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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 26 2013 : 08:02:48 AM
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Who is it that "becomes enlightened"?
If all is One, why does one human being know this by experience and another is looking for it?
What is behind that human being that knows/realizes?
When an "enlightened" being says: "You are the Supreme Being", which part that is uniquely connected to this enlightened being is speaking?
What is this individual awareness that knows all is One?
All questions aim at asking the same.. Just many ways of asking so the question may be clear..
These are not urgent questions.. I don't "need" an answer. They just popped in my mind and I felt inclined to post.. And see what responses may come..
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Edited by - Omsat on Aug 26 2013 08:06:53 AM |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2013 : 10:47:36 AM
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This calls to mind some words of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, that upon his consciousness joining in mahasamadhi, he is able have an impact on the state of consciousness of everyone as a whole.
I like the questions you put out in self-inquiry. It should be effective to surrender them to inner silence, like with samyama, to see if a knowing beyond the mind's rationalizing emerges, even if only as brief glimpses. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2013 : 3:47:51 PM
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Omsat, that was The Question that tricked me into mind gravity after a long period of no questions and a peaceful mind. It truly bakes the noodles!  It's the both-thing paradox that is to remain a mystery, I'd say. I have noticed that none of the masters I've encountered/read is ever mentioning anything about this subject. It is the great mystery and I guess - if we found an answer, the show would lose some of it's glamour! 
Oh, just came to me - Mooji has a great video where he says something like "Bah, all that 'we are all one and we're all enlightened and there's noone there to be enlightened' - let's not play games. If you want meat you go to a butcher. If you want truth from a realized being you come to someone like me."
I like the non-bullsh*t style.  |
Edited by - emc on Aug 26 2013 3:53:57 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2013 : 8:40:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Omsat
What is this individual awareness that knows all is One?
When my "awareness" is stuck in identification with the sense of being "individual," my relationship with pure bliss consciousness will be rather distant or thin. There may be moments of transcendence, and while these are a great inspiration, they are far and few between.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2013 : 8:48:39 PM
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When awareness is no longer stuck in identification with being an "individual," individuality is no longer a barrier: it is transformed into a channel of radiant divine love.
How to we make progress to getting there?
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2013 : 8:57:22 PM
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Thank you AumNaturel for sharing this story from Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj.
quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
surrender them to inner silence
Yes..
Emc, thanks for sharing your personal story with this question and sharing the words of Mooji; I had not heard them before.
The questions arose here after hearing the words "Without any doubt, you are the Supreme Being" in one of Mooji's Satsangs videos.
"This spell is going to turn around. It has to do it.
Without any doubt, you are the Supreme Being, Who has painted a self-portrait as this form and this name." (Mooji)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzSOBMnuzx8)
quote:
Originally posted by emc
I have noticed that none of the masters I've encountered/read is ever mentioning anything about this subject. It is the great mystery..
The words jiva-atma (individual soul) and param-atma (Supersoul) come in mind here.. Of course this mind fabrication seems to imply duality, hence the mystery of the enquiry remains as you noted. :)
My inner voice says: surrender to not knowing.. for now.. :)
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2013 : 9:15:05 PM
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I think it is a mystery created by words that does not exist otherwise.
If realization includes loss of identification as an individual, then there is no individual who realizes.
That doesn't mean your point of consciousness ceases to exist.
It means your point of consciousness has no encumbrances (such as a name), and as such can't be pinned down by words anymore.
The failure of words isn't really a mystery- they have never been real anyway. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2013 : 9:44:36 PM
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I think that the Lankavatara Sutra describes the individual "ceasing or not" very well in the following words...
The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.
Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.
But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2013 : 9:54:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Oh, just came to me - Mooji has a great video where he says something like "Bah, all that 'we are all one and we're all enlightened and there's noone there to be enlightened' - let's not play games. If you want meat you go to a butcher. If you want truth from a realized being you come to someone like me."
LOL. No comment.
Well, maybe one comment, and that is: the illusion of attainment...
From Lesson 329 (Pitfalls of the Mind):
http://www.aypsite.org/329.html
The Illusion of Attainment or of Having Arrived
Enlightenment, the direct realization of who we are, is unassuming and does not proclaim itself, except by compassionate assistance offered for the benefit of everyone. Conversely, where there is the assumption of attainment or of having arrived, actions can be distorted accordingly, leading to a rigid teaching, proselytizing, sectarianism, and a shift in focus from spiritual practices to the one who has supposedly arrived [emphasis added by Bodhi Tree]. It is a common pitfall of the mind that may be found in the teacher, the student, or both.
