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kami
USA
921 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 1:23:30 PM
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Off late, there is a widespread phenomenon I'm observing amongst those on the spiritual path (including myself), and that is of discordance. By this, I mean a "non-gelling" of where one thinks they are, and where one actually is.. Sharing my thoughts here, and wonder if others have noticed it as well.
In the beginning, we tend to be open, curious, humble, and hungry for progress. Taking up practices results in many openings. Additionally, more than ever before, there is easy access to an endless supply of books and teachings. It is often easy to begin to believe we are "there" prematurely, simply because we have "read about it", or somebody else has described it, or merely by the power of belief. However, glaring discrepancies continue to exist between that belief and our day-to-day life, that continues to be driven by compulsions. It is also easy to fool ourselves into thinking we have overcome all conditioning and that there are no more issues, just because we have had some profound openings. There are those exceedingly rare folks that have an awakening that becomes permanent (Ramana Maharishi, Eckart Tolle in recent times) - this is because they have been at this for innumerable lifetimes. For the rest of us, this is simply not the case. Taking an opening, no matter how profound, to believe we are "done" is simply fooling ourselves, yet another ego-driven thing. Moreover, with all the material available, it is easy to speak/write about the whole topic without true authenticity. There is such a strong desire to be different, to not suffer, to "overcome", that the belief of being special, of not suffering, of overcoming simply takes over, all of which simply strengthens the identity as the ego/separate self. Such is the indescribable (and not to be underestimated) power of the mind, and the great mother Maya.
The pitfalls of easy access to knowledge (and perhaps lack of a personal guide/guru to show us exactly where we are) present in many ways - a feeling of being "special" because of mystical experiences, acting "teacher", a holding on to the one that "knows", etcetera, all of which are subtle but strong ego traps, very much keeping the sense of separateness alive.
It is true that there is a greater awareness and movement toward spiritual openings all over the globe. It is probably also true that the vast majority think they have "made it", when they have not. It is easy to forget that there is no "making it" on this path. It takes immense courage, brutal honesty and a healthy dose of humility to look at one's own progress - to know exactly where we are, not where we want to be.
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Edited by - kami on Sep 05 2013 1:25:07 PM |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 2:15:11 PM
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Hi Kami,
First off, I don't know about your beginning, but in my beginning I was hungry for progress but also extremely arrogant and deeply identified as a separate self! The past 15 years of my life have primarily been showing me my arrogance and beating me down again, and again, and again. At first it was very painful, but increasingly I wish for it, I will it, I hope to be beaten down - that's the way to freedom.
The "illusion of attainment". I was thinking over this earlier today, it's an interesting one. I agree with you that there is some discordance out there, but this bound to be part of the process. I think the tricky part of awakening (the awakening to Awareness type of awakening) is that part of the realization is you realize it has always been there, you always already were That.
It's very easy for the mind to turn that into a position it identifies with: the experience "I already am That", becomes a belief "I already am That". Of course, a body-mind believing "I already am That" is just ego retreating into a different vestige. In fact: as soon as you believe ANYTHING about where you are you've entered a false identification, which is gonna mess you up, because Awareness is nothing and everything. Ironically, the consequence of identifying with the position "I already am That", is that spiritual progress may not only halt, but start to reverse. I experienced this during my first awakening to awareness in 2012. I misunderstood Bhakti, thinking that it wasn't relevant any longer. I then slipped backwards considerably in the first part of 2013.
But I don't personally see slipping as a problem, in fact it's wonderful! When climbing any mountain, one occasionally slips. But the slip enhances one's focus and concentration, humbling one by alerting one to the precarious nature of one's own position, increasing the determination to continue with a forward movement, and hopefully seasoning one with humble wisdom to prevent a repeat occurrence.
However, it's my experience that one can FEEL the inauthentic nature of an illusion of attainment, or a subtle vestige of ego in the body. Where there is wrong identification, there is suffering, and a feeling of separateness. You can't deny it for long.
When you've got a taste of the initial awakening, there are two paths you can take:
1. To continue spotting identification, and then turning attention back upon Awareness, firmly taking your stand there.
2. To perpetuate the habits, behaviors and energy of a separate self.
One path leads to joy, and a growing sense of oneness and unity. It leads to knowing the inherent freedom and boundlessness of one's own nature.
The other path leads to suffering, subtle at first, getting worse and more unbearable until you can no longer deny it.
If my ego has hooked itself into a subtle vestige: I'm going to start having an increasingly awful time until I can no longer deny I've screwed up. The thing about Truth and Happiness is that they are same thing. You can't have happiness without truth, and when than that connection is made being deeply honesty with oneself is just the most intelligent way to act.
