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Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 18 2013 : 11:15:36 PM
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Someone cited this post not too long ago that I happened to notice:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....C_ID=590#590
It got me contemplating just how much my personal perspective has changed on the awakening process. Gone are the days of thinking the awakening process would lead to some super-human state of perpetual bliss where the typical human emotional/ thought existence was transcended. Kundalini awakening is about a decade ago now and has long stopped being a perceivable feature in my life. Life has become about embracing the human experience and no longer attempting to escape from it.
Energy in fact did stop being noticeable as well. No more perceivable blocks or surges of ecstasy or bliss states, pretty normal/ mundane really from the point of view of where I thought it would go once upon a time.
No more goals for the awakening process, no visions of enlightenment on the horizon and no more craving for love or bliss. No more seeking or desires for states other than the reality that is presented now. No more ecstasy or desire to transcend suffering or to be calm at all times. No more perceiving the universe to be love only, but rather everything. No more trying to recognize what the mind isn't, the mind is seen as doing its job, letting me know what the possibilities are in each experience. No more worry about what is true or not, all has elements of both. Being and individual, at times yes undeniably individual, but also awareness of the varying manifestations of the human experience.
I would summarize awakening more in these terms now:
Awakening is a unique process for each individual with no set pattern or timeline. Awakening is a continual process rather that a concrete series of events.
Initially for most human beings it seems, the mind believes many fixed thought possibilities as absolute and concrete structures of how the world works. Traveling from one thought world to the next is the dominant experience with the corresponding emotional reactions. It can be heard in people's language as possibilities of what is occurring are expressed as certainties.
In some cases, those inclined for it, for whatever reason, go through an accelerated process of reducing this number of fixed beliefs and open their minds to a point where for some, inner energy wakes up, this may not be apparent or noticeable if it is gradual which it often is. For others it is a steady process over a lifetime and no inner energy burst is noticeable.
The inner energy when awakened quickly, accelerates the dissolving of beliefs. Energy can be palpable, physical and intense at times but eventually fades as physical resistance releases. The favoring of one experience over an other also dissolves. The mind is eventually embraced for the possibility generating thought potential that it is.
As many beliefs dissolve, being more and more consciously present in the now dominates the landscape of experience. Open to the unknown in every moment and seeing life as infinite potential in each moment. No longer resisting experiences including the experience of resisting. Life teaches what is needed through experience, thoughts lose their enticement. Possibilities replace beliefs.
The gift of this process is the capacity to be fully a human being, to live and experience all things that arise completely without resistance. To live the same normal life that you were already living. To be unique but also know yourself as one and the same as everyone else. The result is increasing compassion as everything revealed in others is also revealed within. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 04:59:03 AM
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Thank you Anthem, very sound and grounded, from my perspective.
"The result is increasing compassion as everything revealed in others is also revealed within"
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 06:02:25 AM
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| Very beautiful, Anthem. Thank you. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 06:49:13 AM
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snake
United Kingdom
279 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 08:09:37 AM
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Love it.
Thanks for sharing
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 10:56:54 AM
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Love that Anthem, wise, and true :-)
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 11:00:17 AM
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| Thanks Anthem for sharing your perspectives and experiences to date. I find such glimpses valuable as they unfold in their own unique ways. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 1:47:34 PM
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Dear Anthem,
I don't know if it's wise to share this but I will. I remember a talk given by Sidi Al Alawi in which he said: "enlightenment is a state of inner drunkness and outer sobriety but few are the ones who reach this... Most of those who are dedicated to the path of self knowledge enjoy the fruit of finding peace within themselves..."
Speaking for myself, even though I wouldn't mind the first kind of enlightenment... It's what I always craved for but after all i've been... Having more compassion and being at peace with myself are more than enough for me...
