansion during meditation.
Love to you, Kami |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2013 : 09:36:24 AM
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What a beautiful account Aum! See, you are not that undersensitive after all.
Do update on the dizziness if and when you feel drawn to it.
Much love. |
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Advanced Yoni Mudra Kumbhaka & Sensitivity
