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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 29 2013 : 05:34:45 AM
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I see there is a lot in the forum about over sensitivity but I do wonder about under-sensitivity. I think I am too clunky generally whether for protection or just me, I am not sure. I feel very little change at all after doing the deep meditation practices for a couple of months. It is not that I am wanting to have lots of scenery. I am used to just plodding on. The problems is possibly just that - plodding. I can see it going on forever  Are there any things to do to overcome this? I should add that one of my favourite things is gardening but this may be grounding me too much! Can we be grounded too much? Can we get out of it? |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2013 : 07:24:07 AM
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Hi catrynn! I used to wonder the exact same thing two years ago, when I was just a couple of months along with the practices. I physically felt better. It felt as though a burden had started to lift, and it felt like my batteries were starting to recharge a bit. My husband noticed right away -- long before I noticed anything.
But scenery?! Come on! I figured I just wasn't wired that way. I thought that the component of the nervous system that makes you capable of mystical experiences was left out of my genetic blueprint.
Now I'm extremely grateful for my family, my home, my big veggie garden, my job, and all the responsibilities because they keep me grounded and focused.
Whether the scenery is pleasant or unpleasant, it always makes for a good story up here on the forums, which is why you see so much written about it. No one talks about the hum-drum everyday stuff because it's considered boring.  But it's what makes the meditation worthwhile. Little bitty things in your every-day existence start to change. Little annoyances cease to be a bother, and suddenly you can't exactly remember the last time you were really angered by your favorite pet peeve.
I've also been incredibly fortunate to be around other practitioners who have been meditating for decades, but who also say they have very little in the way of mystical or energetic experiences. They are so grounded in themselves that they keep others around them grounded. They are wise and kind and, in all ways, just wonderful people. If that turns out to be you, then I would consider myself to be very lucky to know you.
Love!
--Liz |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2013 : 07:55:44 AM
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Hi Catrynn,
Not sure if you have read this lesson: Lesson 366 – Suggestions for Under-Sensitive Meditators
In my experience (not saying this is true with you), the people who have complained to me about being under-sensitive have very strong ideas about what the outcome has to "look like" and miss out on/ignore the subtle (and some not so subtle like anger/irritation that happens due to over doing practices) things that are happening to them.
I would suggest, practice and go out and live your life and see the subtle changes that are going on, how you react, how you handle things, how you feel. The big woo-hoos energetic experiences are not needed to measure progress in this path (been there, done that and can assure you the changes in living life more balanced and from stillness is way more powerful than any energetic experience we can have). The energetic experiences will come and believe me they will come (especially when we stop looking for them )... and when they do enjoy them, but don't go looking for them or get attached to them.
Wish you all the best my dear!
Much Love!
PS: Gardening is the best... it does not have to be grounding, it can be very uplifting... it helps bring balance. I have found it to be the best "being present" practice. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2013 : 08:53:46 AM
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Hi Catrynn,
Such great and sweet advice from Liz and Shanti!
I considered myself to be under-sensitive, and reading about the experiences of others here was frustrating. For a long time, I didn't frequent the forums at all, preferring to read Yogani's lessons in books. While the general advice was "less is more", I took the "more is more" approach with rigorous practices and austerities. Sure, life was better, there were subtle changes, etc, but hardly any "fireworks". And even now, my fireworks quotient is lower compared to many.
The thing about sensitivity is that it changes, as discussed here:http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....IC_ID=12055. With continued practices and openings, I'd say I'm now bordering on being overly sensitive. The "more is more" is no longer applicable, and most importantly, not needed.
It is true that subtle changes and overall functioning in life are far more important - who cares if I have a 1,000 volts of raw energy but cannot function in relationships? That might work for those living and practicing in seclusion (until they decide to come out of it!), but for most of us that live in societies, the difference in daily life is the barometer. Do you judge, compare, stress and worry less (about yourself and others)? Is there growing peace and contentment?
Taking up practices neither means that all our problems will disappear nor that we will walk around being holy or with a halo. As Liz said so beautifully, one fine day we notice that something that had us totally unraveled in the past does not even cause the batting of an eyelid - that is true progress.
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2013 : 10:07:15 AM
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What beautiful posts, Liz, Shanti and Kami. I am very grateful for them and very glad to have you all around the forum! Thank you! And yes I did read about sensitivity in your post Kami. I think it was in response to over-sensitivity that I actually wondered about under sensitivity.
