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Chaz
USA
129 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 24 2013 : 8:07:20 PM
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After over 5 years of exploring different meditation techniques and working with my consciousness and the mind, two and a half years of that being with AYP practices, I'm still having a problem that I'm determined to fix. The issue is I'm still not entirely at peace with my mind. One of the reasons I began doing inner work was to find harmony in all aspects of my being. I can say I've taken some big steps in the right direction, I feel Presence much more strongly and I'm becoming more conscious overall, I can meditate fairly effortlessly even without any object of meditation such as mantra or breath and feel detached from my thoughts, many times I can feel a perfect love bubbling up inside of me expanding out into infinity. There are moments of peace and feelings of unity. It's all very beautiful and gives me a lot of hope and inspiration to keep going further, but you can imagine how frustrating it is that intermingling with such a perfect essence is an impure mind. I may find my Self sitting on a throne of love and bliss but still my mind can snatch me up, and it can get pretty ugly.
I just don't get it. I want more than anything for my mind to dissolve in the love that is in my heart. The contents of my mind can sometimes make me feel so ashamed, it doesn't always reflect what I feel in my heart. My mind can be so mean and ugly, towards myself and others. Negative thinking goes on, thoughts of misfortune, judgement, anger, violence, etc and I just don't get it. I thought by now I would be unraveling these discordant thought patterns and find more freedom to think more happy and noble thoughts. The fact that I can feel simultaneously detached from my mind and yet can still be caught up in it bothers me. I'm caught up by it when these troublesome thoughts rear their ugly heads in my mind, and it's hard for me to turn away from them. Being more present if anything has made me much more aware of these patterns when they happen, but I have a lot of trouble dealing with them and putting them to rest. Using the Presence Process I've been doing my best to stay aware of the emotions I feel when these thoughts come around, but I haven't noticed much of a difference just yet. I'm only on week 5 though, and I know it takes time and consistency so I am not saying it isn't working, still trying my best to be patient with myself and the process.
Now my mind obviously isn't always this way, when my thoughts are optimistic, happy, and loving, it gives me a sense of empowerment, uplifts my spirits and it feels right and natural to think like this. That's when my mind feels in harmony with my heart. But I feel little control in choosing whether the contents of my mind are in harmony or not, the winds of my thoughts just kind of push my attitude in different directions and apparently the best thing I can do is simply observe. But aren't we allowed more freedom than that along the way?
For a long time now I've been meaning to write this post. I've decided that I want to work directly on these debilitating thought patterns now so I can think freely and feel more in harmony. I realized my mind spends a lot less time being creative if it's too busy thinking this type of way! I looked on the forums for ways to deal with this and never really found a general consensus on how to handle thoughts. I know simply observing them helps, it's nice that you can be rooted in Presence while the mind does whatever it does and all, but I think I have the right to intend my mind to predominantly think a certain way and this is why I wanted to write this. I won't accept this type of thinking, and it's merely not enough to try and counteract each negative thought with a forced positive one, which in my opinion takes way too much energy anyways. I shouldn't have to wage war on my thoughts like that.
Anyways to conclude this drawn out post (sorry!  ) I just wanted to ask for and hopefully discuss direct methods and resources people here use to rid themselves of discordant thinking habits and establish healthy and happy thought patterns. I just believe it's a big part of developing your full potential and I want to establish good thinking patterns now, lest I have many more years of negative thinking to undo. Thank you all! |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2013 : 05:22:58 AM
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Hi Chaz
Thanks for your post, I found it very interesting.
I see a long thread on the Presence Process, I'm not familiar with it myself so don't know how exactly it describes in being with thoughts.
Here's my take on it.
You have been practicing AYP for some time now and have obviously developed some inner silence. AYP then places a lot of attention on self-inquiry so we can be with exactly the sort of things you are describing and allow them dissolve in a healthy way.
You mentioned emotions in relation to thoughts regarding the Presence Process but don't mention the body or in other words how and where in the body you feel these emotions.
In my experience being with the body (embodiment) with what is going on is paramount. When we are paying attention to the body we are in the present moment with what is going on, and this is in relation directly to those very thoughts you have.
Thoughts are very fleeting, the associated body sensations and emotions much less so, therefore the inquiry process can be much more effective by holding the body sensations as well as the emotions and associated thoughts within the lovely envelope of inner silence.
From what you have written I would guess that you are quite critical of yourself and seem to be almost bashing yourself internally for having such negative thoughts, you say
" I won't accept this type of thinking, and it's merely not enough to try and counteract each negative thought with a forced positive one, which in my opinion takes way too much energy anyways. I shouldn't have to wage war on my thoughts like that."
Waging war on thoughts is pointless and counteracting negative thoughts with positive ones is also very limited in its effectiveness.
There is a lot of research going on at the moment on self-compassion and it is clear that a person who is very self-critical is also most likely to be low in self-compassion ~ which is probably quite a large percentage of the population, including me (but I'm making progress).
So being kind to yourself is paramount, not being hard on yourself regarding all those negative thoughts.
Do you know our brains are hardwired to think more negatively than positively. This is because over the course of evolution we as humans have a much better chance of survival if we focus on "what can go wrong". We can plan and act accordingly, in fact much of our civilization is built on this unconscious process, so please don't beat yourself up for this, it is quite normal.
One of the best way I know if seeing our self-critic is to see how critical we are of others. Each time we criticise or blame another this is a direct reflection on our own self-critic. Self-compassion is an antidote to the self-critic.
