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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 15 2013 : 5:35:05 PM
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Hi everyone, even though I am not so active on the forums this year I feel so close to everyone here, and I love the kinship that is between all of us here and on Facebook. I am very grateful for that, a kind of AYP "net of Light" lol.
Anyways I wanted to talk about progress, specifically mine. This year I haven't been so deep into practices because that's what worked for me energy-wise so as to not overload. But also even though I have been into practices for 4 years I haven't had a lot of deep realizations. I still so long for something that I can't put my finger on, I don't know what it is so I call it God or Truth or Non-duality. I do have a lot of kundalini activity with rushes of energy and ecstatic conductivity. But it doesn't satisfy my hunger. I don't know what this is, and I see here on this forum people who have also been on this path for 5 or so years and have or had deep realizations and non dual experiences, and with me it's like.. nothing. I do feel though that this is a path I will continue on as something in me calls me to continue to meditate. I am just bored I guess and see no evident inner progress. I also know that you can't rush these things "it's a marathon" etc. I don't know and I'm sorry if this is rant-y lol, I just want so badly to reach some place that I can't put my finger on what it is 
Namaste all and blessed Be
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PastMorning
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2013 : 8:19:37 PM
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One of the biggest traps I can fall in are the moments when I overestimate what's "supposed" to happen as opposed to what does. I used to trip occasionally on psychedelics and it's easy to get major realizations during those experiences, but they went nowhere because I still had to come down from the trip into my normal frame of consciousness. What makes meditation more effective for me is that with consistent practice, it's a gradual rise upward in positive change to the frame of consciousness I have. There are peaks, but they settle into the gradual rise.
What keeps me from being too obsessive about progress is school and other activities. It's also the constant inquiry that I already have everything I need moment to moment. Enlightenment is dynamic and my practices are an extension of that while gradually expanding what enlightenment is. Keep up the practices and keep reminding yourself that you have what you need. Practices are just a matter of getting what you want |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2013 : 8:45:24 PM
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Hi Yonatan
I love you man. Your honesty and willingness to be vulnerable is inspiring. 
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2013 : 9:57:27 PM
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Hi Pastmorning, thank you for sharing, and maybe you are right about other activities helping with not being obsessed about progress. For about 3 years I haven't worked or studied somewhere so I guess this is part of this feeling, but I'll be working soon so maybe it will help And thanks for the advice, I will definitely keep on meditating.
I love you too Carson You have no idea how inspiring you have been to me in the past 
This is just how I am My regular me is like that so being honest is not anything different or special, anyway am glad it is inspiring
Love you |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2013 : 10:12:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan
I just want so badly to reach some place that I can't put my finger on what it is
Hi Yonatan,
I have an observation for your consideration. Your expression of longing above seems go grow out of a form of self-inquiry you articulated on the "Jnana Yoga/Self-Inquiry - Advaita (Non-Duality)" forum two years ago:
"Another simple method is just to ask yourself what you really really really really want in your life?"
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=10547
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2013 : 10:35:32 PM
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Hi Yonatan,
You always are such a kind and open-hearted person on these forums, honest and truthful with your expression, thank you for being here. I don't know you if you had this quality before AYP, but your expression communicates a lot about the flow of your heart that maybe you don't even notice.
Have you listened to Jed McKenna's Spiritually Incorrect Enlightenment series? He can tend to throw the baby out with bathwater (I'm not sure if this idiom extends beyond the UK hence I post a link to an explanation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throw_...e_bath_water but I found this useful at the critical point of being frustrated with what I imagined was a lack of progress.
Just a passing idea.
Love,
J |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Oct 15 2013 10:38:36 PM |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2013 : 01:06:43 AM
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OMG Bewell, thank you for pointing this thread out, I didn't even remember it, and now it might help!! Thank you haha
MrAnderson, thank you I really appreciate you saying this. To be honest, I was more fearful and insecure before these years with AYP, so although I was good hearted, I let fear sometimes take hold, and the communication was effected. I also think that the openness that you say, was not present to this degree before, so yes, AYP helped a ton with that. And it's true that now I don't even notice it as it's part of my expression. Thanks for pointing that out. I also am glad that you are here, I find those same qualities with you too, and I find you a warm gentle and loving soul
I will check out Jed, it may be good right now.