I do appreciate that we can go happily on our spiritual path without fireworks and dynamic scenery. I can't say I am keeping my eyes on getting anything like that. Nor am I looking for anything specific which is 'right' and have fixed ideas about it. I think initially that I wondered whether I was 'doing it right' and perhaps I had missed something if nothing appeared to be happening. But reading the lesson 366 I realized that it was ok. I just don't like the idea of it being 'clunky' forever and ever.
Perhaps that is why I asked the question. I wanted to know if there were techniques or whatever to make a person of 'clunky sensitivity' less so. Are there things that lighten us, that help to lead us more easily into higher vibrations? I trust it is not my imagination, but I got the impression that we are all vibrations and everything around us is. These vibrations are from heavy to increasingly light and some vibrations we wouldn't yet be able to cope with or experience as our human vibrations are too dense. The spiritual vibrations are the lighter ones. Possibly the lightest. This is, I suspect, the point of purification and opening which is mentioned so often by yogani with regard to the ayp practises. They lighten up our dense vibrations caused by all the dense things we have done in our lives. I suppose too that the main techniques here are deep meditation and spinal breathing paranyama.
I just wondered how we could cultivate less 'clunkiness' like eating a lighter diet without carbohydrates; like doing particular types of exercise - aerobic exercises perhaps; things which in a sense would be the opposite of grounding. We work in the garden to ground. What do we do to 'un-ground'?
I only wonder about this as I have a sensitive friend who always has to walk to get grounded as she could just 'fly away'. I realized that I had no clue really of what she was talking about nor did I have her sensitivity. I know life tends towards balance but at that point I rather wished I was lighter and more sensitive and not so ground-hogging like the Taurean that I am!
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Edited by - catrynn on Jun 30 2013 10:20:08 AM |
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SparklingDiamond
Australia
227 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2013 : 10:14:26 AM
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Hi Catrynn
Just to let you know I am a Taurean just like you. and not just a sun sign Taurean, but I have my ascendant sign also in Taurus, so that makes me doubly typical Taurean. :)
I experience OVER sensitivity from DM and SB. I love both immensely, and wish I had less of it, so I could continue with it, but not to be.
So now I practise the DM occasionally.
As far as lightening the heaviness, you could try reducing the meat in your diet, if you want to go that path, and drinking more water, and / or eating more fruit and vegetables in your diet. Even exercise, can help get rid of excess energy
Maria
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2013 : 10:37:39 AM
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| Thanks Maria! Good to know Taureans can be sensitive too! I realize that when you wrote that exercise was good for excess energy, my problem was the opposite - perhaps the lack of energy flowing in the first place. I take your point about meat. We don't have much red meat at all but I certainly eat plenty of vegetables and fruit. It's those other things snatched in a fit of hunger from shops, that probably do the damage! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2013 : 7:30:40 PM
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Hi Catrynn,
In my experience, there can never be too much grounding. It is not the opposite of spirituality. It balances out when there is too much, but doesn't take away from it. I think we were meant to be much more grounded than we are in modern times. We were put in contact with the earth all day, walking barefoot, then we insulated ourselves from it by wearing shoes, and building floors and sidewalks.
So my opinion is there is never too much grounding, and I believe it contributes to spirituality. There is only too little sometimes.
If you want to be more sensitive, try thinking about God (or your own highest ideal) as much as you can during the day. Just say their name whenever any concern comes to mind, and relax, knowing everything is OK.
Best of luck. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2013 : 8:57:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Hi Catrynn,
In my experience, there can never be too much grounding. It is not the opposite of spirituality. It balances out when there is too much, but doesn't take away from it. I think we were meant to be much more grounded than we are in modern times. We were put in contact with the earth all day, walking barefoot, then we insulated ourselves from it by wearing shoes, and building floors and sidewalks.
So my opinion is there is never too much grounding, and I believe it contributes to spirituality. There is only too little sometimes.
If you want to be more sensitive, try thinking about God (or your own highest ideal) as much as you can during the day. Just say their name whenever any concern comes to mind, and relax, knowing everything is OK.
Best of luck.
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2013 : 12:29:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by catrynn
Thanks Maria! Good to know Taureans can be sensitive too! I realize that when you wrote that exercise was good for excess energy, my problem was the opposite - perhaps the lack of energy flowing in the first place. I take your point about meat. We don't have much red meat at all but I certainly eat plenty of vegetables and fruit. It's those other things snatched in a fit of hunger from shops, that probably do the damage!