Thank you for sharing dear Anthem |
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snake
United Kingdom
279 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 5:57:28 PM
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one certain soul comes to mind on reading that
Meher Baba  |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2013 : 10:53:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
Dear Anthem,
I don't know if it's wise to share this but I will. I remember a talk given by Sidi Al Alawi in which he said: "enlightenment is a state of inner drunkness and outer sobriety but few are the ones who reach this... Most of those who are dedicated to the path of self knowledge enjoy the fruit of finding peace within themselves..."
Speaking for myself, even though I wouldn't mind the first kind of enlightenment... It's what I always craved for but after all i've been... Having more compassion and being at peace with myself are more than enough for me...
Thank you for sharing dear Anthem
Hi Ananda,
I think it is helpful that you bring this up. My original post above is in this Alternate Approaches section of the forums because it is a differing perspective from your example which is similar it seems to the traditional yoga point of view.
"enlightenment is a state of inner drunkness and outer sobriety but few are the ones who reach this... Most of those who are dedicated to the path of self knowledge enjoy the fruit of finding peace within themselves..."
Maybe this is the path for some? I used to believe that above quote as well, it was the foundation of how I thought life worked; that we were all evolving towards that. Especially looking from my view point then amidst frequent energetic experiences and states of ecstasy and bliss, it seemed a logical conclusion from how things were developing at the time. Meditation itself was blissful for years and produced bliss throughout the day when things were self paced skillfully. At some point this was no longer possible for me. I really had no choice in it, it simply stopped being viable to continue on this way. So the attachment to bliss and ecstasy had to go, the price was too high to indulge in these states.
Again, maybe this is a state that some few will "achieve" or abide in for a long time but all I can say is that I wouldn't personally trade all of reality in for this one type of experience no matter how enticing it sounds. I no longer want to rid myself of any of the human emotional experience like I once did. It is the gateway to true compassion and self (and other) understanding from my point of view. Again there was little choice in it, there was simply a time where something just switched inside and I now want whatever experience life brings my way (though not always at first), even if it is painful. I couldn't ask for a better teacher than whatever life determines I need to experience.
I remember a particular time several years back of being "drunk" with bliss, a friend of mine was telling me her concerns and it all seemed hysterically funny even though I felt for her on some level. I certainly didn't have any real understanding of how she was feeling and what she was going through, that is for sure. My treatment of others often lacked any real understanding of how and why they suffered. Life has been sure to teach me otherwise in the years since.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2013 : 12:52:07 AM
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Beautiful.. I guess this is true surrendering in a sense... Thank you for sharing your valuable insights dear Anthem... I am learning a lot from you.
Namaste |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2013 : 06:26:58 AM
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Hi Anthem
You said: "I remember a particular time several years back of being "drunk" with bliss, a friend of mine was telling me her concerns and it all seemed hysterically funny even though I felt for her on some level. I certainly didn't have any real understanding of how she was feeling and what she was going through, that is for sure. My treatment of others often lacked any real understanding of how and why they suffered. Life has been sure to teach me otherwise in the years since."
I can relate to this very well, except that I was not drunk with an obvious bliss, but rather a much more subtle experience. This is no doubt because I haven't experienced an ongoing high energy kundalini type clearing as you and many here have. I have had lots of energy experiences but overall it is as you described in your first post, a quieter and more subtle ride for me.
Nevertheless, the sense of being detached from others suffering is quite familiar to me. It is natural that we would want to go there to this seemingly nice place as it takes us out or away from our suffering, our loneliness. However, from my perspective it is not compassion.
For me compassion(and I'm certainly no expert at it) is an experience of oneness, but an embodied oneness with the suffering of both myself and others, it is all one suffering. To say that it is all an illusion is, to me, coming from this other worldly place of detachment, which can also be experienced as oneness, but detached from the reality of being a human being on this earth.
This kind of compassion has only begun to take root for me in the past year as I work more with others in being with and opening to their suffering and in turn my own.
Despite the many beautiful experiences I have had through the spiritual life, none compares with the fulfillment this compassion gives, it is finally seen for me as the reason for me being here.