When consciousness is identified with the mind, there will be a great need to proclaim victory over the forces of ignorance. This breeds more ignorance, of course. There can be no enlightenment proclaimed on the level of the mind. The functioning of the mind can only be seen as a symptom of the illumination which comes from within, or the lack of it. We may conclude that an inner flow is occurring or not, but we can never proclaim with accuracy that we have arrived, for that is beyond the province of the mind.
By definition, both the cause and the destination of true self-inquiry are beyond the mind, in the abiding inner witness, which never assumes or proclaims anything. It just is.
When there is some proclaiming going on, it is wise to ask, "Who is proclaiming?" and then let go in stillness.
***
Beware of those proclaiming to be a "realized being". Enlightenment is relative description, not a final arrival.  |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2013 : 06:06:52 AM
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Bodhi_tree, I don't think that was the point in the quote. It was not to proclaim himself he said it, it was to make the distinction that consciousness has realized itself in certain beings and not in others. There IS individualization in realization even though concsciousness is One. And we are drawn to those who have realized. What are you doing reading Yogani's texts otherwise? You could be reading something from Harlekin instead? He pointed to the obvious: Truth is transmitting from realized beings to a greater degree than others. We know it, we feel it, we are attracted to it.
And please be observant: It is not a direct quote, it's only from my memory. I'll see if Life wants me to find the actual video... |
Edited by - emc on Aug 27 2013 07:54:11 AM |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2013 : 06:40:09 AM
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Thank you also bewell, jeff, Bodhi Tree, Etherfish for contributing to the post..
I enjoyed reading..
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2013 : 11:54:58 AM
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Ahhhh...so consciousness has realized itself in certain beings and not in others. Such lovely abstraction. I didn't realize consciousness was selective in who She realizes Herself within. Seems to me that even the most seemingly un-enlightened beings still have shreds of consciousness peering out from their little souls. (I recommend Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself").
"I CELEBRATE myself, and sing myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you."
But, as you said, we are individually attracted to certain teachers, and I wouldn't want to deny anyone the liberty and pleasure of sharing the nuggets of their favorite teacher(s). No. Never. To each his own. I like some of Mooji's stuff. I just like Yogani more because he places the emphasis on practices and techniques rather than self-inquiry algorithms and abstract states of mind.
No bashing here! Just pointing out what seems to be the illusion of attainment in certain teachers. It's a helpful concept to be able to identify in real-life situations. Nothing absolute or punitive--just a light-hearted observation! I'm neither wrong nor right--just sharing my individual, non-realized, un-enlightened perspective.
Love your posts, emc.  |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2013 : 2:35:06 PM
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quote:
:Originally posted by Omsat
Who is it that "becomes enlightened"?
If all is One, why does one human being know this by experience and another is looking for it?
What is behind that human being that knows/realizes?
Wow, a lot of wonderful replies have been made in this thread! So much wisdom shown. I am deeply honored to add my 2,000 cents worth. Please forgive my enthusiastic verbosity, in advance.
And what a brilliant and most profound set of queries you've raised, Omsat. I'll second the notion, that the paradoxical thing about the enigma is this... when one contemplates such heady ideas, one must simultaneously be firmly fixed within the parameters of a definitive reference-point of selfhood or some modicum of selfishness, to even have this conceptual dynamic functioning cohesively before one's subjective mindset (so as to be able to even ask such pivotal philosophical questions).
Yet, the Ego-self is an assumption we all make based on our transient, external experiences and is a mesmerism of sorts. Is ego the very surface of Self and the eternal Oversoul or Atma, itself the very depths? Can the surface know the depths and vice-verca, simultaneously? Is "enlightenment" then, the joining or conscious uniting of these poles? All really excellent ideas to deeply ponder and contemplate upon.
On one proverbial hand, we have the obvious rational answer, that the I-thought experiencing such deep inquiry, is the very same ego actively questioning. That being who raises the query itself, is dreaming of being an entity earnestly seeking spiritual truth... or eventually, one having fully realized said truth.
So too, in-dwelling witness or what this particular expression of Ego-self (me, myself and I) prefers to name, "Omniself", is equally residing within a quantifiable parameter of orientation, though far subtler and wholly united with the indivisibility of the Oneness. Between these two polarities, we have the entirely of the drama enacted by the Godhead, creating this juxtaposition and entwined balance of the finite & infinite self, Jivatman & Paramatman. Which are not really dichotomous, IMO, despite their alternate views of reality and the magnitude of understanding betwixt the variance of these mirrored poles. A singularity within the complex multiplicity, as it were.
As naturally follows, even the Non-self, Anatman or what my present identification with self (mego the ego) has a penchant for labeling, "Zero-self"... still maintains it's somewhat quasi-contradictory status, as being somewhat of a hint of presence and an affirmed, manifestation or aspect of existential being. The sheer irony. This is experienced as an idea or thought-form, by the subjectivity of the one who experiences this state (however slim and filmy the subtle membrane of definitive perceptual dynamic exists). This is perhaps but the shadow of that which is free of any ideological schematics, subjective-objective paradigmatic spectrum of specificity in quantification? Born by the attention of the witness observing it's own perception and struggles ceaselessly to reach beyond the appearances, so it opens and blooms, to find the unifying principle.