Hi Catrynn,
At certain points in our sadhana, purification processes may help. Fasting (if drawn to it) and shatkarmas can be of value at various times when feeling stuck. The lesson for shatkarmas is here: http://www.aypsite.org/312.html
Additionally, a sattvic diet may help. Sattvic is not merely vegetarian, but eliminates rajasic and tamasic foods that increase mind activity or cause dulling of the ability to meditate, respectively. For a few years I was following this diet in a rigid fashion - no meat, eggs, onions, garlic, green peppers, stimulants (caffeine, etc), leftovers, mushrooms, over-ripe fruit, etc. I would notice that eating onions/garlic would cause meditations to be mind-y. But all of that is useful for a limited time. I do now cook with onions/garlic/peppers and it seems to make no difference (still avoid meat, eggs, dairy and leftovers). Fasting has also been a regular austerity at different points in my life; it is very cleansing, and seems to help diminish the "heaviness" that you describe.
However, it is important to not get too obsessed with diets and such; it becomes another identification that will need letting go of eventually.. Ultimately, practices themselves will shift the sensitivity.
Agree with Ether.. It is not possible to overdo grounding..
Much love.
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2013 : 05:00:27 AM
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Kami, Etherfish and Shanti, it is wonderful to know you are here in this forum with such wise advice. Thank you so much for listening and understanding and helping. I am glad there can't be too much grounding although physical denseness may be something else so the advice on diet and shatkarmas was very welcome. I didn't know shatkarmas existed but they seem to attract me now I can see we can get hooked on diets, myself having been hooked on slimming diets but I can also see that like everything else they are not to be clutched tight. Opening and releasing. I loved the advice too to think about God and say God's name during the day. It is the Presence of God in the Christian tradition I think, a practice that I aspire to.
Thank you all again |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2013 : 11:31:23 AM
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I was reading on a different thread a comment that I think applies here. Anxiety creates it's own roadblocks.
I have been thinking lately that I am enlightend. I just don't know it. That I am filled with bliss. I just don't feel it.
I looked into myself and I had no doubt that I trusted me to do the right thing.
Because I believe in me. I trust me. I just needed to let go and let me get to work.
Kami said it. The secret is in letting go. Letting go of I Am, letting go of the desire for the scenery. Being in the practice and letting go.
That has helped me. |
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2013 : 05:15:13 AM
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Thank you Jonesboy. That is very perceptive. I did wonder in the first post whether I was clunky for protection - anxiety indeed. It may well be so. I just have one question. Who is the 'I' you are referring to? If I am enlightened and don't know is and filled with bliss and don't feel it, is this because the Witness isn't there yet? Isn't the Witness the real Me? So if I am doing Deep Meditation then the Witness will be on its way won't it? It's only if we try to think these things without the Witness present, it seems not to be so successful according to Yogani. But I might not have got that right!
Anyone know anything about Liberation Unleashed where people walk through the Gateless Gate and find true reality which in non dual and the collapse of Self? It seems similar to the rise of the Witness and Self Inquiry which then leads to the rise of non-duality anyway. From what Yogani said it is better to deal with this when the Witness has arisen rather than rush into Liberation Unleashed without it. But I don't know really. Anyone any comments?
Your comments also remind me of being in the present moment. If we are totally present then the thoughts we had about ourselves a moment ago don't count and what we may be dreaming of hasn't come yet so we are only in our present with full attention. With the Witness there too it may well be the death of anxiety and mind games we play about ourselves. |
Edited by - catrynn on Jul 05 2013 05:21:20 AM |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2013 : 07:38:18 AM
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Hi Catrynn,
Very beautiful comments..
Is the Witness the real me? Hmmm... Any response that comes from the mind to the question "Who am I?" is not it. The felt/understood response that comes from beyond the mind cannot be described in any number of words. Any intellectual understanding of the Self is also limited. However, cultivation of the witness is the essential step for relational inquiry, including the Liberation Unleashed style of it. Many of us here have tried it.. If you search for the topic, you will find many threads like this one: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....on,unleashed
The experience of joy and bliss come from quieting of the mind, both conscious and subconscious. DM works on several layers simultaneously, in addition to cultivating the witness. And as you say, it aids in being present.
Love. |
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2013 : 11:57:09 AM
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Thanks Kami. I did look at your link.
I am curious about Liberation Unleashed to know what effect it has. What effect has it had on you? They seemed to indicate on the site that there is no great spiritual enlightenment. I just wondered what enlightenment there was and if there was a better result if the witness was present. But the witness might not have anything to do with this. I just don't know and wonder if you did |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2013 : 6:16:43 PM
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Hi Catrynn!
I went through Liberation Unleashed a few months ago. If you like, you can read my topic.
I wrote a little bit about the experience here and here when I was fresh out of it.