In other words: Every time I'm making a mistake life slaps me back into humility, by bringing me the divine gift of suffering. Suffering is just the intelligent, loving response of the body-mind to thoughts, feelings and actions which are out of alignment with the Truth.
But at the same time, even Suffering contains a subtle trap of ego. One can start saying "I screwed up, I this, I that", having the wrong identification that one is not Brahman. It's not necessary to identify with a separate self who has erred, having a wrong identification will simply worsen the situation. All that's necessary is to intelligently evaluate where the thoughts, feelings and actions have gone wrong, and adjust accordingly.
Preferably: step up practices, and step up inquiry into the relative self - assessing every thought, feeling and action and looking at what place it is coming from, but first and most important: Take your stand as the timeless, formless Awareness that you are - because otherwise wrong identification will turn you into a doer, a sinner, who needs to do something to purify yourself.
I constantly ping in and out of knowingly experiencing myself as That. Just yesterday there was a wonderful expansive deepening beyond name and form, and then in the afternoon I got a little bit grumpy on the phone to my mom. Lol. It's no big deal! Old conditioning of a separate self will continue to arise! It's been operative for decades, perhaps lifetimes! None of that changes your identity, if you take your stance firmly as the Self, continue practices, be aware of awareness, dis-identify from objects, inquire into the Relative self and its dubious motivations, the old conditioning gets seen and released increasingly automatically. It becomes easier and easier to notice when you've slipped: mainly because one becomes more and more motivated to not slip, because of the agonizing pain of slipping!
There are two other strategies that help. Firstly even when I'm experiencing an awakening I know to continue with intense Bhakti. There's something about intense Bhakti that cuts through any mind-made BS, because when you're longing for God, he'll keep showing you what you're doing to obstruct his presence. Finally, when nothing works, no practices, no awareness techniques, no self inquiry (and we all have points where everything stops working) at this point I just cry out to Him, desperate for him, knowing that I am absolutely nothing without his Grace. That practices work by his Grace alone. That all my strategies and techniques on the path are animated solely by Him.
I can't fake this, or plan this, it's so desperate and raw. It's unfair even to say I do it. The very desperate and raw nature of such a cry to God is given to us by his Grace. |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Sep 05 2013 2:42:07 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 3:39:26 PM
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Nice post Josh. I especially like the paragraph about how suffering is really a blessing as it shows us where we are still identified and have work to do. And I like how you also pointed out that we can sometimes become sub/unconsciously identified with "the one who erred."
Kami...
I hear what you are saying, and I agree that it can be easy to "land," especially after having some mystical/enlightenment type experiences. It's easy to hold onto an experience and declare a "status" (even if it is only internally).
I also recognize your statement about what I've been calling "the special complex." I posted a brief "calling out" of myself on this recently here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....13271#113290 (for some reason the link is going to the OP not the post I'm talking about. The post I'm referencing is the one made Aug 24 2013 : 08:10:53 AM ). What I realized however, once I dug deeper into this feeling of being special or superior, was that the opposite was actually more true. Recently I wrote this about it:
"... last weeks podcast (for me) was centered around the realization that "the special complex" has been running strongly lately here. But once this was highlighted, the inquiry/observing that resulted brought to light the exact opposite. I do NOT feel special, but merely want to FEEL special and have been unconsciously setting myself up in situations where the result could be others telling/showing me that they think I am special. This helped me to see that I am still just a hurt little child and brought some self compassion into the picture (before it was mostly self-deprecation)."
You said: "It is true that there is a greater awareness and movement toward spiritual openings all over the globe. It is probably also true that the vast majority think they have "made it", when they have not. It is easy to forget that there is no "making it" on this path. It takes immense courage, brutal honesty and a healthy dose of humility to look at one's own progress - to know exactly where we are, not where we want to be."
I'm really not sure how you (or anyone) could know what is true for "the vast majority." All I know (and probably not even that) is what is happening here. And here, there is non-stop inquiring into the personal conditioning and areas of identification. For example, this is something I recently wrote about regarding some conditioning I am now having to look at:
"This weeks podcast (for me) was centered around the realization (which was politely gifted to me by my wife ) that I am incapable of admitting I am wrong and saying sorry. She told me that she has been keeping score and that I have only apologized to her 3 times in the last 8 years. This was a hard one to swallow as you will see if you ever listen to this podcast. FWIW I have apologized to her twice since then (2 days ago)." (actually several times more since that was written)
Personally, I find it more advantageous to focus on my own issues and blockages and let Life gift other's with experiences that expose their own shortcomings. Hasn't always been that way, but it is now. (forgive me as in reading this after posting, it reads kinda harsh... wasn't intended to be that at all.) 