On the other hand, impermanence and relativity are also veils of the Divine manifestation. It's all God's Lila... and we are each of us Nataraja dancing ourselves into discernible form and substantial existence. Again, who is dreaming of being Nataraja? Who is the self and who then, is God? Therefore and reflectively, who is not the self and who is not God? And if all is truly Omniscient, there is only Godself and just who knows this? God alone, or is the witness God incarnate, as the individual? Irrevocably symbiotic, interconnected and unified with one another, as a blueprints of one another. 
But then who is dreaming all of this up? I honestly don't know. God? I can't take full responsibility... and I have a sneaking suspicion that I do not even exist! That it may just be that I am God dreaming of being me, therefore, I am just an illusion and do not really exist outside of the parameters of the dreamscape. Not at least in terms of being apart from the totality of the Supreme Godhead, as an indivisible soul encountering the reality I enthusiastically challenge as being Maya and born of impermanence.
And while each paradigmatic orientation in the state of self, are only recognized when just enough self remains to affirm it as an idea or reality... ultimately (if there can be an ultimate) we either merge completely into the insubstantial God-void or we return for orbit the paradigm of humanity and teach, heal, sing praises to, write inspired poetry about or to pen profound theological doctrines and effulgent Sutras.
quote:
When an "enlightened" being says: "You are the Supreme Being", which part that is uniquely connected to this enlightened being is speaking?
What is this individual awareness that knows all is One?
Kudos for your succinct wisdom! And who are you to perceive such wisdom and who am I to respond to such obvious wisdom? God relating to Godself, looking into itself endlessly? Hehehe... Lol
And if viewed wholly impartially, as if that is even possible, all degrees of self are of a fleeting aspect of impermanence, as each new breakthrough in self-realization supersedes the previous level and/or degree of spiritual understanding.
There are numerous wise Sages, those who "become enlightened" and inspire the rest of us to do so. Master souls who effectively realize what they are in quintessence, that which is everything else and are truly beyond the mirage of birth and death. At least ideally this occurs, however rare. Such masters do emphatically speak with authority about these pivotal issues, as if it was the whole purpose for becoming enlightened in the first place! The Gospel, the Dharma, the Revelation of the Way.
This surely occurs by the I-thought, upon returning to a definable reference point, as the expression of either Ego-self or Omniself. So, even Lord Krishna maintains definitive manifestation, while not loosing awareness of being the unbound expanse of the Godhead. Furthermore, he knows directly that he himself, is the all-in-all of existence and everything occurs within himself.
Avatars even experience some sliver of ego by manifesting to reveal Truth. I am guessing, as I have not yet awakened to such a Divine state, that in such a spiritual plane of being, whereby no limitation can break the unity and direct knowledge of Godself. Or so the I-thought believes, as it observes itself, curiously observing itself. But all things change and the attributives, tributaries and mighty rivers return to the immensity of the vast expanse of the sea.
In other words, I feel that any finite membrane of self... no matter which level or degree of crystallization it is, has to itself believe what it perceives as being real or in turn, denounce it as utterly unreal... to even have a Path or teach a clearly defined Dharma. Even the great Sakyamuni had to accept that the illusion of human suffering was worth engaging in vanquishing and that mortal ignorance was just real enough, to elicit great compassion towards and effect a healing cure, for said ailments.
Perhaps this is why Sri Papaji used to say, "It never happened"? For without any membrane or strata of duality, the doer and the doing are essentially the same phenomenon. The essence of Brahman/God/Void/Tao remains wholly undivided and forevermore Absolute.
This is certainly not a treatise on Nihilism, BTW, it is the inevitability we each encounter when we fully embrace the impermanence of individuality, as jhanis. We are this way whenever we assert our energy to rise into a more expanded and universal/transcendental understanding of our perception of existence itself.
Or we can just as equally and validly, approach all of this unfathomable mystery with sheer devotion. To fall so in love with our most beloved Ishta, that we dissolve all vestiges of ourselves in the Sea of Bliss, the seamless union of Holy Deity and devotee.
Regardless of pathways, there is an eventual cessation of the I-thought's separation from the object of it's attention. A unification ensues, which unfetters the self from the self. The infinite silence which remains the core fulcrum of one's "enlightened" view and perceptual focus, is the same. When the mind is stilled, what is left to know? And again, who's mind is stilled? Who devotionally merges with whom? Is this not the nature of love itself, freely loving for love's own sake? 