One of the key features of self-compassion work is to realise that what you are talking about is quite normal, its also "not your fault", its just the way it is, an evolutionary process. This can take the sting out of it, if you are prepared to let that in.
So going to war on thoughts is, as you say "exhausting", accepting yourself with all those negative thoughts is very freeing. This is not easy work though and it is not fast. You do have an established AYP practice which is your greatest asset in that it is very effective at developing inner silence.
Would suggest your next step would be self-campassion inquiry, although this might be incorporated in the Presence Process, I wouldn't know about that.
You can get further info on self-compassion work at www.self-compassion.org if interested.
All the best
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2013 : 07:54:39 AM
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Hi Chaz,
Such a beautiful post!! Your honesty and humility are refreshing and uplifting.
Agree with Sparkle here...
What are thoughts and where do they come from? One of the definitions of ego (separate self) is the mind - the mind being this entity that gives rise to thoughts. Ultimately, all thoughts arise from the root "I-ness"; if traced upstream, all thoughts have to do with "I" and "me", in relation to itself or to "not I" and "not me" (others). But there is absolutely no way to "conquer" thoughts with more thoughts - that is another ego-based exercise. Mind activity is incessant and automatic in most of us, and while some of this activity arises from the conscious mind, the vast majority is driven by the subconscious part - lifetimes of conditioning. Just as soon as one "layer" is peeled, another shows up, and on it goes. Purification through spiritual practices goes on endlessly until the identification with the separate self (I-ness) is eliminated. And that happens through inquiry.
Your progress is remarkable. The only measure of our progress is where we are today compared to yesterday or last week or last year.. And progress is never even and steady - as chunks of subconscious conditioned stuff comes up, we can become identified with it and experience temporary setbacks - until that stuff is processed and let go in samyama. It can seem like a see-saw until big stuff is cleared. And after years of this, there is continued clearing in the form of noticing stray thoughts - even those are learned to let go in samyama. Again and again until the mind becomes quiescent.
If samyama is not in your repertoire of practices, I recommend it highly. It has been the single most effective practice for me (and of course, the greater the cultivation of inner silence in meditation, the higher the ability to use samyama effectively).. A bit discussed here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=12997
Thank you for this excellent post.
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2013 : 09:25:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaz
Now my mind obviously isn't always this way, when my thoughts are optimistic, happy, and loving, it gives me a sense of empowerment, uplifts my spirits and it feels right and natural to think like this. That's when my mind feels in harmony with my heart. But I feel little control in choosing whether the contents of my mind are in harmony or not, the winds of my thoughts just kind of push my attitude in different directions and apparently the best thing I can do is simply observe. But aren't we allowed more freedom than that along the way?
Absolutely, I think you've already found all the keys to unlock (or unblock) this dilemma you've experienced, Chaz. Mindfulness is all about a person's direct intent and the crystal clear focusing of one's attention upon this present moment. Now is all there is... and within this presence, everything we experience is forever changing and is materially impermanent. Only the eternal reality remains a constant. 
On my own path, a need arose to see negative or inharmonious things differently. Through creative insight, I stopped seeing the negative ideas which can filter into the thought process observed by the witness, as wholly undesirable. It surely was manifesting as a war inside of my mind and heart. Everything is energy... even inertia, if seen as action and refraining from action. Is not all existence an interplay of activation and repose? And as you say, it is harmony which makes sense to the indwelling soul, not disharmony.
So, in my own specific case, I chose to take the initiative to change the way I see these seemingly inharmonious ideas and feelings, so as to release all judgement about them being negative and/or undesirable thoughts. Instead I chose to simply view them as various strings on a musical instrument, awaiting a good tuning-up. We change them through interaction and we shift their vibration by sheer intent, to a more perfect pitch.
Thus, it is not at all necessary to remove them from the body of the musical instrument, it is counter productive for performance. They simply need a shift, a tuning, an adjustment and a higher redirection. Use the force of darkness to invite the light to come in and play. Where there is light, no shadow exists. When there is neutrality embracing opposition, there is the opportunity for a deep and lasting transformation.
I believe that we all exist solely to perform the Sacred Song of God's living presence. This angle of understanding unites Heaven and Earth. And the strings of the mind's heart are ours to proactively attune. They are there for a significant reason and we need only tune them properly, to make them more useful, beautiful and worthwhile. Essentially, to make harmonious music through their vibrations. This takes focus, keen attention, clarity and inspired determination.
Fighting against one's samskaras only reinforces their hold on our consciousness. Right? We aren't advocating forced repression or hiding from the appearance of negativity. If repression really worked, suicide would be the fast track towards enlightenment. So, it behooves us to direct attention on changing these thought forms and emotions, into something valuable for our Sadhana. In truth, to wholly transmute and transform them, not repress or negate them. As I see it, this can only be accomplished through dispassionately bringing them before our observation and altering them into serviceable thought forms and human feelings.
A big part of changing these thoughts into what we desire them to become, is through not identifying with them as core elements of oneself. Thoughts are like radio waves and they circulate all around us and often manifest inside of us. Whose thoughts and whose feelings are they, really? Ultimately, it doesn't matter. through the application of spiritual will, they morph into harmonious attributes. Use the power of the mind's heart to shift the frequency of these ideas and emotions and they will in reply, eventually change into integral aspects of the Divine melody. We flow with, not against, the Divine sound current.