For me too this compassion needs to be self-paced, personally I can only handle so much because I am completely invested in it, fully embodied as such. I see others who seem to be doing this kind of work day by day by day at a deep level and I take my hat off to them, it would be too much for me at this time.
Hope that makes sense
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2013 : 07:17:10 AM
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Hi Sparkle and Anthem,
Such beautiful words!
Is it possible that one sees everything as an illusion, but still embraces the suffering of another because that suffering is very much real to that other person? Is this how the Buddha, Christ, Babaji and others operate?
I resonate with the sentiment that enlightenment is indeed about becoming fully human. True, practices and openings can result in a sort of living in a bubble, detached from stuff, both our own as well as others'. But I see what you are describing, Anthem, to be a natural progression along the path. So, before all the practices, the ecstasy and the bliss, there was suffering. Now, after all of it, there is still suffering. What is different? From your description, it sounds like your practice now consists of dropping resistance to suffering. Yes? But as you relate to others' suffering, do you get "invested" in it, or do you remain at peace deep within?
Dropping resistance to suffering (to me) seems like seeing past it, because in reality there is no suffering. And what wells up from such intuitive knowledge is compassion, both for oneself and others.. In every story of suffering I see myself, and I simply "know" what it feels like. Yet, there is no tight ownership of it. Even suffering - mine or others, seems to be perfect, exactly what is supposed to be happening and there is no drive to escape from it. There is nowhere else I'd rather be than right where I am, suffering or not. Not sure if that makes any sense.
However, I cannot say that I'm done with practices - experiences resulting from practices (bliss, energy or overload) are welcomed in a similar fashion. Letting go of tight clinging to it all is the foremost practice.
Much love to you both. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2013 : 09:06:22 AM
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kami said:
"Is it possible that one sees everything as an illusion, but still embraces the suffering of another because that suffering is very much real to that other person? Is this how the Buddha, Christ, Babaji and others operate? "
I don't know the answer to that, but my experience of it is that I can be with a person but not have their pain trigger anything in particular in me and yet my heart is open and melting something away and this often feels raw and vulnerable.
To be honest I have never liked the word illusion as it is applied in this scenario, so maybe it is just a word thing. I have seen it used so often as a way of avoiding being engaged in the world and for avoiding taking responsibility for ones own stuff, that I have a little aversion to it
Is your understanding of illusion to do with identification and the separate self rather than everything doesn't actually exist or both?
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2013 : 10:12:07 AM
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Hi Sparkle,
To me, illusion is not that something doesn't exist, but the overlay of stuff upon it. In this context, let's take suffering - how and why does one suffer? In my (personal and limited) experience, suffering always is a result of not being in line with what is. Call it illusion or reality - whatever is happening simply is. There are many challenges and types of pain we go through - in all that, suffering arises only when we wish for it to be otherwise, i.e., resist whatever is going on. The greater the identification as the separate self, the greater the degree of suffering. In this, the illusion is the idea of or wish for a different outcome, of what can be (projection into future) or might have been (remembrance of past) and that does not exist anywhere but in the mind. Anything not happening in the here and now is an illusion because of dragging in the past or future.
I love how you describe compassion - in it but not of it. On a daily basis, I interact with people that are suffering in one way or another. And my heart melts for them - I see myself in all of that suffering. Yet, it is an illusion to me, a thing I cannot become identified with even if I want to. But I also see that for them, it is not an illusion and is very much real, and my heart rips open to feel this unnecessary suffering, even while being detached from it. There was a time when I felt I couldn't do this on a daily basis, but I no longer feel that way.
Parenting is the most incredible life experience and the greatest guru IMHO. And it this way with my kids - I see my child make a big fuss about something that I think is not even an issue. But for her, it is real and a big deal. Do I brush her off and say deal with it? No, because she is an extension of me, and even though it is illusory, I feel her suffering, even while not experiencing the situation like her. And the more I open, the more I see everyone as children, innocent in tight identification as so-and-so..