Love,
Carson |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 7:04:26 PM
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Well said, Kami. In regards to the subject, Chogyam Trungpa wrote the book on "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" (which i would recommend for 'aspirants', 'arhats', and 'enlightened' folks).
I agree that the phenomenon you describe seems to be common. IMO, it is a sort of natural progression given the notion that it is possible for a person to become 'enlightened'.
We have for so long measured
ourselves with relative conceptual yardsticks... of course that doesn't tend to come to a halt once we start down 'the spiritual path.'
Imo, it is necessary to look at the patterns of thinking, especially self reflective thoughts/patterns/statements. (and simply notice what they really are- just thoughts). Ask/remember "who is aware of the thoughts? Is that thought really what I am?" etc. Also, to remember/recognize that words are merely symbols with no inherent truth. That may seem so basic, but it is often overlooked to such a degree that we take the concept to be the actual thing. Next, define the terms. For example, what exactly is meant by X? If we are buying the thought(s) of "l am _____", the least we can do is investigate them for accuracy.
Another effective strategy (to guard against ego-mania) is to
notice/remember that ego is a phenomena. It comes and goes.
With all of these things, in my experience, they exist in a relative way. We could consider it as a sort of spectrum. Some thoughts might be more accurate and/or helpful than others (such as "who am I? ... I am... Aware... Here now" etc.)... using thought in a deliberate, conscious way.
But for most of us, we have for much of our lives experienced and continue to experience conditioned self thoughts, which
often appear as patterns. Some folks might lean toward self loathing, for some self pride is more common. I've experienced (and believed) many variations of each. It can improve with sincerity, authenticity, & inquiry. The patterns can lose traction and momentum. Anything can occur, and it is not a threat or a problem at all.
Just some thoughts. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 8:47:26 PM
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Thank you everyone.
Carson, thank you for sharing your lessons in humility.
Chas, thank you for nailing exactly what I was trying to say. I will check out that book for sure.
With myself, this has been a humorous observation. Last year, there was a big opening ("awakening" experience), and after a while, I noticed that somewhere along the way, I had assumed the identity of the one that "knew". And simply noticing that with a sincere wondering of "who" it was that knew, the whole thing became obvious. The ego had come in again, soundlessly and without announcing itself.
Josh, what you describe to be a choice of two paths after an awakening experience, is not a choice that "I" as an ego-identified one can make. If I've truly had an "awakening" experience, there is no "choice" to make, for who would be making that and based on what? It is impossible for anyone to "choose" to remain in an awakened state, for awakening is not a state at all. However, it is indeed true that suffering is a teacher. The path of tantra is to use everything (suffering, ego identification, joy, sorrow, whatever) as a doorway into the divine, for nothing exists out of the realm of divine.. But here again is the issue - we can say and believe this, but keep pushing suffering and unpleasantness away from our conscious minds. Discordance.
Any time we have become identified as the one that knows, or has it or "is" it, we can be sure it isn't "it". However, this seeing takes quite a bit of honesty on our part. We so badly want to be free of our old limiting identities that this one seems a whole lot better. As an example, in my pre-seeking days, I might have felt inadequate in many ways - now here is the opportunity for me to feel better about myself, in my "mystical" or "healing" abilities, or repeated declarations of "I am That". Pretty soon, I'm going to be giving sermons about my "realizations", because my experiences are heavily influenced and supported by external material. See? 
As long as the "knowledge" of freedom is owned, it is still bondage. This is the meaning of Yogani's words when he talks about giving it all away, including the trip of being the "knower." Wonder if this was one reason why spiritual knowledge (books, etc) were very hard to find in olden days, guardedly given to the few that were found "worthy". (Certainly not saying that is preferable, but simply wondering..)
Yes of course, we can only know where we are, and it is indeed not our business where anyone else is. However, the beauty of a spiritual community is the ability to help each other with blind spots (a benefit similar to the ashrams of the old days where the disciple brothers and sisters did the same thing to assist each other). I, for one, would appreciate my friends pointing out any discordance between my conduct in day to day life and where I might claim to be. Simply more fodder for inquiry and samyama. Really, there is no grand prize to be had in spiritual advancement. If we truly want to grow, we need to be willing to see and let go every last vestige of this "wealth" we seem to collect along the way.