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apatride
New Caledonia
94 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2013 : 01:12:21 AM
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Thanks for sharing Yonatan.
After a few months practicing, AYP is undeniably bringing me very much, but the progress is often so subtle and hard to define, that I can't help but think that it goes nowhere.
And yet it does, if I must remain honest.
All of this is paradoxally both deceptive and wonderful at the same time. |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2013 : 03:12:35 AM
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Yes, agreed apatride. The change can be subtle but overtime great. After thinking about it I changed drastically over the years of AYP, and these communications on this thread help me see this.
I am happy that AYP helps you.
Love! |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2013 : 07:27:57 AM
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Dear Yonathan,
Funny - I want to go backwards. I want to be 'normal' again; grieve properly, get upset, throw a tantrum properly, instead of witnessing tears running down my face and smiling inside, thinking "You fake"
or end up with a silly grin on my face when I am trying to be properly upset. 
I want to day-dream again!
Sey |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2013 : 07:30:27 AM
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Hi Yonatan,
Agree with everyone here - you are the epitome of love and kindness. We tend to be very hard on ourselves, and cannot see within us what everyone else sees. You are already full of light, and thus the changes in you might be more subtle. The longing you experience is common to all of us. It is Bhakti.
As you say, engaging in other activities might be the key - only in interactions with others can we measure our progress, and find things that still need work. Besides, all insights are profound - it is really fruitless to assess if someone else's insight is any more or less than what arises within our own experience. There is absolutely no way to know where someone else is, particularly in terms of profound (or not so profound) direct knowledge. The only thing we can see in others is how they manifest their insights in daily life, in their behavior and their interactions. Even then, it is impossible to tell where they actually are.
One thing I've learned over the years (and still learning) is to not assess anything too seriously from these (or other) forums. It is absolutely fantastic to have this haven to share and learn and spend time with like-minded folks, but that's about it. Each of us has to do the work for ourselves, find the truth and live it for ourselves in our unique lives. Best not to place too much weight on written words.
Love and peace to you. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2013 : 09:41:33 AM
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Hi Yonatan,
In my experience when this happens...
"I still so long for something that I can't put my finger on, I don't know what it is..."
...you are are experiencing the calm (feeling the bigness of the storm coming but beyond the mind's understanding) before a storm (opening) and the mind wants to make sense of it... the longing in the heart grows and the mind does not have anything to attach it to...
Best to not attach anything and surrender to the mysteries....
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2013 : 1:03:01 PM
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Good point Shanti, also made me think of something. When I feel the very intense bhakti, I allow myself to feel it fully, I won't let thoughts direct it out toward wanting some object, a spiritual state or experience. Will just sit and be with that longing, without any mental stories or interpretations of it. Feeling the energy of the longing itself, knowing it as a sensation in awareness. I find this super helpful, so wanted to share it.
There are some nice Osho quotes on this:
"Meditation is the recognition that "There is an inner world too, and I have to search for it.
Mind is focussed on some goal, some object. Meditation is the search to know the pure longing - not the object, but the longing for the object. "What is this longing in me that wants to have much money, that wants to have great power, that wants to become famous [or that wants enlightenment or a non-dual experience or whatever]... what is this longing in me? Who is this longing in me? What is its nature?