Not sure this makes any sense.
Love. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2013 : 10:16:59 AM
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While the inner peace and energy have yet to reach the levels being described here by others to meaningfully contribute to the discussion, it might still be worth saying that I very much resonate with the points brought up by Kami.
It is something that's simply true to me, and I embrace the plurality since it is all based on genuine self-expressions, each contributing to one another as part of the common striving towards wholeness.
Even during times of elation and peace (sparing my perspective on bliss), suffering of self and others is highlighted in view of various states, especially with respect to glimpses of possibilities and their contrasts. Real understanding and compassion are enhanced and encompasses others more than just one's own present condition. The now is ever more alive. Future and past become empty canvases filled with potential, especially of providing assistance and of serving higher guidance. Illusion, maya go hand in hand with this momentary altered state of pervasive duality, abundant with seeds of immanence that if cherished blossom in the promise of transcendence, and unity. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2013 : 4:17:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Hi Sparkle,
To me, illusion is not that something doesn't exist, but the overlay of stuff upon it. In this context, let's take suffering - how and why does one suffer? In my (personal and limited) experience, suffering always is a result of not being in line with what is. Call it illusion or reality - whatever is happening simply is. There are many challenges and types of pain we go through - in all that, suffering arises only when we wish for it to be otherwise, i.e., resist whatever is going on. The greater the identification as the separate self, the greater the degree of suffering. In this, the illusion is the idea of or wish for a different outcome, of what can be (projection into future) or might have been (remembrance of past) and that does not exist anywhere but in the mind. Anything not happening in the here and now is an illusion because of dragging in the past or future.
I love how you describe compassion - in it but not of it. On a daily basis, I interact with people that are suffering in one way or another. And my heart melts for them - I see myself in all of that suffering. Yet, it is an illusion to me, a thing I cannot become identified with even if I want to. But I also see that for them, it is not an illusion and is very much real, and my heart rips open to feel this unnecessary suffering, even while being detached from it. There was a time when I felt I couldn't do this on a daily basis, but I no longer feel that way.
Parenting is the most incredible life experience and the greatest guru IMHO. And it this way with my kids - I see my child make a big fuss about something that I think is not even an issue. But for her, it is real and a big deal. Do I brush her off and say deal with it? No, because she is an extension of me, and even though it is illusory, I feel her suffering, even while not experiencing the situation like her. And the more I open, the more I see everyone as children, innocent in tight identification as so-and-so..
Not sure this makes any sense.
Love.
It certainly does make a lot of sense kami, thank you for your beautiful descriptions.
The way you describe illusion is great, I prefer the statement of the separate self, simply because I have heard so much more read into the term illusion, but that's another story. Does that make sense?
I'm interested to know why you no longer feel you can be with that suffering on a daily basis now, if you want to say, what changed?
I would like to say also, in case you or anyone got the impression that I was suggesting that I don't get triggered with stuff, this is not the case, it is a continual work in progress and it seems that the more that gets cleared, the bigger the challenges that come along to present me with stuff to work on. It is much more enjoyable though
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Edited by - Sparkle on Nov 20 2013 4:19:34 PM |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2013 : 12:54:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
The way you describe illusion is great, I prefer the statement of the separate self, simply because I have heard so much more read into the term illusion, but that's another story. Does that make sense?
I'm interested to know why you no longer feel you can be with that suffering on a daily basis now, if you want to say, what changed?
I would like to say also, in case you or anyone got the impression that I was suggesting that I don't get triggered with stuff, this is not the case, it is a continual work in progress and it seems that the more that gets cleared, the bigger the challenges that come along to present me with stuff to work on. It is much more enjoyable though
Hi Sparkle,
Yes, makes sense..
What I meant to say is that a while ago, my work seemed "too much" for me in terms of dealing with others' suffering. I would be emotionally and mentally exhausted by the end of the day from what I thought was "taking on" their suffering and pain. Until I realized that such a thing does not exist - when we say we feel someone's suffering, is it not always a projection of our own stuff onto them (how they must feel, based on what we might feel in that situation)? Is there a way to know exactly what someone else is experiencing at any given point?