If you will, we are tuning these strings to play the sort of music that stirs the soul. So, we don't ever reject the strings, as they are validly useful, we attune them to the harmony of the universal song. And while this may seem somewhat abstract, it is only natural and practical.
I strongly believe there is a general misnomer about meditation. We are not just transcending the disharmony of the ego-related agendas which keep us unhappy and out of balance, we are equally transforming their nature. We are the artists sculpting their very paradigmatic structures. When seen in this light, all of our karmas and samskaras are our teachers. They are the fuel which we utilize to ignite a deeper understanding of ourselves and this cosmic expression, of which we are integral parts.
In short, it's not really like a doctor saying, "take two hundred Om Mani Padme Hums and call me in the morning"... rather, it's more a case whereby we face the seeming darkness and allow light to flood into it's appearance. In so doing, said effulgence reveals the transformed ides or feelings in new ways. We shape our thought patterns, through positive reinforcement and incremental degrees of spiritual attunement.
quote:
I know simply observing them helps, it's nice that you can be rooted in Presence while the mind does whatever it does and all, but I think I have the right to intend my mind to predominantly think a certain way and this is why I wanted to write this. I won't accept this type of thinking, and it's merely not enough to try and counteract each negative thought with a forced positive one, which in my opinion takes way too much energy anyways. I shouldn't have to wage war on my thoughts like that.
Yes, this! ^^^ It is your birthright to shape and realign your mind-set and range of emotional content. But more and more, I am beginning to see... that it is not really my mind, not my heart, not an individual's journey of awakening... it is all about allowing the attunement to take place and surrender to the joy of making harmonious musical expression (in service to the Supreme Godhead). After all, we don't sit alone in a locked room, endlessly tuning our violin, guitar, sitar, harp or veena... we enact the effort to find harmony and burst open the doors and windows, letting the music out into the very universe at large. We act in harmony because we have chosen through direct intent and the exercise of attention, to change the appearance of disharmony into the reality of lasting harmony.
Hari Om Tat Sat |
Edited by - Govinda on Oct 25 2013 9:32:48 PM |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2013 : 10:18:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaz
But I feel little control in choosing whether the contents of my mind are in harmony or not, the winds of my thoughts just kind of push my attitude in different directions and apparently the best thing I can do is simply observe. But aren't we allowed more freedom than that along the way?
Awareness and witnessing of the negative thoughts brings light to them, exposing their nature that inherently spirals towards stagnation and deeper bondage. The mind sees this over and over, and instead of following such habits, it begins to confront itself with a question: do I want to keep digging myself in the ground, or exercise emerging freedom to choose to rise above it? When hitting rock bottom with negative thoughts, it becomes clear that both negative and positive thoughts are expenditures of energy, except the former always and without exception leads to depletion and stagnation and the former to replenishment calling to itself all other positive attributes. It is as basic conditioning, or rather extinction of 'instinct and traits' of mind.
This is just one aspect on the surface, and doing this alone would be like self-inquiry without underlying support. I have reason to believe there has to be compassion towards self and others, understanding as from self-reflection and observation of others, love, acceptance, surrender, and the purification of the subtle bodies to provide ever greater connections or channels to universal sources of vitality and inspiration.
I know, this sounds like calling on every element, and really without a holistic all-round support, direct fighting of negative thoughts with more thoughts, mind with more mind, is overlooking the limited toolkit of the mind, and the elaborate castles of theory regenerating endless cycles (circles). A knowing you can't know from such a perspective becomes one of its final products. I believe it to be an unavoidable process, since it needs to be experienced first-hand, or the circles keep looping into 'what if's' and 'what about's'. This isn't just about negative thoughts, but actual creative freedom or license to re-interpret all events into something more positive, and then making that change begin to manifest around and within you.
It is hard, and I understand what you are saying. What helps me is to remind myself that every inch/centimeter of progress will never be lost, and it makes the process so much more worth doing to the best of one's ability.
Hope this stream of thought was clear and does make sense and not just intuitively. |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2013 : 10:21:45 AM
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Hi Chaz,
I think many/most people have had similar experiences before. It's gradually come to a halt here over the past 8 years of spiritual practices but once the mind in the past would often get completely lost in thought, sometimes for hours at a time, and it could be very negative stuff. Not pleasant to deal with. The more you try and control it, the worse it gets in my experience.
The Presence Process (which has similar advice to what Sparkle suggested) that you take your attention off the thought stories, and engage it entirely in the sensory (bodily sensation) & felt-emotional experience of the moment (even using the mantra "I am here now in this" to replace the mental activity) is in my view a very powerful technique for dealing with this stuff.
If you're experiencing an increase in the weight of negativity atm, it's undoubtedly because TPP is working and bringing a lot of this stuff to the surface.
Things should not be getting better at week 5, they should most likely be getting much, much worse - as in TPP you're consciously intending to open the floodgates to areas of deep, subconscious and repressed emotional memory, and it's likely to flow out into a flurry of negative thoughts and extremely difficult experiences, which will challenge your ability to remain aware and centered.
quote:
I think I have the right to intend my mind to predominantly think a certain way and this is why I wanted to write this
I can understand this desire, but wanting to change things often derives from inner felt-resistance, which is another layer of suffering added on top of things just as they are.
Thoughts and emotions aren't really separate from each other, they function in tandem: Negative thoughts creating negative emotions, and negative emotions tending to create negative thoughts, and in addition to all this a resistant doer/controller which arises in the mind and says "STOP! I don't want this! I want this to be different!"