To know this longing is meditation." - OSHO
"Longing in its purity is divine, longing when it longs for nothing is divine. The moment an object of longing arises, it becomes mundane. Longing is a pure fire that purifies... But the moment it becomes attached to any object whatsoever: Nirvana, Non-dual experience, Money, meditation, God, it doesn't matter - any object and the longing is no longer pure." - OSHO
Longing is an end in itself :-) Osho was a pretty controversial guy but he said good stuff sometimes.
http://www.osho.com/library/online-...055-2e9.aspx
Love,
J |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Oct 16 2013 1:04:09 PM |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2013 : 4:33:23 PM
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Thank you very much Sey, Kami, Shanti and Josh, for you very insightful words. Yes kami not comparing my path to others is probably a key here. And I really can't know others' experience of living.
Shanti, surrender is always the best choice
Josh that is interesting what you say, mindfulness on the sensation, may be of help. BTW, I began reading Jed's spiritually incorrect book and it made me want to read his enlightenment the damndest thing book. I am really interested by his writing, very good, it makes me intrigued and want to keep on reading.
Sey I can't say that I relate to your words because I don't feel that way but thanks for sharing. At one time, although it's not the same, I wanted to just be normal and not this spiritual into all this spiritual stuff guy, just be and live like everyone else, but it passed
Much Love to all. |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2013 : 7:03:55 PM
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| I'm really glad you like the book! |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2013 : 05:38:17 AM
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Dear Yonatan,
I don't really know you (feel free to Friend me on FB!) but your vibe comes across really clear and warm and beautiful, so obviously something is "working." I appreciate your openness and willingness to be vulnerable. And I, too, am so very grateful for the kinship we share in this wonderful AYP sangha!
Everybody has shared some really great insights, above.
I can relate to what PastMorning said about psychedelics. In my experience, what has eventually happened is that the constant daily yoga/meditation practice over many years has brought me to the same place I sought many years ago through psychedelics - but, without the nausea and such. 
You said you are having kundalini experiences but the Thing you are seeking still eludes you. I also experienced that. It sounds like your process is unfolding normally.
Now, I want to share a slightly different point of view, from U.G. Krishnamurti, via my teacher, Mark Whitwell. Mind you, I don't always agree with U.G. or Mark, but I think this concept is relevant and maybe helpful here: U.G. said that the very act of "searching" itself creates the problem! i.e., the idea that there is Something Else to be attained, implies that you don't already have it, just as the longing for God implies that God is absent - which is not the case. As Mark put it, "You cannot get closer to God." God is right HERE. Everything you seek is already within you.
I know you know that, on an intellectual level, but sometimes it is useful to be reminded of it. At least, I find it helpful at times.
Please continue sharing! |
Edited by - Radharani on Oct 18 2013 05:39:15 AM |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2013 : 1:55:33 PM
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Dear brother Yonaton,
When I first read this thread, it occurred to me that it applies equally to all spiritual seekers, regardless of path or methodology, at some point or another, along the journey of awakening. It's perfectly normal to feel that one's "progress" is unbearably slow and measured ever so incrementally. I believe that we are all hard-wired to desire ecstatic states of conscious-awareness. We have an inborn capacity to desire euphoria and blissfulness. Furthermore, I intuit that much of your angst is related to the simple absence of the bliss-response. This intense longing for the spiritual ecstasy, is concurrent with the aching from within, to wholly merge within the Unified Field of Divine Being. You are not alone in this regard, as we all discover that the energy which infuses our practice with the living Spiritus, is still wanting. "Patience is a virtue."
It takes much effort to reach the goal of our attention. This is true when dowsing for water and when digging for gold or precious gemstones. Realistically, we can never know just how close we are to immediate contact with our chosen object of desire, unit we finally touch it's presence. Often times, we are the very closest to significant breakthroughs, immediately prior to great despair and disillusionment. It's a paradox for sure!
But as we are birthed within this dichotomy of sentient life, so there are surely phases and stages of opening up to this tremendous force. Too much, too soon, can fry the system, as with overloads of kundalini and too quick an expansion of consciousness. That being said, I say "go for it" and fear not, nor hesitate to cry out still louder, for Divine contact. And while time itself is a liar and a cheat, do not expect dramatic changes overnight. Let a few more decades of attunement settle and you will be please by the fullness inherent within the emptiness. After all, it's the journey of a lifetime... and then some.