Love you all dearly. |
Edited by - kami on Sep 05 2013 9:43:09 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 9:37:40 PM
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Ownership is always tricky as anything can be owned. Even the concept of "helping" can be owned. "I am helping..." The habits of the body/mind are deeply ingrained and even *these* can be owned. It all has to be looked at eventually and Life is on our side. It is here constantly putting lessons in front of us that continue to force us to look closer and closer at ourselves. This thread is a great example of Life helping in that way.  Everything in its own time as even the concept of controlling the speed of unfolding can be owned. 
Love,
Carson  |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 06:32:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chas
In regards to the subject, Chogyam Trungpa wrote the book on "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" (which i would recommend for 'aspirants', 'arhats', and 'enlightened' folks).
Started reading this book. Gosh, it is really fantastic and describes this exact thing beautifully. Thank you Chas.
The subtlety with which discordance occurs is funny. We can, for example, say that there is no way to know where someone else is, but feel special or superior, which by default means somewhere deep down we believe we are better than everyone else (definition of "superior").
Life certainly gives us opportunities in every moment. The ego can manipulate those lessons to fit its own perspective.
Love. |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 07:38:21 AM
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Thanks Kami I appreciate your writing.
I'm really not sure what to make of this. The nature and bounds of identity and non-differentiation are not clear to me. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 10:17:41 AM
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You know, with great wisdom and total prudence, Yogani reminded me that the teachings elucidated in AYP are to be applied to my PERSONAL path, not to others. In that sense, when it comes to identifying pitfalls like "the illusion of attainment", those pitfalls are to be identified within the scope of my own mental structure, my own beliefs, my own somewhat erroneous tendencies.
Like a little brat, I've wanted to target certain teachers that I PERCEIVE to fall into the trap of the illusion of attainment, when all I needed to worry about is whether I'm falling into the trap! A fine point, indeed. The former is an external, subjective analysis; the latter is an introspective exercise of self-inquiry and discovery. However, I do believe it's true that the more I know myself, the more I know others. "It takes one to know one." Therefore, the more I can recognize this illusion of attainment within myself, the more I can see it in others. Similarly, the more I recognize and discern the flow of divine love within myself, the more I can discern it coming from others. This is how it works, yes? Seeing SELF everywhere, in everyone? This is where I've found freedom in daily life, and my hunger for THAT has not receded nor dwindled. It increases, it refines, it expands.
quote:
Originally posted by kami
There are those exceedingly rare folks that have an awakening that becomes permanent (Ramana Maharishi, Eckart Tolle in recent times) - this is because they have been at this for innumerable lifetimes. For the rest of us, this is simply not the case.
Sticking to Yogani's reminder that my place is not to discredit nor target the spiritual validity or status of others, I will merely offer the suggestion that, if it's not my place to discredit (bash) a certain teacher by proposing that they're suffering an illusion of attainment, why should I go the other direction and suppose that a teacher has acquired a "PERMANENT" awakening (which, apparently, eludes the rest of us "common folk" who still have lifetimes of karma to eradicate).
This seems to be equally useless--instead of cutting a teacher down, I'd just be placing them on a pedestal by giving them the designation of being "permanently" awake. What's so wondrous and beautiful about AYP is Yogani's emphasis on the teaching, rather than the teacher, and he never professes to have had a permanent awakening. In fact, one of the most profound forum posts I've read from him said something to the effect that he's never reached a plateau that didn't elevate to an even higher plateau.
So, I will not critique nor try to repress kami's choice to believe that Eckhart Tolle has achieved a "permanent" awakening. In fact, I will celebrate and congratulate her for having found a teacher of such stature. If that brings her more divine love, bravo! That is good.
For me, I will regard Eckhart Tolle, Yogani, and any other spiritual teacher for that matter, like this: as a mere mortal, a human being, a child of God...no more worthy of divine love, ecstatic bliss, or Oneness that the next guy. And on that note, I won't believe that I personally have such a mountain of karma that I'm unable to be an outpouring of divine love, to experience ecstatic bliss, to be liberated IN THIS LIFE. Enlightenment is HERE and NOW, for everyone, and that includes all the poor souls who are starting lower on the rung than perhaps more advanced practitioners.
There's people in my office--right HERE, right NOW--who have never meditated a day in their life, but who I nevertheless perceive to be outpourings of divine love. How do I perceive THAT? Because they give without expectation of return. Because they share small gestures, small gifts, small swells of warmth and affection just for the sake of giving them away. That's REAL. That's what's up in the neighborhood. That's heaven on earth. I'm sure everyone can find similar examples in their own life...with or without a spiritual teacher.