I would give LU mixed reviews. My guide was excellent. I feel incredibly fortunate that he picked up my topic and started the guiding process, and I have no reservations about recommending him.
But I've also seen a tendency by people who have undergone the process to make "gating" into a life story event. The life story is just so much cooler now that there's "no self." I've seen "no self" become a position that has to be constantly defended, and I've seen "no self" become an excuse to avoid dealing uncomfortable feelings or life situations. Of course, some people avoid all those traps, and the direct pointing method of inquiry provides a real boost to their practice.
If you decide to undergo the process, just remember to let all that go too and get on with living when it's done. Life will show you that there's always more.
Have you added Samyama to your practice yet? I found the technique of touching a question and letting it go in stillness to be indispensable to inquiry.
Love!
P.S. Some free advice (and worth every penny ). Forget enlightenment. What do you want more than anything else? Inquire and decide for yourself what that is. Then pursue it and let it inspire your practice.
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Edited by - whippoorwill on Jul 05 2013 6:56:24 PM |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2013 : 8:44:13 PM
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Agree with Liz whole-heartedly!!
The only thing that will inspire us to keep up practices over the long-term is our deepest desire.. If enlightenment isn't our deepest desire, so be it.. It doesn't have to be.. (More free advice.)
Regarding LU, it was an ok process for me.. The guide was wonderful, and after 3 emails, she said I didn't need it.. So, not much to report..
The thing to remember and always keep in perspective is this: seeing the no-self (emphasized in LU and many other traditions) is all fine and good. But it is still dualistic, and hence simply the beginning of the path to true non-duality, i.e., seeing that there is no essential separation between self and non-self; it is all One. Seeing/knowing the no-self is a required step to Oneness, but only a step. And it can become another thing that one "knows" or "possesses", or more commonly, just another memory as one becomes pulled into ego-identification again. Then it becomes another mind story of "when I saw the no-self..." It is all a trap..
Like Liz, I'd recommend samyama, the most beautiful practice of letting go..
Much love. |
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BudhdheePrakash
Canada
4 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2013 : 9:24:08 PM
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Hello Catryn,
I felt under sensitive for long and despite of three years of practice, I had ZERO sensation in Mooladhar and a lot in the Sahasra chakra.
Vegetarian diet and Kumbhaka helps a lot in expediting cleansing - if fireworks can be construed as symptoms of cleansing.
quote:
Originally posted by catrynn
Thanks Kami. I did look at your link. ]
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2013 : 10:06:56 PM
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Catrynn, I share your inquiry about under-sensitivity, and how to relate to it in practical terms. The reaction here has been as Kami said earlier, "more is more." It has become a self-reinforcing addiction to keep going overtime, sometimes a bit above the 'aggressive' routine suggestions.
The excuse so far has been about building momentum, establishing a firm habit, getting a sample of my optimum purification tolerance, and then easing back to something realistic day-to-day. The routine has been fairly intermediate, because I've been reluctant to add too much too quickly to not miss out on the basics as the building blocks.
The reality: I'm pondering solo retreat schedules, what AYP and non-AYP practices can be squeezed in, what else I can give up to make more time during the day.
This is all well, enjoyable, and fulfilling, except that it's unsustainable in contemporary society, and cutting back now sounds like a death sentence and abandonment of the collective efforts. I don't know what blend of bhakti, ego clinging, and degree of self-indoctrination this represents, but the facts of the situation are undeniable, and the inner response has always been do your best, make the most of it, and appreciate every little bit given.
So regarding under-sensitivity, again I fall silent, because I don't have the experience of sadhana sensitivity as a concept to begin with. What has been helpful along the way is to challenge doubt (and its inherent flaw, assured idleness) with good practice, notice self-monitoring when it happens and return to the practice, trade anticipation for bhakti and surrender, and appreciate the nearly-invisible openings for their role propagating endless other such changes in turn.
I've done grounding practices in the past, and again, I don't have a clear concept for it from experience. But I do know what it's like to be disconnected from oneself, as when someone constantly tries to draw your attention outward with diversions that scatter that presence; that too becomes easier to see through. If that remotely relates to grounding, then the opening brings the tools for greater stability, but this last part is just my speculation. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2013 : 10:24:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
The guide was wonderful, and after 3 emails, she said I didn't need it.. So, not much to report..
Why do I have the feeling that I'd get the same reply, even though I can't say with certainty I have a grasp of no-self. If it's a matter of convincing, by such an approach, I would begin to question the authenticity of the person doing the guiding.