All of this: The negative thoughts, the negative emotions, and a resistance-based desire to control it, is a game of the ego which keeps us trapped in suffering.
Fortunately the solution is actually, perhaps counter-intuitively, in learning to gradually stop trying to do anything about it (this is the art of meditation - the art of doing nothing). You've already acknowledged that you recognize you're largely powerless to control what's going on, beyond simply noticing it.
It can be helpful to simply and easily notice what thoughts and feelings might arise about the inability to control thinking. Often resisting thoughts may come up which say, "but this is not good enough! I want things to be better than they are!", or "I should be able to do something to make this better". I only say this because it was the case for me at one time, I felt that accepting things was kind of deterministic, it would just be depressing to face powerlessness and inability to control. But even thoughts and feelings like that say inability to control is depressing or deterministic are nothing to worry about, they are still more ego games which beg us to identify with them and feel sad or unhappy, and there's an I somewhere that should be in control of the situation.
The fact of situation is:
1. We don't have much/any control over our thinking, in fact the attempt to do so often makes things worse and drains energy
2. However, that doesn't mean we intend to learn the art of gradually, inch by inch, learning to acknowledge what is true, that we can't control it (it may be helpful to inquire: right now, do I really have any power to change the thoughts that are taking place?) and then meditating (which is just the art of being still, not doing anything, so we gradually becoming aware of all the stuff that is going on internally, resisting and so on).
This gentle favoring of ceasing the attempt to control, and letting attention rest on sensations of the body, the breath, and emotional experience, is the only way. Like this we relax our way into freedom.
I feel like this is old, trite and oft-repeated advice, so I'm a little hesitant to post it because maybe you don't need to hear it from it me, but then again - it's true, and it works.
Oh and I just remember one great way that also helps - write the thoughts down on paper as they come up. Just allow them to say what they have to say. You can be like, Dear Thoughts, you are most welcome to express all your negativity and all these crazy stories that you have about how terrible things are, and anger and violence and so on. I will lovingly welcome this vast story that you enjoy spinning out, I'll even honor you by writing it down on paper. Even the thoughts that say "I should be in control of this and so on" or "writing this stuff down is stupid" are part of this amusing, although unpleasant, story also, and so I will honor and write you down too.
This allows you to just watch and see the thoughts, when you put them on to paper, they lose the power that they have when kept in your head. This activity is also completely in the spirit of welcoming and non-resistance so it can be very helpful.
Love to you,
Josh |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Oct 25 2013 10:23:33 AM |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2013 : 11:24:47 AM
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Good topic Chaz. The mind is a terrible master but an ever faithful, loyal and efficient servant.
"Gratitude is a good barometer of how present we are" - Michael Brown (TPP). In other words, when you are feeling gratitude, you are in the present moment. It's virtually impossible to have a negative thought when you are being authentic and experiencing gratitude.
However, as Sparkle suggested, negative or critical thinking can be an essential survival skill. Because it is often quite useful for problem solving and for initiating an effective response to challenging situations. Sometimes we have to think critically in order to survive or to ensure our basic wellbeing.
Have you ever noticed how difficult it is to manipulate a stubborn person? That is because they have very strong will and resist being controlled by an external force. When our minds are being controlled and manipulated by an external force, then they are not user-friendly (they don't serve us, rather they promote and serve that external force). On the spiritual path we may learn to allow our higher selves to manage our minds, as opposed to being held in bondage to mental and emotional patterns that aren't operating in our best interest.
TPP can become a formidable tool at our disposal to guarantee that we are authentic and true to ourselves, that we have integrity, as opposed to being a product of our conditioning.. my 2 cents.
love
parvati |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2013 : 12:26:11 PM
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Hi Chaz,
Here is my thoughts on the whole thing. You have the tools TPP/Insight Dialogue. We are learning how to use them in everyday life. I know there are time where I am like. Ok here comes a conversation, stay present with my feelings and then after. I was like "What happened". I was not present I forgot everything.
I am learning. Just like in DM. It takes awhile to get going and then it just keeps getting better and better. The same thing with our thoughts during the day. We have huge issues that will override our methods at times. The more time we spend with them, learn from them the less they will have a hold on us. So I am treating it just like DM and thoughts during DM. I am not always present and when I notice I am not, I gently go back to being present and being with any negative charge.
Somethings will intergrate faster than others. Just remember what you hunger to lose the most is what you will hold on to the longest.
I hope that helps |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2013 : 5:53:12 PM
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Also, it is thinking that something is "impure" that causes great anguish. We have been so flogged in spiritual circles about becoming "pure" that this idea of purity has led to more bondage.
I tend to view my mind as I view my young children. They say the most ridiculous things but I don't go punishing them for being "impure". If I say I love my children, that would be the greatest understatement; however, discipline is meted out in the form that is most appropriate, which is not to "purify" them but for them to analyze where certain thoughts and actions come from. And so too with my mind - it doesn't know any better. It is no different than my kids saying, "I don't like so and so because she/he is mean to me".. My mind, being more seasoned, thinks up more complicated plots. That is all. We are all neurotic, at different levels of the spectrum amazingly considered "normal".
If you can stop fighting the mind, and treat it like the impudent child it acts like, you can stay out of the story while standing back in loving amusement. When not entertained, it stops its antics (exactly like my kids!!). Absolutely nothing in creation is inherently "impure"; incremental thoughts in the form of judgment and comparison makes it so.