The Insight Dialogue guidelines help me tremendously in seeing what true compassion is. Simply practicing the "pause-relax-open" helps me see my projections of suffering and pain and to set them aside, making way for "trust emergence" and "listen deeply-speak the truth". And the more I stop projecting my (conscious and subconscious) stuff onto others, the more I can stay present for them. Actually, being able to unload to someone who is present in such a way is profoundly healing for the one that suffers.
And it is the same for me as you - never-ending work in progress. When I start noticing the "can't take more of this", 100% of the time it is because I've started projecting again; and that is fabulous stuff to look into. As you say, more and more fun. What I'm finding is that dropping the resistance to resistance is quite freeing. The compassion extended to others is extended to one's inner judge as well. Merely noticing that there is resistance and being ok with it makes everything much more Jello-like, pliable and soft.
Much love. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2013 : 7:31:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
While the inner peace and energy have yet to reach the levels being described here by others to meaningfully contribute to the discussion
I beg to differ, AumNaturel. I'm about two steps away from hopping on a plane to soak in the serene rays of your solar presence. Like a bright-lion-sun-man, you are shining in the orbit of this cosmic galaxy and roaring with silent growls. I verified this celestial, archetypal occurrence firsthand at the Michigan retreat.
This man is a liar! He is full of peace!!
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2013 : 10:51:21 PM
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Fly on down dear Bodhi, you're always welcome! The uplifting energy was indeed awesome at MI, and your spontaneous laughter and radiance are contagious.
The peace does need to bask and be forged in the calamities of this world more, and it is inspiring to see that in action through the posts of members here. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2013 : 8:46:57 PM
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Hi kami
Thank you for your very thoughtful and considered post. It set me on a train of thinking and contemplating that has caused some smoke and the smell of burning plastic from many neurons burning new pathways or old pathways not used for some time. You will only see the short version and a small bit of the long one. The longer version seems to go on and on into the “unknown”, which, I think is where it belongs. That's why it has taken so long for me to reply
The short answer is that I don’t usually get drawn into the drama of others when I am working with them and feel energised and awake afterwards, in general. Sometimes if I spend time meditating and bringing them to mind I will feel a heart connection and this can lead to a pain that is an open pain and one that is burning away in constant movement. I don’t know what this means in terms of projection in the conventional sense of the word, but I like the feeling of being connected in this way, it keeps me with them and allows for more insights on how to work with them next time.
I think your use of the Insight Dialogue instructions to Pause, Relax, Open, Trust Emergence, Listen Deeply and Speak the Truth are spot on and particularly to Trust what Emerges out of Inner Silence and the silence created between two or more people even when only one is listening in this way. This is my intention also, and it is often a challenge to stay non-directive and not give advice, or not to try and give someone else my insights, but just to trust emergence.
I love what you said about working with the resistance. I am fortunate in that I can regulate my work and take a break when needed. I find that after a couple of courses that I run I feel tired and need a break and I wonder about this and whether it is just resistance or what they call compassion fatigue, which I think is an erroneous term. There is probably no such thing as compassion fatigue.
The long answer was triggered by your use of the word “projection” and then coupling this with your previous use of the word “illusion”. Instead of making it long however I will just say this part of it.
The “unknown” or the “not-knowing” is a beautiful way of being and is, in my view, something that can permeate through everything we do and everything we contemplate, whether at the coal face of meeting another person through compassion or at the coal face of meeting the infinite oneness of everything.
I opened an email newsletter recently and found this
The Infinite One is exactly that: truly infinite and absolutely non-dual (One). So totally so that it originally has nothing to contrast itself against and thus has no means to know itself by. The One – in it’s original ‘state’ – is beyond knowledge of any kind, because without contrast of any kind, there is no awareness of any kind.