Thanks Whippoorwill and Kami for the reports. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2013 : 06:47:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
quote:
Originally posted by kami
The guide was wonderful, and after 3 emails, she said I didn't need it.. So, not much to report..
Why do I have the feeling that I'd get the same reply, even though I can't say with certainty I have a grasp of no-self. If it's a matter of convincing, by such an approach, I would begin to question the authenticity of the person doing the guiding.
Thanks Whippoorwill and Kami for the reports.
Exactly! While a guide might help one to look at the veils obscuring perception of the greater reality, it is not possible for an online guide to know if the student actually experiences it... Especially if the student has a good theoretical understanding of it..
That shift is subtle and subjective; more credence for Yogani's signature, "The guru is in you."
Much love to you Aum. |
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2013 : 07:21:38 AM
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Hi Everyone! Thank you all for giving such interesting and helpful posts. I was a bit mystified by this 'more is more' that a number of you alluded to. Is it that on the forum more is made of 'big things happening' and less of the ordinary quiet things? That those who move on with hardly any fireworks are not really in the 'big' picture? Well from the amount of posts I have had on this top perhaps it is being opened up a bit now
Thank you too for your comments on Liberation Unleashed Liz and Kami. It was a good friend of mine who mentioned it so I got interested in it. It sounds as though the on line guide may be great but how do we know what is happening over the Internet to the person doing it? It also seems as though you are saying that it is not the big experience that it is made out to be where so you have the old life before it and then everything new after it. If there were no other techniques involved it may be like that to the person doing it, but with the balance of AYP there are other things in the picture as well. And of course, the guru is within us...
I just get the feeling that it is one technique which can be done under the AYP Self Enquiry and might arise anyway on the AYP path. I think of the Eight Limbs of Yoga and how balanced the whole picture becomes when all the limbs are worked with. As everything is inter- related then doing one powerful technique on its own may not be so successful as there is nothing to balance it. This is only my opinion as I am a newbie to this path 
I really liked Liz's advice to go for what I really want. Well my problem is that age is catching up with me. I am 67 and when I read how long everything takes I have to accept that I may not get there in this lifetime And enlightenment is where I would like to get to. So I have to let go of my self and ageism as well and our idea of time. If we are all One, then it doesn't matter much I haven't quite got to Samyama yet and I was not experiencing silence but then I did on Friday evening so perhaps that is beginning now. So I shall continue with the AYP practices without getting too sidetracked and hope that I will be around to reap the benefits when they come!
to you all |
Edited by - catrynn on Jul 07 2013 07:36:48 AM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2013 : 10:27:25 AM
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Hi catrynn,
it should be doable, even with your age there is still enough time :)
Happy practice,
and peace :) |
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2013 : 1:46:52 PM
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Catrynn,
I think you got it and congrats on your meditation. it only gets better from here whether you add additional practices or not. Enjoy. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2013 : 5:57:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by catrynn
I was a bit mystified by this 'more is more' that a number of you alluded to. Is it that on the forum more is made of 'big things happening' and less of the ordinary quiet things? That those who move on with hardly any fireworks are not really in the 'big' picture?
The way I understood Kami's view of 'more is more' is just taking the opposite view of the real principle of "less is more" found in lesson 45 and throughout the writings. I also meant it that way, the often-erroneous idea that adding more always results in greater gains or benefits, or if a bit of something is good, then a whole lot of it 'must' be better. Wanted to clarify that so no one gets the wrong idea. |
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catrynn
Ireland
68 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2013 : 08:57:37 AM
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Thanks for that AumNaturel. But I am still confused. I looked at the lesson 45 but i think I must be very slow today - we are having a heatwave and we are not used to it If I think of Deep Meditation which we only practice for 20 mins twice a day, when other systems encourage far more than this, then I would understand that with AYP deep meditation 'less is more'. But I don't see where 'more is more' unless it is the belief that if I add a bit of this practice and a bit of that one and pinch something from somewhere else and put it all into my AYP practices, thinking all this 'more' will benefit me. I hope this is more correct now. I was rather wrong in my interpretation before - sorry about that!
I do see the problem with the temptation of 'more is more'. There is a temptation to rush through the various practices adding on one after another thinking a few weeks will do in between when in fact a few months or years are recommended before adding anything. It is sometimes difficult to realize how powerful these practices are when they seem so short and almost insignificant and other systems are recommending far longer times of practicing their techniques. We are saved by self-pacing and 'the guru is within you' - as long as we listen |
Edited by - catrynn on Jul 11 2013 08:59:35 AM |
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What can we do about plodding under-sensitivity?