Great sharing this virtual space with y'all!! Miracles abound. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 10:56:51 AM
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Thanks for sharing Bodhi.
Appreciate your candor very much. However, I have never made a statement that Tolle is my only teacher. For those who can see, everyone and everything is a teacher.
This thread is about seeing the tendency of the ego self to prematurely claim having "arrived" THERE ( wherever there is for each of us!), not about fault-finding, becoming defensive, or getting into wordy arguments with each other - all of that is pointless and futile. I was describing the tendency I have seen in myself, that has resulted in a sort of pulling back. And examining my own motives, words, patterns under a microscope - finding that lo and behold, "knowing" is an obstacle to true letting go. Because there is a someone that knows and can get pretty smug about it, perhaps not outwardly but deeeeep down.
This above is my finding as I open up in honesty, letting go of any self-image and tearing down all remnants of pride in ownership. It may not be yours (or anyone else's). In that case, more power to you.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 11:23:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
However, I have never made a statement that Tolle is my only teacher.
Your statement wasn't that Tolle was your "only teacher". Your statement was that Tolle's awakening has become permanent. "There are those exceedingly rare folks that have an awakening that becomes permanent (Ramana Maharishi, Eckart Tolle in recent times)".
It was upon that comment that I based some of my post. I did not comment on the merits, or lack thereof, of Tolle being your only teacher.
There's an element of precision in the discussion.
I'm glad you see the TEACHER everywhere and in everything. I share that sentiment. And for what it's worth, I regard you, kami, as a fine teacher, and as a conduit that is actively serving as an outpouring of divine love. In fact, you are much realer to me than other teachers I have merely read about in books.
Love. Unity. Strength. Wisdom. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 11:28:53 AM
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Also, just for the record, I have 0% interest in engaging in "wordy arguments". That was not my purpose, and I apologize if my post came across as seeking to incite an argument.
What I do have in interest in is: discussing, affirming, illuminating, and sharing these spiritual experiences and truths with fellow practitioners.
Power to the people! |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 11:43:00 AM
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Thank you for the kind words my dear Bodhi. Ok, I stand corrected.
Ramana Maharshi, once he had the awakening "thing" happen, never came back to an ego-identified state. Could he have and we just don't know? It's possible. Unfortunately for me, I did not meet him (at least in the physical realm). Eckart Tolle also seemingly underwent a "permanent" awakening - once again, no way to corroborate any of this. How can this even be measured?? Anyways, that was not the main point of my original post, so I apologize if that was tangential.
The point is that awakening is rarely a one time thing. The pull of the ego/vasanas is so great that we tend to get drawn in. There is nothing one can "do" to make it happen or not or to "stay" awakened after an opening - all of it is pure Grace. As Ramana says, "It is by the God's grace that we think of God."
Those who do awaken have no need to proclaim they are done, or to discuss their "achievements".. If there is a push to do that, we can be sure we are not "done". Spiritual progress comes through in how we live our ordinary, mundane lives. And looking at these ordinary things with honesty tells us exactly where we are.
Love.
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Edited by - kami on Sep 06 2013 11:45:13 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 11:59:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
The point is that awakening is rarely a one time thing. The pull of the ego/vasanas is so great that we tend to get drawn in. There is nothing one can "do" to make it happen or not or to "stay" awakened after an opening - all of it is pure Grace. As Ramana says, "It is by the God's grace that we think of God."
Those who do awaken have no need to proclaim they are done, or to discuss their "achievements".. If there is a push to do that, we can be sure we are not "done". Spiritual progress comes through in how we live our ordinary, mundane lives. And looking at these ordinary things with honesty tells us exactly where we are.
Yes, yes, yes! Let me sound off with a virtual horn and an inner celestial orchestra the joy I experience upon reading these words of your's.
From the tips of my toes, to the tips of my fingers, my body glows like a little light bulb, and this glowing emanates outward. How divine it is that small little words can evoke such a reaction! What a gift from God that we can find joy in mundane things. C'mon, don't lie, I know you feel it! There's no shame in this condition.
Thank you for your mercy and for your resonance. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 1:19:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
...
What a gift from God that we can find joy in mundane things. C'mon, don't lie, I know you feel it! There's no shame in this condition.
Every moment is mystical...
or for those who prefer the quiet approach...
Mystical = Mundane.
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 1:34:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Every moment is mystical...
or for those who prefer the quiet approach...
Mystical = Mundane.
Very true Jeff. Thank you. As long as the mundane is not pushed away for the mystical or the mystical constantly sought routinely for the sake of "collecting" spiritual stuff, because there again is the temptation to be special/different..(which as you know, is ego-driven )
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 4:09:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Every moment is mystical...
or for those who prefer the quiet approach...