But by in large, each soul desires the raising of higher energy levels and the expansion of one's perceptual horizons. In short, we crave the ecstasy of the bliss factor. It is our own quintessence. Out of such a high resolution of limitless indivisible energy, we emerge out of Godself... and in accordance with the laws of causality. While we are individually birthed of duality, we each shall return to this wholly insubstantial state, all in a rhythmic fashion. Brahman/God breaths out and KABOOM... the Omniverse is born! Brahman/God breaths in and all of existence is reabsorbed back into the ineffable reality behind the myriad appearances of this and that. Yet, the song remains the same and the word vibrates divinely, throughout the cosmic interplay. Listen carefully for the sound of Nada, the voice of the Spirit. 
You are not some kind of anomaly in this regard, for many of the greatest souls born upon the material plane, go through these exact conundrums. This is something we all share to one degree or another... that being, we feel the ache from within the mind's heart, to go into higher and still higher frequencies of euphorically exalted trance-states. It's as natural as longing for sunshine and blue skies overhead, after a prolonged period of overcast and/or stormy weather. Frankly, it's not a sign of your coming to an impasse or condition of stasis, rather, it is a very clear sign that you are on the right track!
As many of the good folks have already said in this thread, it's hard to see oneself as others see us. You/I/we all have no idea just how close you/I/we truly are to breaking-through to a new vista in conscious-awareness, because of the subject-object duality still circulating in your/my/our thought loops. In other words, much of the good benefit of Yoga is not so sudden or dramatic. Likewise, every sitting session cannot be an epiphany or a mind shattering, breakthrough experience. Honestly, it's not always like turning on a light switch... sometimes it's more like the slow rise of dawn, gradually and incrementally. It matter little, though, for the light arrives in it's own predestined manner and when it shines effulgently... we automatically and spontaneously see things clearly and reflect it's infinite brilliance.
It may be as simple as incremental degrees of spiritual saturation, versus the notion of an epic or mind-shattering shift. Regardless of what is happening in subtle ways, within our auras vibrational patterning, every effort we express towards clarity and insight, may not be like that which occurred to Moses on Mount Sinai. His was a sudden and dramatic awakening, the same as that which Sakyamuni experienced beneath the Bodhi Tree or the Divine revelation which Yeshua (Jesus Christ) experienced in the desert.
So, what is the major difference between slow integration and a more dramatic epiphany? I feel there is only the reference point of the time-space-continuum and as such, is an utter illusion we dream, as individual Jivas. If we step outside of ourselves, there is no difference and the dream dissipates as soon as awakening is experienced. The price for awakening is paradoxically, the sum total of ourselves... ego death, if you will. This, of course, is easier said than done or even than thought about in ideal terms.
But my point is this, when a soul is ripe and longing fervently for a spiritual awakening from the mortal dream of one's normal human modality, a fire is ignited within the mind's heart. One which never dies nor truly, can ever be dimmed. We have an innate sense that we are created to experience the sheer euphoria of unification. I have always loved the symbolism of Zarathustra's doctrine. Ahura Mazda is God of Light and the Sacred Fire is one of his many guises or appearances. Just as it is in the Rig Vedas and Zend Avesta.
Brahman reveals itself to itself (the One touching the many) through effulgence. Only the mind observing the changes of this and that... may be subject to falling in and out of direct attunement with this inner flame (but once ignited, it is always there, seeking fuel for it's innate need to burn brighter and still brighter).
As it has been said, "The hour is always darkest, right before the dawn." Likewise, when we as Sadhakas feel that little to no progress is happening, spiritually, it is often because we have gotten to the point where small changes in our interior state of mind, can no longer satisfy the limitless hunger of the Atman residing inside of us. This is a splendid sign of true progress. For when the neophyte meditater first embarks upon the Sacred journey realization, living fully and keenly in this present moment of the here & now, many obstacles rise to distract our internal focus. Habitual patterns of self-observation and the surge of desires which normally motivate the sentient personage's purpose for existence. Is this not so for each of us? It's not at all easy to still the turbulent thoughts and empty the mind, so as to bring one's attention unswervingly to stillness and in so doing (or undoing), open the attic door to the higher spheres above ordinary conscious-awareness.
