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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1731 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 07 2014 : 3:44:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem
embracing of all experiences, saying yes to all that arises. No shunning, or avoiding of any aspect of what is.
Yes, it does not seem possible to pick and choose. I can either take the lot - the bliss and the discomfort, the ecstasy and the pain, or nothing. As I go along the ecstatic thread, I find it intertwined with emotional debris and physical tensions from the past. I either cut through those OR let the ecstatic thread go. I don't see a third option.
Yogani talks a lot about self-pacing and the implication may appear to be that you don't have to run into discomfort. But is it really? I think self-pacing is more about managing discomfort, bringing it to the limit where it is bearable. Maybe I too am a special case. When I started AYP last year I was keenly aware I had 'fallen out of yoga' and I was not in a good place, nor in a good form. Some discomfort seemed inevitable to me.
Or maybe I'm just like every other AYPer? Yesterday I read a thread about the presence process. I couldn't help but wonder why so many people who'd been practising AYP found the presence process so useful (not that it's not a great piece of psychology, but AYP is so much more thorough and deep - shouldn't AYP deal with all emotional baggage?) Could it be that the presence process asks people to confront their 'demons'? It's got this 'the way out is through' slogan built in, while AYP insists on 'staying comfortable'. I'm not advanced, but from where I'm standing, it seems to me the 'staying comfortable' is more about making sure you don't crash and burn. Because dismissing every discomfort we encounter may also mean missing out on opportunities to clean up.
So I'd say your recent post is a great one, Anthem and IMO, it can well find room under an AYP heading, rather than under 'alternate approaches'  |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2014 : 9:45:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem
embracing of all experiences, saying yes to all that arises. No shunning, or avoiding of any aspect of what is.
Hi BlueRaincoat,
One of the intentions of the last post was to make the connection between oneness and the rise of selflessness though I did a poor job of it in hindsight. Perceiving oneness arises as focus on me/ I as it is located in the heart centre, dissipates to the point where focus dwells or resides with more consistency on all that is arising in the here and now (minimal focus internally). So focus no longer comes back to reinforcing I/me in the heart centre and believing this to be true. Just thought I would elaborate on that for no reason. Simply put: it is all about being still/ present in the here and now, easier said than done.
quote:
Yes, it does not seem possible to pick and choose. I can either take the lot - the bliss and the discomfort, the ecstasy and the pain, or nothing. As I go along the ecstatic thread, I find it intertwined with emotional debris and physical tensions from the past. I either cut through those OR let the ecstatic thread go. I don't see a third option.
Doesn't seem like there is a choice to me either, what is arising is going to whether we like it or not, resistance to this perpetuates and intensifies the very thing we are trying to avoid. Saying yes to whatever arises, no matter how unpleasant, is an energetic response which allows the experience to come, do its work and carry on. Once it is seen that all that happens is a gift, there is less resistance in my experience. The emotional/ energetic response to saying yes is a powerful and healing force from my point of view.
quote:
Yogani talks a lot about self-pacing and the implication may appear to be that you don't have to run into discomfort. But is it really? I think self-pacing is more about managing discomfort, bringing it to the limit where it is bearable.
You don't have to run into discomfort, it is either there or it isn't, the question is (to me): is there resistance?
Either way, self-pacing is an important concept. The ego/ thoughts invariably can get caught up in the awakening process particularly when there is all that energy that can feel so good. Too much indulging can cause a lot of pain in my experience, so self pacing is a great tool to ensure we allow things to go at the natural pace.
quote:
Maybe I too am a special case. When I started AYP last year I was keenly aware I had 'fallen out of yoga' and I was not in a good place, nor in a good form. Some discomfort seemed inevitable to me.
Or maybe I'm just like every other AYPer? Yesterday I read a thread about the presence process. I couldn't help but wonder why so many people who'd been practising AYP found the presence process so useful (not that it's not a great piece of psychology, but AYP is so much more thorough and deep - shouldn't AYP deal with all emotional baggage?) Could it be that the presence process asks people to confront their 'demons'? It's got this 'the way out is through' slogan built in, while AYP insists on 'staying comfortable'. I'm not advanced, but from where I'm standing, it seems to me the 'staying comfortable' is more about making sure you don't crash and burn. Because dismissing every discomfort we encounter may also mean missing out on opportunities to clean up.
I've never read the book, but I watched a number of youtube clips on the Presence Process and I really like what the author had to say. I don't see it as a psychological technique, but rather a way to allow energy to flow more freely. If I remember correctly, it is about non-resistance and changing the perception of emotional pain into nourishment, a great message imo.
I feel there is correlation between the two. AYP is saying allow things to arise, return to the mantra, PP is saying allow things to arise and stay present. I know there is more to both but just simplifying this aspect. Self-pacing is more about not overdoing practices I believe and not necessarily commenting on avoiding discomfort in general, but pointing to excessive energetic/ emotional discomfort as a sign post to scale back efforts. I could see how this could lead to confusion. I say do both. :)
All the best!
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Zanyan
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2014 : 2:19:50 PM
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Beautiful, Anthem  |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1731 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2014 : 2:37:42 PM
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Hello Anthem
Yes, your previous post was leading to the idea selflessness/sense of self. I chose to focus on resistance vs. accepting some level of discomfort because this is where I am at the moment, i.e. how to manage the discomfort and progress as efficiently as possible without being derailed. I guess 'selflessness' and 'sense of self' are the most important issues for you at this stage?
Your comparison between AYP and PP is pertinent. I agree that the two complement each other, and the number of AYP-ers doing both are proving the point.