Mystical = Mundane.
Very true Jeff. Thank you. As long as the mundane is not pushed away for the mystical or the mystical constantly sought routinely for the sake of "collecting" spiritual stuff, because there again is the temptation to be special/different..(which as you know, is ego-driven )
Well said, jeff and kami.
Just to reiterate a splendid AYP teaching (http://www.aypsite.org/428.html - Transformation of Ego)...
It is the ego that is the primary vehicle of enlightenment. Therefore, I find it very wise to regard it as a friend, rather than an enemy. Less resistance that way. More progress. At times when I was younger, I used to go to battle with my ego, but the ego just fought back harder! So, I've just to had to say: "Good little ego, I'm going to pet you and feed you some good food. Here little ego, I have some new food. It is the food of finding miracles in both the mystical and mundane." And little ego has said: "Yes, that tastes good. Please keep feeding me that. That will sustain me and bring me great joy." |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 5:14:31 PM
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Hi everyone,
Very interesting topic. The thing that comes up for me when reading Kami's initial post was my own tendency when confronted with a thread/topic/question to unconsciously fall into the mode of trying to be a "teacher" in some way or to demonstrate some experience/knowledge that--without actually claiming anything--demonstrates a level of attainment, which can be a very subtle thing. Or to respond in a way that that indicates, "yes I've experienced that too, but I've overcome that, now let me tell you how..."
The thread was a good reminder for me to try to approach these things with a "beginners mind"...staying open, resting in a place of not knowing, being a student instead of wanting to be a teacher. Discussing instead of defending a point-of-view. And there can be great freedom in the "not knowing" and in the not needing to "know". Whatever I think I know today, I'm probably know differently tomorrow 
Also it has to do with the fact that I'm lazy, so sometimes its just easier not to bother knowing 
Anywhooo...
Love you all! |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 6:31:36 PM
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I don't think the roles are the problem, but getting caught up in the role is suffocating (for lack of a better word). I play teacher role to my kids sometimes, but that doesn't mean that I am or believe myself to be some wise all knowing teacher. If it was the role that was the problem, we would have a lot of problems, wouldn't we?
Thankfully we all have roles to play, and others play roles to us. Many have been through similar things and are willing to speak/write. In the subject of spirituality in particular, that would be a challenging one to play IMO...with all the ego hunters around, 'teachers' are bound to get shot at. |
Edited by - chas on Sep 06 2013 6:50:25 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 7:26:59 PM
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I agree that the roles are not a problem... who decides how to define "the role" anyway? For me, the key is motivation... what is the motivation behind my action. If the motivation is to feel special, to be seen in a specific way, to teach someone something (which indicates that "I am the knower") then there is a problem... I'm identified with a belief in a separate self. Anytime I attach to the "teacher" or a "knower" or "special" roles etc, Life gives me a severe pee-pee slapping. Thank God for that!!
Love,
Carson
P.S. Parallax, you're sooooooo lazy. |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 7:45:27 PM
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I agree Chas, in manifest life, we all assume roles, appropriate to the occasion. Being a human being is just a role we are playing, the body a garment, picked up and discarded. What matters is to remember who we are in Truth, even while playing the roles.
This is a great discussion.
It's affected me on two levels:
Firstly, initially on reading there was an inner push toward "defending a point of view". So like you Parallax, this was a fantastic reminder to move toward discussing instead. What happened here is initially quite a strong emotional reaction, accompanied by "defensive" thoughts arose. Thoughts and feelings attempted to contract into a separate self, with an identified point of view to defend. This was beautiful to watch. I just sat down, and breathed calmly, allowing it to happen exactly as it wanted to, with no interference. Then eventually, like a black cloud passing overhead, the contraction abated and there was some sort of release. So thanks Kami for highlighting an area for inquiry for me! I appreciate it! I love to look into those things that are most painful to look at, they are the ones that set you free. It reminds me of that Vigdis Garbarek poem that Carson posted a while ago. Because of this reaction, I held the topic of this post in my heart for a long time, looking to see if it was true for me. However, beyond feeling that perhaps some of my posts could've been misinterpreted as a claim to attainment, and the fact that I sometimes spout direct pointing (just for the love of it, and I love it when other people do it too, because it takes me right to the spot - suddenly noticing and automatically letting go of conditioning) [and maybe I shouldn't bother people with my pointing unless they ask me for it], I don't feel an inner resonance of truth with the discordance idea.
