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Kahlia
161 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 08:16:46 AM
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I need help with forgiveness. How does one forgive one who is vindictive & purposefully hurtful? Spiteful? How does one deal with it & turn it around to see the truth or reality of it? We all have these things inside of us! To look past the pain of others spiteful actions & grow from it, with forgiveness? To forgive our own harmful actions. I got so much anger, its eating me up!!! I find myself wanting to lash back but the real me just simply wants to let go & move on. It's like a tug of war, this holding on & letting go..it's driving me crazy!!!
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Edited by - AYPforum on Jan 21 2013 08:38:19 AM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 08:38:19 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 10:22:40 AM
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Hi Kahlia,
The first step is "acceptance". Then, later one begins to "like yourself". After you learn to like yourself, you learn to forgive.
Best wishes, Jeff |
Edited by - jeff on Jan 21 2013 3:16:43 PM |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 11:57:44 AM
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Hi Kahlia! Oh gosh, this is a tough one for me... I'll give it my best shot, and hopefully it will make some sense.
I think of forgiveness as dissolving the hurt. Dissolve the anger, the pain, the frustration. You're absolutely right about those emotions "eating you up." I think they do your body/mind far more harm than the original act, whatever it was. Pain, anger, and fear can literally make your body sick. Been there!
When you dissolve the pain of the story, you also dissolve the victim/perp relationship. When there's no longer any pain, there's no longer any victim. And the "perp" doesn't exist without a victim. You start to view the person more clearly when the victim/perp relationship is gone.
I used Samyama to dissolve the pain. I added "please take these burdens" and "please forgive" to the end of the 9 sutras until I felt better. I did it originally to relieve the pain of someone dumping all his problems on me, and it ended up dissolving other pain as well. Bonus! 
Another part is to see the emotions as being caused by a story. Whatever was done isn't being done to you right now at this moment except when you re-live it inside your mind. Realize it is a story and let it go. Meditation helps dissolve the story.
One of the more difficult personal stories I've had to deal with in recent years was being felt up at work. I complained about it, and the administration decided to prosecute. There was a whole public trial, and there were all these horrible things printed about me in the local paper by supporters of the perp. I was accused of lying and sleeping with the boss, among other things. Nothing like having your name dragged through the mud in a newspaper and hearing your story being discussed in the grocery line!   Talk about punishing the victim! Anyway, they found the guy guilty and suspended him for 30 days without pay. I wasn't the first to feel his groping (not by a long shot). This wasn't even the first trial he's had for similar behavior! But I think I was the last.
Anyway, it was a long time before I came to the "acceptance" point. I learned things from that experience that I couldn't have learned any other way and, on the whole, I am grateful for it. But I had to dissolve the pain, and dissolve the victim/perp relationship before I came to real acceptance of the story. Meditation and samyama are the keys.
Now for the part I'm having difficulty with... I still think he's a jacka$$! I don't like him, so I wonder if the forgiveness is complete. Surely I don't have to like him... Yuck!
And a tip... If at all possible, limit your exposure to this person while you're working through these things.
Lots of love to you!!
--Liz
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 1:27:36 PM
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Hi
This is good, I myself learn the most when anger arises.For me,it means there's something within myself that's not totally accepting Allah's will.
My approach is continouos conscious decision to "forgive and forget" everytime a scenario rises in my thoughts.
All the best
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 2:12:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kahlia
I need help with forgiveness. How does one forgive one who is vindictive & purposefully hurtful? Spiteful? How does one deal with it & turn it around to see the truth or reality of it? We all have these things inside of us! To look past the pain of others spiteful actions & grow from it, with forgiveness? To forgive our own harmful actions. I got so much anger, its eating me up!!! I find myself wanting to lash back but the real me just simply wants to let go & move on. It's like a tug of war, this holding on & letting go..it's driving me crazy!!!
Hi Kahlia,
Sorry you are going through this.. You do bring up one of the biggest blocks to further progress, IMO.
It has taken much suffering here to see that forgiveness seems so daunting, yet is so simple when perspective shifts. Are you familiar with The Work by Byron Katie? It is a book I have lying around, and recently randomly opened to a page describing the last step, the Turnaround.