Much love. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2013 : 01:23:37 AM
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Dear Chaz,
What everybody already said, so beautifully, above.
For me, the crux of the matter is this, when you said:
...it's merely not enough to try and counteract each negative thought with a forced positive one, which in my opinion takes way too much energy anyways. I shouldn't have to wage war on my thoughts like that.
Exactly! It takes way too much energy, AND as others have pointed out, it only makes the situation worse.
But, you asked how we each deal with it, so here's how it works for me, FWIW:
I always hated the constant spinning of "the monkey mind," not only for its so-called "negative" thoughts, but just the continual yapping in general. What helped me a lot was to remember not to identify with the mind/thoughts; just witness it. "Yep, that's a thought. umkay, just another thought. there it goes." As Kami said, view the mind like an impudent child, "while standing back in loving amusement." We don't have to get sucked into the drama.
And it can be a great exercise in self-inquiry: whose thoughts are these? who is fighting whom? why am I bothered by these thoughts? if you're into that sort of thing. I got bored with that approach pretty quickly but many people find it very useful.
The only "technique" other than detached witnessing that has really worked for me, is silently chanting japa. If your mind is busy with the Names of God it won't have time to be thinking all kinds of stupid sh*t.
Eventually, in May of 2011 the monkey mind just stopped its obsessive yammering (thank God!) but not because of any particular "technique," but because my reality in general shifted. Now every once in a while it will briefly start up and I kind of laugh and say, "umkay, really? whatever!" and it soon goes away. If it doesn't immediately stop, like in a very stressful situation, then I just chant japa. I have found that japa fixes just about anything.
Again, for me it was the mere constant activity/chattering of the monkey mind, rather than specific "negative thoughts," that annoyed me. As others have pointed out, above, labeling or judging our thoughts as "negative" is not necessarily helpful, IMO. There's no point to being harsh with yourself over something that is essentially maya, fantasy, completely insubstantial. It's just something that the mind does by its very nature; no big deal. By labeling it as "bad" and fighting a war against it you're only provoking it more and perpetuating the cycle. The monkey-mind loves that! it never wearies of arguing back.  Better to just let it go if you can.
I hope that is helpful.
LOVE. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2013 : 10:18:57 AM
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We have to make it OK for thoughts to go on.
In silence, you distance yourself from the thoughts. The mind will keep on going, negative, positive, it doesn't matter and it gets quieter as if in another room.
When you make it OK and move on, thoughts are so faint and unimportant that you don't care about them. |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2013 : 6:03:42 PM
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Hi Chaz,
I suggest that you read The Sedona Method, but only after you are done with The Presence Process. I first learned about this systematic inquiry system in one of the lessons.
I find very useful to ask the questions with the hands clenched, and then release them when answering the final question.
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Chaz
USA
129 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2013 : 8:24:55 PM
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Thank you all for your beautiful and insightful responses. It feels great having this community in my life. You all help me grow and learn more about myself in ways I never expect. Don't know where else I would turn to about things like this. Much love to all of you.
Sparkle, I'm glad you found my post interesting. :)
The way TPP describes being with thoughts is similar to the way you described, feeling the emotions in the body. In my experience, these emotions are felt most strongly in the solar plexus region. I have found this method of being with the body effective, and it's rather easy for me to sit and watch these sensations rise and dissolve on the screen of my awareness but in no way is this automatic or always easy outside of meditation. Work in progress.
You're right, I am hard on myself and maybe it comes from a deep frustration and resistance. I understand that it's pointless and counterproductive to fight with your thoughts, and I do my best not to invest a lot of energy in that, but it's sometimes very automatic. I get frustrated because I can feel peace and love and have a strong desire to effortlessly express that, but then my mind likes to chime in and has all these negative things go on about. And I'm just like stfu I don't wan't to be bothered by you right now. For instance sharing a happy moment with a loved one, and then the mind thinks about this loved ones death and not having them around anymore, things like that. It's weird, it's like my mind just doesn't want me to ever enjoy what is now. Very frustrating. It's hard feeling like you've come such a long way, and yet still the mind is up to its old tricks.
I understand what you're saying about the critical thinking. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. It makes sense as a survival instinct, but all the extra unnecessary thinking is just that. It doesn't serve me in any way and feels like it takes away from the quality of my experience.
Self-compassion is definitely needed over here. I understand that is born out of a silent heart and not the ego petting itself, which is not what I mean by positive uplifting thought patterns. Nor do I want to continue to be attatched to what's going on in my head, good or bad. I'm just saying when I think, I want to make the most of my thoughts for a good purpose. My current way of thinking can sometimes shut me down during moments when I feel love, and peace. It can stagnate the flow of that and becomes very frustrating, I don't want it to have that kind of hold on me. Does this make any sense?
Kami, thank's for your kind response and the post you linked too is very inspiring and insightful, I read it before but it was a great reminder of why samyama is so essential, especially at this stage. I will certainly put it to use as best as I can.
You and Sparkle mention inquiry, I haven't really had much success with the methods I've found in the past but also haven't invested a lot of time in practicing them, was more focused on establishing inner silence but now that I can say I definitely feel it I will work on some inquiry. Will have to do some experimenting.
Govinda, you beautifully described exactly how I feel about all this. Thank you for your post.
quote:
Instead I chose to simply view them as various strings on a musical instrument, awaiting a good tuning-up. We change them through interaction and we shift their vibration by sheer intent, to a more perfect pitch.