At least, the thoughts and feelings that arise here say they don't see much discord. Of course these thoughts are only one point of view, and ultimately, who cares. I'd also love to be wrong here, because to see my own foolish errors (of which I'm sure there are many) and mis-perceptions is liberating. The feeling is that the idea of discord doesn't resonate with what I've seen from all the people here on AYP who are "generously sharing their experiences" (as Yogani once put it). Despite all the sharing of experiences, I don't see anyone claiming they've made it?? I see people sharing experiences of big openings, really enjoying the freedom, and continuing to fervently practice and keep growing.
Firstly, this very forum we're posting in, as described by Yogani "This forum is for sharing experiences on the road to enlightenment. Seeing milestones as we travel along can encourage us to keep up our practices." I think anyone who shares their experiences is going to risk being criticized for claims to attainment but so be it.
Why am I practicing AYP today? Because I came into the Enlightenment Milestones forum, and I started reading the stuff people had written here. Regular folks, obviously making progress, and having some shifts in perspective and real openings. Kirtanman in particular - his ecstatic posts completely blew my mind. They were also highly instructional and contained great "direct pointing". This is why I believed in AYP, why I practiced, and everyone's generous and open sharing of their experiences inspires and uplifts me. I love to hear when practitioners with a bit of experience are having identity shifts, which whilst often not permanent, and fairly unstable, are important Enlightenment Milestones (not claims to attainment IMO). I love also to hear of people who are just starting out, and seeing their first signs. And everything in between. Even if someone goes a bit wild with their descriptions, having been a bit overexcited by their experience, I'm happy for them while it happens, and I know life will eventually take care of any over-exuberance for them without my doing anything.
Secondly - What is the principle AYP is built on? AYP is both Open Source (meaning everyone contributes with their experience, and shares techniques and advice - this not a subtle egotism of teaching, it's trying to be helpful) and it's also meant to be a sort Spiritual Science - practitioners doing their stuff and then logging their results and sharing them with everyone else. Well, we could all just keep completely silent about our experiences, and never share advice or anything we deem helpful, until in 10 lifetimes we reincarnate as Ramana Maharshi the Second, for fear that sharing our experiences and our own slices of wisdom (which everyone here has) before we have complete and final ego dissolution will establish us in a subtle egotism... I'd rather take the risk of being criticized, or even damaging my own progress (there's no such thing in fact - when you identify with a role, and the ego is feeding off it, eventually that's just another thing that you benefit from seeing and letting go of - the people here are a pretty self-aware bunch and I think everyone is keen to honest with themselves), if it's going to make a valid contribution to the logging of experiences in the open source community that AYP is.
Thirdly - As for claims of attainment, I just don't really see people claiming attainments, sharing experiences yes - but no wild claims out there yet. The only post I've ever seen that came close to sounding a bit like a claim to attainment was Karl's "enlightenment demystified". The title was a bit extreme. But you know what - it really inspired me to keep practicing. And ultimately, I don't think Karl did develop a subtle ego from his post, he doesn't even seem to post here much these days. I'm sure he had a big opening, and it was nice of him to share it, in the Enlightenment Milestones forum which is designed for that purpose.
I think most people share their experiences because they're having happiness and they want to spread it around, not out of a sense of smug superiority or 'having made it'. The very idea leaves a disgustingly bad taste in my mouth: It's so completely contrary to the innocent and ever fresh Joy and loving happiness that I associate with the openings that are happening over the years. There's no superiority in this! This feeling is only happy because its devoid of separation! WRT to sharing advice - Maybe they got some insights that are useful - I've probably learned as much or more from other spiritual practitioners who tried to help me out and share an insight than I have from the various dead sages like Nisargadatta whose quotes I like to read all the time.
It's like if something goes really well in my life one day, I'm going to call my mom and my girlfriend, because I'm super happy and want to share it. It's not because I've got a subtle egotism and I'm deriving a superior identity from my experience of happiness. I'd do the same thing with the constant, freeing and delightful changes that spiritual practices have brought into my life - but unfortunately my mom and my girlfriend would basically think I was talking Chinese.
I dunno, that's my two cents. I love sharing, I love others sharings, I don't see anyone on AYP who has got a real 'claim to attainment' (frankly they'd be busted pretty quickly) or a "I've made it complex (life just kicks the crap of you when you get one of those) and finally AYP actually has a specific forum for and ethos of sharing experiences, and sharing advice and techniques with other practitioners. I don't see anyone here who thinks they have made it. I don't think I have 'made it', the very thought would be instantly seen as erroneous and destructive to happiness. I don't see anyone claiming they have made it. I don't even see Yogani claiming he has. Where then is the discord?