While reading that page, I saw that in pretty much any situation where I have thought that the other person was unkind or unjust to me, I have been more unkind or unjust with myself. For every one time that the other person said or did something unkind, I magnified it a thousand times by replaying it over and over again. Who has been more unkind then? Them or myself? More shockingly, I see all the times I have been unkind, to not just them but to so many others. Maybe not in that same specific way, but in a myriad other ways.. And this all happened in one instant, washing away all resentments, literally filling the cold dark spaces held within with light. In this soft, loving self-acceptance, I'm finding it hard to bring up past issues with anyone, most importantly, with myself.
There is much to be said about samyama. For months now, I have been doing twice-daily samyama on forgiveness. Not for anything in particular, but because it just came up a while ago. Perhaps the Universe decided I was "ripe", and led me to opening that specific page in the book? Most likely. With increasing alignment with whatever is happening, there is warmth, love, empathy and such compassion for follies - mine and everyone else's. Is it possible to fault a scorpion for stinging, doing what it does? We are all imperfect, yet there is such beauty in this. We are all doing the best we can, in ways that are in our nature (no matter how unacceptable it may seem). It takes only a moment of seeing that there is no other. There never was. All wounds are healed in seeing that there is quite literally no one to forgive.
If you have the book, I recommend reading it, and applying The Work to your specific situation. Of course, continued cultivation of inner silence and samyama supercharge any inquiry of this sort!
My very best to you. 
Much love,
kami |
Edited by - kami on Jan 21 2013 2:16:26 PM |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 2:54:35 PM
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It amazes me how much the body holds on to things! Even now, after understanding and even appreciating what happened, there's resistance in the body after telling the story. I can feel it! Energy in the solar plexus. Tension in the knees and hips. Makes me wonder just how much is buried there in the body causing discomfort. I guess more work is needed here.  |
Edited by - whippoorwill on Jan 21 2013 2:55:03 PM |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 4:40:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Kahlia,
The first step is "acceptance". Then, later one begins to "like yourself". After you learn to like yourself, you learn to forgive.
Best wishes, Jeff
Hi Jeff! Clearly still working on acceptance here. "Liking" is still a ways off. What is forgiveness?
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 5:36:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by whippoorwill
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Kahlia,
The first step is "acceptance". Then, later one begins to "like yourself". After you learn to like yourself, you learn to forgive.
Best wishes, Jeff
Hi Jeff! Clearly still working on acceptance here. "Liking" is still a ways off. What is forgiveness?
Hi Whippoorwill,
Forgiveness is the "letting go" of the story. It is all "internal" and is really not related to the other person.
As you pointed out above, issues/stories/fears are stored (energy) in the body/mind. So you could also describe the process as: face the issue, accept the issue, forgive/let go the issue. Or in energy terms... notice the obstruction, get a feel for the obstruction, release the obstruction.
But, letting go is very hard to do until you like yourself. The "ego" doesn't like it and gets weaker if you release some of it's energy structures, so it wants you on the defensive. "You" are kind of behind the ego energy structures. The spiritual process is basically just clearing away the "crap".
Or, in the simplest terms... Forgive everyone and everything (including yourself) and you will be "enlightened".
Best, Jeff |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 5:36:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by whippoorwill
What is forgiveness?
Hi Liz,
((((HUGS))))
You are so incredibly brave
Sorry to butt in here. I like the definition of forgiveness from "A Course in Miracles" the best. It is the ability to see the other person in this moment, without any of the stuff carried over from the past moment(s) (paraphrasing from ACIM).
Love and hugs to you.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 6:20:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
quote:
Originally posted by whippoorwill
What is forgiveness?
Hi Liz,
((((HUGS))))
You are so incredibly brave
Sorry to butt in here. I like the definition of forgiveness from "A Course in Miracles" the best. It is the ability to see the other person in this moment, without any of the stuff carried over from the past moment(s) (paraphrasing from ACIM).
Love and hugs to you.