So, it would seem that in the of simplest terms, only God exists... period! And I believe that this is exactly what the I-thought is, when stripped of any concrete subjectivity, when it becomes wholly still and serenely empty. Nirvana is tasted immediately before self annihilation in the God-void or Brahman. An endlessly spinning circle of force, coming and going of it's own spontaneous nature. A spiraling cosmic show performed by God for God's own entertainment? I wonder. No one can say... for words exist in the realm of polarity and purposeful meaning.
Admittedly, some things are beyond our attempts at containment or our efforts to compress into frozen ideas. They are not exactly wholly translatable into any human language or conceptual format, eh? It all becomes a game of circular logic at some point or another... and we are left speechless and of a silenced mental state. In such quietude there exists such immense euphoria, that I am repeatedly amazed and somewhat overwhelmed by the power and effulgence of Samadhi/Satori.
quote:
All questions aim at asking the same.. Just many ways of asking so the question may be clear..
I have often thought, that when Brahman endlessly manifests into existence as Divine Being or Ishvara, duality instantly blooms into the universes, appearing before the subjectivity of the witnesses, who are perceiving being the selves present to notice the phenomena, existent all around and inside of the perceivers, even the Divine Self is included in such a state of mind. So again, who is the self behind all the myriad selves seeking themselves? I personally believe that God is the core self... and this Self/Atman is void of definition, therefore it is Anatman.
One of my biggest queries is this... how have we as individuated conscious-awareness forgotten that there is no difference between self and God? Or are we just now approaching this point, blossoming anew to gradually remember we are the Supreme Being, all along, the evolutionary growth cycle only even took place within the duality of the time-space-continuum?
When I clearly quiet my focused attention from the I-thought... there is a primordial sound current heard ringing, oscillating, rumbling and a drone-like tone... coupled with a blinding light washing everything into an insubstantial, amorphous luminosity. Again, who sees and hears these aspects of the Sacred? Even beyond these manifestations, I question just who experiences the Insubstantial Void? It must be a form of self if it is understood, subjectively. So, we end up where we started. We are that very point of the Bindu, the Divine expression exploding into being, itself.
So who am I? I am no-thing, I am God. I am you and you are me, as well. Thus, we are One! In such singularity, we are the Zero-point, the entering and returning within the portal of the Bindu. Which is like saying, "I am not me, I am the Sacred reality behind the appearances of this and that". Yet, how do we know anything if we don't really exist? Is it essentially a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma... or what? In silence we reflect That. Ain't life grand?
Seemingly, all dreams, all sequentially flowing patterns, are partial truths and partial illusions... but had by whom? Who we really are... is the ever-changing panorama of our mortal imprisonment, our immortal freedom, the path taken, the pathless path not taken, the eternal journey, the destination-less destination.
All of this miraculous dynamism is taking place right here & now, in this very present moment, appearing for the unknown and forming as an aspect of that which is knowable directly and intuitively, as Sacred knowledge... and then disappearing back into the emptiness from whence it emerged. A magnificent singularity blossoms multidimensionally, revolving within the diversity of it's own Divine expressions. In the final analysis, who knows this? Is it like gazing into the Omniversal mirror, long enough to realize that the reflection is observing the observation of the observer? This returns us to the question, who is observing, who receives knowledge? 
I have come to believe that it is Godself, who is both the knowledge and the knower of the knowledge. Gnosis is looking at itself! We are That. What better reason than to facilitate direct, conscious immersion within the Unified Field of Being, through the fruits of our devotional worship, through the sincerity of our surrender and our continuous practice of sadhana? Just sayin'...
Tat Tvam Asi
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Edited by - Govinda on Sep 04 2013 9:32:10 PM |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2013 : 11:50:35 PM
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(Former post has been simplified)
The manner in which the question is structured reveals the nature of the illusion. I had thought that when the question was reformatted, it would be easier to perceive this. The previous response went into quite a bit of detail reformatting the question in order to show the nature of the illusion. This was probably not helpful. It was a lengthy explanation and didn't much help to clarify anything. One needs to perceive this for oneself, in one's own way and in one's own time. Self realization is dropping the illusion or perceiving that the illusion is actually nonexistent. But the separate self, which might otherwise be taken as the answer to the question, is what the illusion is rooted in.
love
parvati
edited for brevity |
Edited by - parvati9 on Sep 07 2013 7:34:02 PM |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 09:55:12 AM
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| "Who is it that becomes enlightened?" doesn't seem a question at all. It's a meditation -- a tool to dissolve the illusion of attainment. It doesn't have an answer that can be found through thought or expressed in language. |
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Omsat
Belgium
267 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2013 : 06:26:08 AM
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Thank you for all wonderful contributions..
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Who is it that realizes?