I have found it helpful in my own sadhana, to view the journey of the seeker, not so much as attaining or discovering anything at all. Like the great Advaitin sage, Sri Ramana Maharshi, so eloquently states, when we follow the I-thought back to it's origins, then and only then, we will know Atman/God. Which I translate as this: when we allow ourselves to center our attention so deeply into our core epicenter of existential being... we find that we have always been That. Ergo, we fall in love with love itself.
So, from where I sit, you are in a wonderful place. Let the insatiable and unabated hunger grow more and more intense. Allow yourself to overcome the discontent for that "something else", which no one cannot feasibly put a finger on, to bloom exponentially. It's the culmination of all of our human desires and the destiny all beings must pass through, in accordance with the laws of the Omniverse.
As was mentioned before, within this discussion, a sudden expansion in conscious-awareness can suddenly happen with entheogenic usage (psychedelics like: LSD, psilocybin, mescaline and DMT). But no matter how glorious the peak experience is... we still must come down. Besides, the strain is far too sudden and overwhelming for most people. I wont go as far as to suggest it is so for all. Certainly, much good has been done and many significant healings have taken place for indigenous shamans and native initiates of the Sacred Medicine Wheel (like Black Elk or Maria Sabrina). But for most of those folks who imbibe of these powerful plant derivatives, containing chemical molecules which alter perception and shatter the illusion of reality, as we are trained to understand it... the transitional energy bloom is too rapid and the force is too great to benefit the voyager, without some risk or potential damage to the willing psyche, nerve channels and auric body.
That being said, it can be highly useful for some seekers and can initiate a life-long quest for enlightenment, as it did with myself, when I first inter-phased with them in the 1970s. Sri Neem Karoli Baba Maharaji even conceded to Baba Ram Dass (Dr. Richard Alpert), that in some individual cases, it is helpful for sadhana. But the potential for overload is quite severe! Hence, the meditative approach brings on mystical states with much less force and is not at all locked into a modality of chemical dependency.
We seek what we already are. You/I/we have eternally been no different than Brahman/God, for the Divine is all that exists. All else is but an impermanent dreamscape and just who is having the dream? You/I/us? No... neti, neti... it is God alone which seeks Godself. But WHY? Why manifest an illusory mirror to view one's formlessly insubstantial self, through the endless stream of ever-changing, substantial forms? I have asked myself this paradoxical question for nearly 40 years of sitting practice. No one can say, as the Truth can only be known when the subject and the object pass into immersion and there is realized no differentiation.
When to burning desire to experience the ecstasy and unbound state of blissfulness is so overwhelming that one would gladly sacrifice one's own life... the miracle happens. Grace descends from within and God touches Godself, instantly. Is this not the purpose for all of our spiritual training? It is vitally important to understand that we are not adding anything or attaining anything. We are already Sacred Being, enigmatically expressing itself through our unique appearance. Perhaps we are more accurately removing those things, habitual modalities or ideas... which keep our attention fixed upon the illusion we have dreampt for so many incarnations? Yes, this impermanent reality is all a dream! As Sri Papaji (Sri H.W.L Poonja) was fond of emphatically saying, "It never happened."
Thus, we have a riddle seated before our fixed attention. We cannot try to awaken, for essentially, we are already awake. Say what? It only takes the shift in conscious-awareness which then blooms as a remembrance of who and what we are and have always been. What is needed by any Jiva it the eclipsing of relative Self with the Absolute Self.... for we are already awake. In truth, everything is in reality, one and the same. So, we seek an answer and we seek profoundly soul shaking experiences. Good things for the Jivatman's voyage, integrate through proper grounding and center fully within the internal balancing act of living amongst other Jivas.