Even outside of AYP, there's a lot of half-baked Advaita teachers around these days, who have a dubious level of ego-dissolution, and mediocre teaching ability. They kind of had a little awakening and became a full-time teacher. But that's all good too - by comparison one knows how to sort the wheat from the chaff. Furthermore, if they have genuinely got some insight, and they are able to help just one person by free up some identification with their efforts, then something good happened. No need to be incarnate perfection: we can leave that to false, rose-tinted memories of dead people. The rest of us will continue being human, trying our best, messing up, learning from it. |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Sep 06 2013 10:15:03 PM |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 7:49:50 PM
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Hey Chas!
How are you my brother?
I don't think roles are a problem; i was more alluding to the attitude/intention that I sometimes bring to these spiritual discussions...am I really open to learning and willing to let go of my preconceived notions or did I come with the intention of demonstrating my level of experience and defending "my" PoV. I would find myself mentally dissecting other people's viewpoints looking for points where I thought they were wrong...which didnt leave space for openness
I recently reread Zen Mind, Beginners Mind and liked the line that was someing like "in the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts mind there are few" . I wanted to be an expert, someone who knew...sometimes I still do
And to be clear I am just speaking to the noticing of my own tendencies with some of these things
I've already said too much
Love ya bro |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 7:53:22 PM
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| Cross-posted Joshji and Carsonji |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 7:55:17 PM
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| No worries Parallax-ji |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 11:00:03 PM
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Yes I agree with Carson - Parallax, you *are* lazy. And yet, you drip with authenticity and wisdom. You bring up exactly what I've been trying to say, only in a much more elegant way. Thank you.
Bodhi: The issue with ego is most certainly not that it needs to be killed or annihilated. It is the identification as the separate self that is the real issue, not the separate self itself. Even after awakening, we will need to live in the transactional world and play our roles. The difference is that there is no longer a tight and possessive identification with that separate self - even while playing the roles, that ego is "worn" lightly..
No worries Josh - I catch myself wanting to defend my position all the time. It is humbling.. A while ago, Chas and I were in a heated argument about something (I no longer recall why) and I was "righteously indignant" about my position. Finally exasperated, he asked, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be free?" At this, the active ego-mind simply shut up and there was a greater perspective that could manifest.Thank goodness for wise friends like Chas, who are not afraid to call a spade a spade and who will not sugar coat things when appropriate.
Last week, I was teaching and rounding on the inpatient service, and a very sick young woman came in to the ICU - due to multiple underlying conditions it was difficult to figure out what the cause of her acute sickness was. It was interesting to see that all the attending physicians, including me, were quietly going over the case, freely admitting we didn't really know what was going on. But, the residents and fellows just knew; they had elaborate theories, boisterous declarations and heated arguments about why this could only be x, y or z (obviously the attending physicians were complete idiots, according to them). I watched the fellow (doctor in advanced sub specialty training) and the senior resident on my service go at it for a while and finally told them they needed to cool it. There was no sufficient evidence for either of their theories (turned out later they were both wrong and ahem, their attending was right).. Yet, I could empathize with them - it is exactly at this phase of training that arrogance sets in. Only when we have been in practice for a while does humility return. Not that different from the spiritual path.
What seems true to me at the moment is that enlightenment/self-realization or even great spiritual advancement means nothing if our "house isn't in order", where we continue to have hang-ups about relationships, intimacy, love, poverty/not having enough money, co-workers, cancer, parents, brother, sister, healthcare, government, policy, gluten, whatever. It is so easy to try to separate the two - a "spiritual" side with mystical powers or knowledge and a "non spiritual" side with a whole closet of "stuff", and bypass or glaze over all those parts of ourselves, make elaborate and very "spiritual" excuses for them or to not acknowledge them at all. There is simply no aspect that can be ignored or disowned simply because it doesn't neatly fit into our idea of spiritual attainment. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. And the pudding is whether we live our lives in complete integrity, baring it all.
The more I open to this, the more I marvel at Yogani's simple teaching of: do the practices, go about your life's activities, and don't focus so much on scenery. Such profound wisdom!
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2013 : 01:59:21 AM
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| I'm going to suggest that Mr. Anderson run for President. We need a man of that caliber at the helm. LOL. I'm just semi-kidding, but really Josh, your post above is crisp, clear, and skips like a smooth stone skimming across a placid lake. Like everything else, these words will sink to the bottom of The Ocean of Pure Bliss Consciousness, where all vibrations originate from, and where all is destined to return. Infinite depth! |
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Discordance