Well said, and this is exactly what I mean. I'm not trying to fight with my thinking anymore, or change it to make my ego feel better, I'm just trying to give it a good tune up. To bring more harmony in the music. :)
quote:
We shape our thought patterns, through positive reinforcement and incremental degrees of spiritual attunement.
Yes, this is what I believe and what I mean when I say don't we have that kind of freedom. I acknowledge that I'm probably still very attatched to what goes on in my mind, even if it has gotten much more easier to observe it, and that is part of the problem. I also understand that it's not good to repress negative thoughts or even label them as such. But currently as I am now, I feel very limited by the patterns that go on in my mind, and as you put it, would like to tune these patterns to a more perfect pitch. In my experience I feel they are not in harmony with the song my heart wants to sing, and therefor do not serve their purpose. The tuning is what I feel I need. I've been praying and surrendering this desire to God, asking Her to fill me with harmonious thoughts, thoughts more in tune with Hers. Sometimes I wish I could take a more proactive approach, though.
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Originally posted by AumNaturel
Awareness and witnessing of the negative thoughts brings light to them, exposing their nature that inherently spirals towards stagnation and deeper bondage. The mind sees this over and over, and instead of following such habits, it begins to confront itself with a question: do I want to keep digging myself in the ground, or exercise emerging freedom to choose to rise above it? When hitting rock bottom with negative thoughts, it becomes clear that both negative and positive thoughts are expenditures of energy, except the former always and without exception leads to depletion and stagnation and the former to replenishment calling to itself all other positive attributes. It is as basic conditioning, or rather extinction of 'instinct and traits' of mind.
Hello Aum, :)
You made a lot of sense and this is where I'm at and what I'm speaking about. I guess becoming more aware of these patterns of thinking have made me get caught up in dealing with them. As you said, the nature of these negative thoughts and the effect they have on me have been brought to light, and there is now this strong desire to not be caught in it and rise above it.
I'll say again I really don't want to play mind vs. mind games, and continuing to use Govinda's abstract imagery, I instead am expressing my desire to tune my mind to the sounds of my heart. These thought patterns I feel, are sometimes blocking the expression of that, towards myself and others. In my heart I feel like the mind can be used effectively as a tool for that expression, but only until I have learned to tame it, to play it's strings. I know there needs to be more compassion involved, and perhaps more seeing clearly past my mind is needed for that.
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This isn't just about negative thoughts, but actual creative freedom or license to re-interpret all events into something more positive, and then making that change begin to manifest around and within you.
My heart completely agrees.
Hi Mr. Anderson. Your post was well put. I have found TPP effective and I gotta thank you for sharing it with me, it has definitely been helping me stay present during these thoughts and the resulting pattern of me arguing with them. I know the truth of the matter is there is no control, I have argued with my thoughts long enough to know this. I can yell back and say "I don't really feel this way!" or "That's a horrible thought" I can get angry and frustrated and try to correct it but it still does its thing. And I get that, but deep down I feel there must be some way we can get the mind to work more and more WITH us, side by side, expressing that which is truly felt within beyond the disharmony. What I'm saying is the mind might do whatever it does, and it may not be who and what I am but it's a part of the vessel in which my essence sails. Using that for imagery, I imagine being on a on a sail boat. The winds are the thoughts, the sails are the mind. There may not be a lot of control going on, but you can guide the boat to go in a certain direction by knowing how the sails work with the wind. This is what I'm trying to say, if it made any sense.
I get what you mean about the inner resistance, and it's probably going to take some time before I can fully accept and come to terms with some of the contents of my mind. It seems like that requires a radical shift in perspective, and I still don't know how to become fully established in this new point of view. Continuing to hope the distance I feel from my thoughts while staying present will manifest more in daily life. But then even if I am completely detached, is there not more to the mechanics of the mind that make it more purposeful for us? Is it always going to do it's own thing regardless of how free I am from it? Will it always try to engage in some thoughts that FEEL out of harmony with my heart and essence? At any point does it become a tame friend to us?
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Originally posted by parvati9
Good topic Chaz. The mind is a terrible master but an ever faithful, loyal and efficient servant.
Hi Parvati. Indeed, this is very true. :)
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"Gratitude is a good barometer of how present we are" - Michael Brown (TPP). In other words, when you are feeling gratitude, you are in the present moment. It's virtually impossible to have a negative thought when you are being authentic and experiencing gratitude.
Perhaps I have a long ways to go in becoming more present then. I know there are times when I'm experiencing this intense and silent gratitude, and the mind can jump in and say something which will take away my attention from that, and I am so easily caught in its trap. TPP has made me recognize this happening much more but it's still very hard to avoid. The things my mind can come up with, and is so readily willing to share in interruption during a moment of intense love and peace. It's often baffling that that is even possible. The quick transition from peace to frustration with my mind actually reminds me of some of the mythology associated with Shiva. Even he was not always completely above losing his bliss in a moment.
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Originally posted by jonesboy
Hi Chaz,
Here is my thoughts on the whole thing. You have the tools TPP/Insight Dialogue. We are learning how to use them in everyday life. I know there are time where I am like. Ok here comes a conversation, stay present with my feelings and then after. I was like "What happened". I was not present I forgot everything.
I am learning. Just like in DM. It takes awhile to get going and then it just keeps getting better and better. The same thing with our thoughts during the day. We have huge issues that will override our methods at times. The more time we spend with them, learn from them the less they will have a hold on us. So I am treating it just like DM and thoughts during DM. I am not always present and when I notice I am not, I gently go back to being present and being with any negative charge.