It cannot be done through reason or the attainment of conceptual knowledge... it can only be experienced through direct inter-phase. And I sincerely believe that in most cases, this takes a considerable amount of undoing and working through perceptual mirage after mirage, to naturally unfold before our attention. As Brahman/God is the only doer, let God take care of all the seemingly sequential details. Hold to your practices and allow yourself to become your true self, more and more so! Your truest self is also my truest self. There is but one being... and we share our deepest attributes, simultaneously. The one Paramatman which we each all share at our innermost core of this existential paradigm.
It is all about integration and attunement, up to a point... and then it is a momentous leap of faith, end over end, into the Clear Light of the Void. An act of direct intent, whereby we sacrifice ourselves to Brahman/God. And in so doing... we all find that we are the initial cause. We enter into Samadhi/Satori/Divine Rapture, as easily as breathing in and breathing out.
Hence, the Alpha and Omega dance eternally, throughout all the myriad dimensions of creation. Rejoice, dear Brother, "for you are at the precipice of a profound Sacred awakening. Keep the flame burning brightly, despite the lack of its dramatic appearance in your daily practice. There is a lovely Zen proverb which relates to this seeming dichotomy. "Waiting for fullness is the Way."
Allow your frustration and aching to be the very fuel for this Divine Flame. Give yourself to yourself and you will taste Moksha. Let the ego incrementally dissolve within the indivisible unity of the Supreme Being. Seek and ye shall find. And IMHO, what you shall find... is what you already are. Tat Tvam Asi. Is this not the greatest bliss and ecstasy of all?
You are a beautiful expression of Ishvara/God, brother Yonatan. Your gentle humility and kindness are clear to all of us. Awaken in your own unique way and release the troublesome mind-set, that you ought to experience this level or that level, in this or that time frame or sequence of events. Please don't measure your progress with your mind, my friend, measure it in your heart.
We can all clearly see your warmth and sincerity. In this way you are blessed. All you need do is continue to shine brightly"and offer the love you share with others and the beauty of your engagement in mortal life, to the reality behind all appearances, while living in this present moment. Itself, an eternity in the making.
Ultimately, it's all Ishvara/God's Lila. It's all Nataraja/God's universal dance. It's all Mother/God's shimmering Grace, playing hide and seek within herself. The ceaseless pulse and flow of the Tao, is what we all are. This is the gift we all we have been given, right here & now... this is it! Let your love light shine, as this love is an attribute of the Spiritus, as is the presence of light and the sound of the Sacred word emanating out of the Bindu.
You are beautifully honest, indeed, sweet Yonatan! And I humbly suggest that each of us steadily let the witness within ourselves allow itself to shift it's attention from the measurements of this and that, towards a seamless merging... an immersion within Holiness itself, a holistic unification blossoming gracefully and ever so sweetly. "As above, so bellow."
Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti |
Edited by - Govinda on Oct 18 2013 3:54:51 PM |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2013 : 7:05:31 PM
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Dear Radharani,
Thank you for your reply, and for the confirmation that my path is unfolding normally. I appreciate all that you said, and I do feel that something is working with the meditation. As you said I've heard many times the idea of "stop the search, it is all here within", and I do think that like that it may be key here, like others have said to not compare with others' path and be content with what I do have. Personally I can't "stop the search" because the Bhakti is inherent in me and trying to stop it would mean blocking it, which is never good, but I do understand the phrase and believe that when the time will come "the search" would just "fall off" and everything would just seem perfect as it is, because I know innately that that's how it really is.
Thanks again I really appreciate your words!
(BTW I am friends with you on FB )
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Edited by - Yonatan on Oct 18 2013 7:07:39 PM |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2013 : 8:29:28 PM
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Dear Brother Govinda,
I am so blessed by your presence and words, I felt them deeply in my soul and am so very honored to have you here. Thank you dear brother and friend. I will probably read your words here again as there is so much love and wisdom in them. I am really blessed!!