I believe there already is an aspect of yoga that does exactly what PP does. That is mindfulness - “allowing things to arise and stay present” - isn't it? And it's probably one of those practices that Yogani considers to arise by itself, when doing the practices he laid out in the lessons. For that reason he probably chose not to emphasise mindfulness (that would be my guess). So perhaps when AYP-ers discover it, it comes to then under the PP label? That at least is my reason for not rushing to buy the PP book even though so many have found it helpful.
You are making an interesting point about resistance vs. surrender and “allowing the experience to come, do its work and carry on”. You know, I think self-pacing and dropping the resistance gradually could be seen to be the same thing. If all resistance dropped at once, all the emotional baggage from the past would come flooding in one big tsunami and it would be unbearable.
So you are still getting a sense of progress on your path? I'm glad this thread was revived, I think I understand better what your path is. What you are describing seems to be a necessary part of spiritual development. And the only thing Yogani would not agree with is dropping meditation – sorry Yogani for putting words into your mouth (again). 
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2014 : 10:04:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
Hello Anthem
Yes, your previous post was leading to the idea selflessness/sense of self. I chose to focus on resistance vs. accepting some level of discomfort because this is where I am at the moment, i.e. how to manage the discomfort and progress as efficiently as possible without being derailed. I guess 'selflessness' and 'sense of self' are the most important issues for you at this stage?
Hi BlueRaincoat,
I don't really think about this very often. It was just a passing observation about how sense of self comes to reside in the heart centre and how it can move back to being perceived everywhere which is referred to often as oneness. I thought to share it in case someone found value in it.
I see selflessness as a result of consistently seeing through the mental (and energetic) construct or belief in having an identity.
quote:
Your comparison between AYP and PP is pertinent. I agree that the two complement each other, and the number of AYP-ers doing both are proving the point.
I believe there already is an aspect of yoga that does exactly what PP does. That is mindfulness - “allowing things to arise and stay present” - isn't it? And it's probably one of those practices that Yogani considers to arise by itself, when doing the practices he laid out in the lessons. For that reason he probably chose not to emphasise mindfulness (that would be my guess). So perhaps when AYP-ers discover it, it comes to then under the PP label? That at least is my reason for not rushing to buy the PP book even though so many have found it helpful.
Yes I agree, mindfulness is at the root of PP.
quote:
You are making an interesting point about resistance vs. surrender and “allowing the experience to come, do its work and carry on”. You know, I think self-pacing and dropping the resistance gradually could be seen to be the same thing. If all resistance dropped at once, all the emotional baggage from the past would come flooding in one big tsunami and it would be unbearable.
I couldn't say if this theory is true or not, but in my experience, life brings experiences along to our awareness when we are ready to start seeing. If we don't listen or see what needs to be seen, situations and experiences tend to repeat until we do.
I have found being very present in these moments to be a the mechanism for seeing more deeply and becoming more conscious of formerly unconscious habitual reactions to life. In other words, how to awaken more fully to every moment.
quote:
So you are still getting a sense of progress on your path? I'm glad this thread was revived, I think I understand better what your path is. What you are describing seems to be a necessary part of spiritual development. And the only thing Yogani would not agree with is dropping meditation – sorry Yogani for putting words into your mouth (again).
If by progress you mean becoming more conscious or more awake (for lack of a better word), then yes that has been an ongoing experience that has never slowed. There is constant learning (which is just seeing or becoming aware) and moving more consciously through life.
The difference over the last few years is that the journey was formerly a more stationary, methodical experience, of moving through the world of thought. Meaning I sat, I meditated, yoga, I did inquiry, and many types of techniques to move through my belief system (identification), and it was all perceived at the time to be actively engaged in, meaning having a sense of being the driver of it which wasn't true but seemed that way. It was profoundly a spiritual experience and more of a solo experience of moving through an energy awakening that seemed to coincide with an acceleration of seeing through limiting beliefs at an increasing rate.
It moved from there into a re-embracing of all the emotional experiences that I had learned to avoid and very unwillingly at first. Becoming a full functioning, full feeling human being all over again, there was no choice in it, but this time without the many beliefs that used to keep things going perpetually in circles. It was no longer about a separate "spiritual world" but the real world. It was predominantly active release of resistance or surrender, other techniques would arise from time to time but in a fluid ever changing way and when it did outside of surrender, it was mostly forms of inquiry. Constantly becoming aware of the too numerous to count ways that there was still resistance to life in some capacity but more noticeably in the emotional and physical ways that resistance was maintained. It was learning to listen to every emotional experience. It was a transition from the perception of being an active participant in the awakening process to life directing everything experienced and flowing with that.
Surrender still happens, but everything just arises and passes eventually so now being increasingly conscious or present in every moment is the dominant experience and embracing the experiences that life is gracious enough to bring this way. Maybe that will change soon, who knows? It is now seen more as a shared experience with everything and everybody else like this moment with you right now and sometimes others that are less pleasant at first.
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Zanyan
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2014 : 10:26:46 PM
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| Thank you for sharing this, Anthem. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1731 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2014 : 2:53:45 PM
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Hello Anthem
Thank you for your thorough reply.
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem
If by progress you mean becoming more conscious or more awake (for lack of a better word), then yes that has been an ongoing experience that has never slowed.
I would say 'progress' is whatever each of us deems to be progress. Isn't yoga the ultimate subjective experience?
My own theory about self-pacing vs. dropping resistance was rooted in subjectivity. The experience I'm having these days fits that theory - every time I relax and turn my attention inwards, I get these waves of energy sweeping though me. It feels great, but there is discomfort in the aftermath - all aches and pains I recognise from the past, so I know there is cleansing going on. I am tempted to drop all resistance and surrender to this energy, but if I do these relaxation sessions for too long, there will be not-so-pleasant consequences. So my self-pacing at the moment consists of not dropping the resistance all at once - something like that
Please do keep us posted. It will be interesting to hear how your journey goes on.
Best wishes |
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