Somethings will intergrate faster than others. Just remember what you hunger to lose the most is what you will hold on to the longest.
I hope that helps
That was very helpful Jonesboy. It is very disappointing when I find my old ways have overridden my methods, even though they prove effective, and this I realize is part of the path. It takes a lot of consistency and I'm coming to more gradually see and accept that now. I am trying to stay patient.
Maybe it IS my desire to drop these thinking habits that keep me identified and attached to the mind. I will try more samyama for this.
Kami, you make a good point about labeling the mind impure. It was a little bit too extreme for what I was trying to express I admit. What I really was trying to say was the mind has an incredible ability to taint my expression of love at times and it becomes a conflict between mind and heart, one seemingly more negative than the other. Heart says things like "This person deserves unconditional love, give them love." Mind says things like "No, ignore this person, this person is annoying, irritates me, smells bad, is gross, etc." and even IF the person does smell bad and doesn't practice good hygiene, it shouldn't be something that puts a lock on my heart or limits the love it has the capacity to give. It's just that in my experience it can be a lot more challenging to ACTIVELY express this love when the mind is not agreeing with it. I believe I can express love in two ways, silent love (sending love out samyama style) and in a slightly more tangible way through my words and actions but that in my experience is through the efforts of the heart and mind in harmony. Correct me if I am wrong here.
It's clear the mind is childish, and should be treated as such. I remember a saying adults had when I was a kid eager to join an adult conversation: "Kids should be seen and not heard." But as kids, we all had clever ways of making ourselves heard. Similarly with the mind. So it becomes hard to stay detached and give it unconditional attention simultaneously (outside of meditation). It often tricks me into giving it the attention it needs to keep it going.
Hey Radharani. :)
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Originally posted by Radharani
I always hated the constant spinning of "the monkey mind," not only for its so-called "negative" thoughts, but just the continual yapping in general. What helped me a lot was to remember not to identify with the mind/thoughts; just witness it. "Yep, that's a thought. umkay, just another thought. there it goes." As Kami said, view the mind like an impudent child, "while standing back in loving amusement." We don't have to get sucked into the drama.
YES! Sometimes I'm just like will you ever shut up and just stay quiet so I can BE? Even when it isn't negative so to speak. It's actually tiring thinking all the time. I might experience silence and the mind chattering away simultaneously and it's very confusing. Even if my thoughts were mainly positive, if the mind is too busy thinking all the time it's still in the way! That helps me clarify what I mean by making the mind a friend, an efficient tool. Tools don't work on their own, they don't have a life of their own. Similarly the mind doesn't have it's own life that needs to be acknowledged, only an illusory one, and it is only by the power of our essence that the mind is made manifest. So when I say I wish to develop healthy thought patterns and a healthy mind set, in contrast to my current experience of thoughts always going on whether I'm attached to them or not, and them becoming particularly bothersome when I am detached, is I don't want to always view my mind as a separate entity that needs to be dealt with, but rather it becoming a healthy part of my expression. I don't know if any of this makes sense so bear with me.
Your experience of the mind going mostly quiet gives me hope. THAT is a healthy mindset. Silence. Silence is the dominant one and manifests what it needs to in the mind when it needs it. Then you can't possibly argue with anything that goes on in the mind because it's so close to that Silent, perfect essence. This is what I imagine it's like. I hope that by the grace of God that is an experience I can share with you soon.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
We have to make it OK for thoughts to go on.
In silence, you distance yourself from the thoughts. The mind will keep on going, negative, positive, it doesn't matter and it gets quieter as if in another room.
When you make it OK and move on, thoughts are so faint and unimportant that you don't care about them.
You're right. It's much easier for me to stay distant from my thoughts in meditation then while engaged in daily activity however. It's very hard when you feel at peace and presently aware, and just a simple thought can come along and rob you of that. There is still identification with the mind that needs to be dropped and I know that's gonna take some work. You would think the peace would ultimately drown out the thoughts all the time. Go figure. But as I said, work in progress.
Thank you all for sharing.
I would like to restate that I do of course agree that it is pointless to wage war on the mind, and I wasn't asking for more arsenal under the guise of methods to overcome habitual discordant thinking. I named this thread war on thoughts because it's a lot like the war on drugs (sorry, don't mean to get political here) it just doesn't work, and causes more harm then good. I want to drop this inner battle all together and bring harmony to my mind-heart-soul. Hopefully this is all coming out clear and I'm not going in circles here. I sincerely thank you all for helping me see some unnecessary identification going on. It was very helpful all on it's own. Thank you all for bearing with this long post. I will try to better keep up with the responses. :) |
Edited by - Chaz on Oct 26 2013 8:53:25 PM |
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Chaz
USA
129 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2013 : 8:37:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Will Power
Hi Chaz,
I suggest that you read The Sedona Method, but only after you are done with The Presence Process. I first learned about this systematic inquiry system in one of the lessons.
I find very useful to ask the questions with the hands clenched, and then release them when answering the final question.
Hello Will Power,
I will take your suggestion and check it out once I'm done doing TPP, I will keep in mind to let you know how it goes for me. Thanks for sharing.  |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2013 : 6:35:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
We have to make it OK for thoughts to go on.
In silence, you distance yourself from the thoughts. The mind will keep on going, negative, positive, it doesn't matter and it gets quieter as if in another room.