Namaste sweet being!!!
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2013 : 8:31:33 PM
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Dear everyone,
Thank you very much for your presence in my time of need, I deeply appreciate it and it made me feel and know deep inside that I am on the right track. You all shine so beautifully with your wisdom.
Blessed be!!! |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2013 : 9:57:53 PM
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"Slow and steadyl wins the race." Not that there is a race, or winners, but you get the point--this spiritual game is not a story of Revolution but of Evolution. Huge jumps in Consciousness are normally fairly traumatic, and in the long run, one is best served by taking their time and enjoying the view during the ride. So long as life is joyous, then we merely enjoy. Five years is really nothing at all, just a good beginning. Call me back in 20 or 30 years, after some real time has been devoted to your spiritual evolution, and we can compare notes. I began my practice of meditation 43 years ago and, basically, it's like this--the Light gets stronger every day, day by day, year by year, and life lives more of itself...
Namaste,
Michael |
Edited by - mikkiji on Oct 18 2013 9:58:57 PM |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2013 : 10:54:35 PM
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Namaste Michael
I'm sure you know the feeling of "want it now!" with the strong Bhakti.
I understand your point, and it makes sense. I think I got a bit confused by the words of some advaita teachers which say that meditation and practice will lead to nothing, like MrAnderson's phrase above about Jed Mckenna "throw the baby out with the bathwater".
I'll be patient and continue with my practice and enjoy the way
Love and thanks |
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2013 : 12:34:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
Have you listened to Jed McKenna's Spiritually Incorrect Enlightenment series? He can tend to throw the baby out with bathwater (I'm not sure if this idiom extends beyond the UK hence I post a link to an explanation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throw_...e_bath_water but I found this useful at the critical point of being frustrated with what I imagined was a lack of progress.
Those McKenna books are very interesting, although he seems to imply or flatly state that meditation and yoga are a waste of time, and not proper tools to achieve the (admittedly vague) states I/we are aiming for.
I've been listening to a lot of Alan Watts lately (which it seems McKenna did as well), and he too suggests that meditation is little more than a ruse, a distraction.
I'm a bit in the same boat as the original poster, but seeing as my experience is only 8 months in, and I've seen some "progress" (or at least change), I've not felt like things aren't going anywhere. But I feel the slowness and would be frustrated 4 years down the line with little in the way of milestones or indicators that my time was being well spent. |
Edited by - Yogaman on Oct 20 2013 1:23:23 PM |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2013 : 5:22:26 PM
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The question of practices and their relevance seems to be hotly disputed.
Are spiritual practices a fairly predictable and mechanical formula which we can just follow by rote and inevitably end up at our destination, which is this vague conception we have of "enlightenment"? IMO - No. Such an attitude might encourage complacency.
However, without abiding inner stillness, which is cultivated over years of meditation, finding progressive freedom from the tangled knot of identified awareness is going to be difficult and painful at best, highly improbable or impossible at worst. We're likely to end up believing the words of advaita teachers (their words aren't meant to be believed, they are meant to destroy beliefs) which is going to result in a very deluded and unhappy state of mind.
What Jed points to however is useful: That the most important thing you can do to is question what you absolutely know is true. Or to put it in a way that I prefer: What is absolutely true, if you don't believe anything, if you don't believe a single thought, if you don't believe anything you've ever learned, thought or believed?
He sows the seeds of disbelief. There is a quote from Adyashanti:
“Enlightenment is a destructive process. It
has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the
crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing
through the facade of pretence. It's the
complete eradication of everything we
imagined to be true.”
This summarizes what Jed is pointing to. For me this was helpful because it got me out of the trap of looking for some special state or experience, and for the first time I became interested in what is actually true on the absolute level? rather than "what can I get out of this/achieve/benefit". However removing untruth effectively requires a great deal of compassion, inner stillness, calm, intuition and sensitivity. You can't just charge in with the mind which arrogantly imagines it will unravel the whole problem overnight.