In this way The Infinite One magically and beautifully develops a mysterious awareness of itself through contrast. –Bentinho Massaro
And this reminds me of the first verse of a poem:
Love after Love by Derek Walcott
The time will come, when with elation
You will greet yourself arriving
at your own door, in your own mirror
And each will smile at each other’s welcome
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2013 : 10:01:48 AM
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Thank you dear Sparkle. Just profoundly beautiful.
This sangha is invaluable in how we help each other push our boundaries, to get past any sense of being "done" or "knowing". Your statement on not knowing is exactly what I needed to hear. I am amazed that every.single.time. that I arrive at some sense of knowing or "oh ok, this is how it is", it is pulled right from under my feet. Falling endlessly seems to be the only constant in terms of knowing, at least for someone as dense as me that cannot "get it" the first time.
I catch myself projecting often, this mind being a clever filter for all perceptions. Serendipitously, I opened a book (How to know higher worlds) to a page where the author (Rudolf Steiner) states that the student on the path must "accustom himself to listen in such a way that, while listening, his inner self is absolutely silent." See? Whatever I need is given to me again and again with no effort on my part.
Thank you Sparkle, for facilitating this opening in your kind and wise way. So grateful for your loving presence.
Much love to you. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 27 2013 : 6:38:36 PM
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Thank you dear kami
Not knowing clears away clutter of the mind for me often and then after a while I find myself looking for a "beloved" in the form of an Ishta. It's like "not knowing" is not enough, for me at least at this time
I've been devoted to one beloved or another for most of my life but it never dissolved the "self-critic" within me, it was only when I came across the work of self-compassion that these knots began to unravel and some genuine compassion for others began.
Just at the beginning stages of this.
Maybe this is the kind of thing Anthem is getting at, I don't know. Not getting caught in the "inner beloved" and the "not knowing" for the sake of getting into the gutter and finding compassion for ourselves and others.
Personally I think we can have both (but then, I don't suffer form being blissed out)
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2013 : 3:25:54 PM
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Hi
Just a comment on my comment "Personally I think we can have both (but then, I don't suffer form being blissed out)"
On reviewing other peoples views on what "bliss" is, as seen in this thread:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=13694
What I associate with bliss is generally an ecstatic bliss that has elements of euphoria in it. So apologies to anyone who may have been offended by my limited interpretation.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2014 : 9:52:03 PM
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Observations from personal experience which may not apply to anyone else. Keep in mind, that the below is just a story, like all of life. This will read a little cryptically.
A long period on the path (years) was spent associated with being "the doer", or the sense of participating in the awakening process. There were windows to clean, delusions to undo, and lots of practices being done, etc. It was closely correlated with reaching higher energetically, meaning reaching for ecstasy, love, bliss, and subtley avoiding most other emotions or using them as sign posts for action to do more cleaning, practices etc. there was an unfortuante subtle inclination to avoid the unpleasant energetic experiences/ emotions or perceive them to be undesirable problems, though this tendency remained unconsicous for a long time.
All this likely a necessary part in a process of awakening.
The next stage/ stages, for whatever reason, was moving more deeply into surrender, though it wasn't conscious at first. It occurred by seeing the futility of resistance. Surrender of resistance to all things and an embracing of all experiences, saying yes to all that arises. No shunning, or avoiding of any aspect of what is. Fear seen as the blinding dynamic that prevents knowing the truth of what is/ beingness. Fear also the catalyst for awakening further into the here/ now.
This is seen as necessary for selflessness to arise and sense of self to be seen as something that can come up and pass like every other thought. All just arises and passes in awareness. All is reduced to stillness and energy/ emotion being one and the same thing. A great story, all for fun. Enjoy your life, it's a gift for you.
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2014 : 11:53:24 AM
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| Thank you for sharing and re posting these threads. I am a relative "newbie" to energetic surges and this review on resistance, compassion, chasing bliss, and surrender are valuable lessons for me . |
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Another Perspective on awakening