When you make it OK and move on, thoughts are so faint and unimportant that you don't care about them.
Good point, Ether, and I should probably clarify: When I say the monkey-mind "stopped" in 2011, it would be more accurate to say that the aggravation stopped. At first I thought the monkey-mind had literally died or gone away, because the silence was so sudden and so profound. But upon further investigation, the monkey-mind was still there - I just wasn't concerned about it anymore; I was completely detached.
However, at the same time, there definitely has also been a change in the character of it. It's actually hard to remember what it was like before, as if another lifetime or something, but as I recall, the mind used to have a lot of almost obsessive chattering or yapping, e.g., "I like this. I don't like that. I hope this will happen. I hope that won't happen. Boy, it was really unfair the other day when so and so... I'm worried about this or that..." etc. It was loud and nearly continual, except during meditation (and sometimes even then).
Now, it's like I'm living in the silence, but when I check in and access the monkey-mind, it's often quietly doing something "secretarial" in the background, like, "Don't forget to call the farrier," or "That paperwork is due next week," or if I'm writing a blog, it will be composing stuff in the background - doing what the mind does, but not obsessively. Otherwise, if nothing "useful" is happening, it's generally just chanting the Names of God (from long habit). But, the "annoying" quality and the worry has disappeared and I no longer identify with the process.
I hope that makes sense. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2013 : 09:58:37 AM
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Hi Chaz
you said "Self-compassion is definitely needed over here. I understand that is born out of a silent heart and not the ego petting itself, which is not what I mean by positive uplifting thought patterns. Nor do I want to continue to be attatched to what's going on in my head, good or bad. I'm just saying when I think, I want to make the most of my thoughts for a good purpose. My current way of thinking can sometimes shut me down during moments when I feel love, and peace. It can stagnate the flow of that and becomes very frustrating, I don't want it to have that kind of hold on me. Does this make any sense?"
You have had a lot of good advice and suggestions and it's all good stuff. Different approaches suit different people at different times and we have to go with what seems right for us at the time and most importantly with what actually works for us in a practical way.
There is a lot of research being done on self-compassion at the moment and there are a couple of questionnaires which have helped me see that in actual fact, with many years of meditation practice and samyama and loving kindness meditation, there was still a high level of the self-critic.
The thing that tripped me up for so long was that I actually thought it was a useful thing to be highly self-critical with regard to spiritual practice. I thought self-inquiry was about being self-critical and being tough on myself - like the traditional view of ZEN sitting for instance, which I did for a few years. Or the WARRIOR approach.
Whilst there is nothing wrong with Zen or Warrior approach, it was my perception of them, and I think it may be a common one, that tripped me up.
I know a few people, who would be regarded as very experienced, as meditators and with advanced stages of kundalini development who have had this high level of the self-critic going on.
Sometimes it's hard to spot in ourselves. One nice way of spotting it is in seeing how critical we are of others. Whenever we criticise another, it is a direct reflection on how our own self-critic is. This was a great learning for me in examining my self-critic.
So how to go about changing the self-critic - well the first step is recognising it and becoming very familiar with it. Then bringing it into awareness in the BODY, in combination with inner silence can have a dissolving effect over time, and yes you may have guessed - this is Samyama.
You said above that "My current way of thinking can sometimes shut me down during moments when I feel love, and peace. It can stagnate the flow of that and becomes very frustrating"
You may not like this, but this is life. This is what Yogani talks about when he says do the practices and go out and live life - this is what happens when we live life - this is where Self-inquiry comes in. When thoughts manifest as emotions and feelings in the body - yes they can "contract" us, they can close the heart and the felt love can recede - welcome to the world of opening and contracting - this is normal.
AS self-inquiry goes on we do get more familiar with all of this and learn that it is part of being alive and also part of other people's aliveness. To live in constant love without any contraction is a myth.
Hope this helps
Two questionnaires which may be helpful in bringing awareness to your self-critic are http://www.compassionatemind.co.uk/...on_Scale.pdf
and http://www.self-compassion.org/scal...archers.html |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2013 : 9:04:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
Good topic Chaz. The mind is a terrible master but an ever faithful, loyal and efficient servant.
"Gratitude is a good barometer of how present we are" - Michael Brown (TPP). In other words, when you are feeling gratitude, you are in the present moment. It's virtually impossible to have a negative thought when you are being authentic and experiencing gratitude.
However, as Sparkle suggested, negative or critical thinking can be an essential survival skill. Because it is often quite useful for problem solving and for initiating an effective response to challenging situations. Sometimes we have to think critically in order to survive or to ensure our basic wellbeing.
Have you ever noticed how difficult it is to manipulate a stubborn person? That is because they have very strong will and resist being controlled by an external force. When our minds are being controlled and manipulated by an external force, then they are not user-friendly (they don't serve us, rather they promote and serve that external force). On the spiritual path we may learn to allow our higher selves to manage our minds, as opposed to being held in bondage to mental and emotional patterns that aren't operating in our best interest.
TPP can become a formidable tool at our disposal to guarantee that we are authentic and true to ourselves, that we have integrity, as opposed to being a product of our conditioning.. my 2 cents.
love
parvati
This is very inspiring, parvati, thank you! I have not found my mind to be faithful to anything except its own aggrandizement, though. I often see it as a virus, although valuable things do come from it. Maybe it can serve what it should, though.
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war on thoughts