It is why I said "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" when I mentioned Jed McKenna's teaching. To learn to listen to everything we hear critically, with a mind that is very open and ready to try anything, yet also skeptical enough to rely on its own intelligence to ask questions rather than accepting the teaching as new belief, is the responsibility of every spiritual seeker. Then we easily take the good stuff, and leave the bad or irrelevant. Wherever there are words, concepts, there is a trap: The trap of getting stuck in believing the words, rather than getting an intuitive sense of their meaning, and how to make practical use of it, and then moving on.
Consistently cultivating the ability to be dispassionately aware of your thoughts, feeling and behaviors, rather than caught up in blindly identifying with them, is meditation. That is essential. However enlightenment I would cautiously venture is generally better served by a strong dose of doubt and disbelieve about EVERYTHING (time, space, identity, memory, concepts of what enlightenment is, the information you seem to get from your senses and everything you ever believed was true) rather than blind faith in an idea that practices are going to lead to one's imaginary conceptions of Nirvana where there will be no worries or concerns, a constantly pleasurable experience, and all-embracing never-ending love for all beings and so on. |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Oct 20 2013 5:29:11 PM |
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2013 : 7:30:23 PM
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mr_a: great points. I did find it amusing that McKenna emphasized the harrowing nature of the experience when using his technique, but then dismissed techniques such as meditation that from what I've gathered from my AYP reading, are designed specifically to allow one to deal with these experiences in a healthy way.
It reminded me of one of the AYP books where Yogani discusses the difference between asking the big questions before or after the rise of the inner witness. McKenna seemed to be describing just such an approach without the inner witness, which is derived from meditation practices…
But yes, I agree his writing is indeed helpful, and to look at things as a stripping away as opposed to an experience to achieve, well that can be helpful (if accurate).
Anyways, thanks again for the suggestion. His stuff was a good read. If you've not read "Mastering The Core Teachings of the Buddha" by Daniel Ingram, you would probably like it too. He's also got a no-nonsense approach to enlightenment, but he's a proponent of traditional approaches (meditation etc).
http://integrateddaniel.info/book/ |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2013 : 7:55:47 PM
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quote:
I did find it amusing that McKenna emphasized the harrowing nature of the experience when using his technique, but then dismissed techniques such as meditation that from what I've gathered from my AYP reading, are designed specifically to allow one to deal with these experiences in a healthy way.
It reminded me of one of the AYP books where Yogani discusses the difference between asking the big questions before or after the rise of the inner witness. McKenna seemed to be describing just such an approach without the inner witness, which is derived from meditation practices…
EXACTLY! There's absolutely no requirement for this process to be harrowing. Inevitably at times very strong emotions are felt and released. Some hard truths have to be confronted, and sometimes that isn't easy. Vigorous self-honesty is a necessity, and that is tough. But ultimately it strips away the layers which obscure our true nature, and the experiential consequence of this is an increasingly abiding and unshakeable peace, love, happiness, openess and freedom regardless of what is taking place in the world-appearance.
Thank you for sharing Daniel Ingram's work, although I am familiar, in fact his book, MTCTB is sitting up there on my bookshelf and I really enjoyed it. An absolute classic and must have for anyone interested in exploring the Buddhist way, the various Jhanas and so on. Advaita & Yoga resonate more here, but there's been great, permanent experiential benefit to exploring the Buddhist teachings related to No-Self, Impermanence and Emptiness.
Advaita doesn't paint an understanding of Emptiness as rich as that which comes from Nagarjuna and the Buddhist tradition. The teachings are often kind of hard to comprehend intellectually (at least were to me), and often not explained very well, I found "Emptiness & Joyful Freedom" by Greg Goode to be a good one for a practical exploration of that teaching - if you like that stuff. |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Oct 20 2013 8:04:17 PM |
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