Hi Kami,
I think there is some danger in your definition of forgiveness. Just because one is not seeing any of "the stuff" in this moment, does not necessarily mean that it has actually been forgiven/released/let go. Many make the mistake of trying to "repress" or block out things. As one progresses spiritually, this becomes very easy to do.
Best wishes, Jeff |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 7:08:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
There is much to be said about samyama. For months now, I have been doing twice-daily samyama on forgiveness. Not for anything in particular, but because it just came up a while ago. Perhaps the Universe decided I was "ripe", and led me to opening that specific page in the book? Most likely. With increasing alignment with whatever is happening, there is warmth, love, empathy and such compassion for follies - mine and everyone else's. Is it possible to fault a scorpion for stinging, doing what it does? We are all imperfect, yet there is such beauty in this. We are all doing the best we can, in ways that are in our nature (no matter how unacceptable it may seem). It takes only a moment of seeing that there is no other. There never was. All wounds are healed in seeing that there is quite literally no one to forgive.
Yes. Yes. And wait...one more yes. 
P.S. We all got a little scorpion in us, don't we?  |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 7:32:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
I think there is some danger in your definition of forgiveness. Just because one is not seeing any of "the stuff" in this moment, does not necessarily mean that it has actually been forgiven/released/let go. Many make the mistake of trying to "repress" or block out things. As one progresses spiritually, this becomes very easy to do.
Best wishes, Jeff
Thank you Actually, it is not my definition, as stated above.
There is a huge difference between "acceptance" and "repression", as you rightly point out. True acceptance comes *only* from a place of love, and letting go from that place. Repression/resignation/blocking out is not acceptance, but denial.
By the way, forgiving, in my experience, doesn't mean that those memories don't come up. They do. But the emotional energy attached to those memories is no longer there. They are just inert thoughts passing by. There is no identification with them. And since the emotional energy is gone, the obsessive replaying lessens and pretty quickly those memories die out.
Repression, a defense mechanism, is a willful blocking out of painful memories (conscious or subconscious), and any time those surface, all the dark energy behind them is very much alive and thriving.
Thanks and love,
kami |
Edited by - kami on Jan 21 2013 8:17:13 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 9:36:05 PM
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Remember that there is also forgiveness in action. Accepting your action is just as important.
Sometimes people find excuses to stay in abusive relationships. No one says you have to put up with them or like them. Just as a dog shakes water from its fur its is fine to do that and move on.
Examining why we might choose to stay in a poor quality relationship and noticing the excuses and thoughts around the stories to justify that position.
Anger is entirely natural, but hate isn't. Anger is quick to burn and should subside. Hate is a long smouldering fire which is entirely internal.
Separating these things is an interesting puzzle. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2013 : 10:48:54 PM
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Solid, Karl. 
That kind of discernment has been of great benefit to me as I navigate the muddy waters of tightly-wound family relationships, in particular.
Yes, your insight about hate rings very true. Hatred is the deliberate, willful choice to harness anger in an oppositional, absolutist stance against a perceived enemy. Anger is just an innocent by-product of the purification and resolution of a karmic knot. The water of love washes over anger quickly when we let go of any attempt to conceal it and keep it burning for selfish purposes. |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jan 21 2013 10:49:50 PM |
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2013 : 09:13:49 AM
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When in a relationship, I generally do not "forgive" until someone asks for forgiveness. In fact, I do not forgive nothing, it is just energy dynamics as I see it. When someone wrongs me, I have a reaction, and act from it (crash something in a wall, do not speak to the person, or do something else that energy requires...). After they change their attitude, then everything is good. Without me forgiving, energy just gets soothed, and everything is fixed.
When out of relationship, I generally see people as a bundle of different energies, which are always competing for supremacy, so there is no one to be mad at at all? Generally people that are not aware of the human nature are not the people that I would like to share my being with.
For people that I am in relationship with, I tend to demand that they be aware of the energetic/thought patterns that govern them. Or at least to try 24/7. Obviously I do not have that many relationships  !
Main point: I would never try to manipulate my energetic instincts. Every emotion has its cause, you just have to understand its history, and try to integrate it. Otherwise you could damage your being, me thinks. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2013 : 10:19:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Solid, Karl.
The water of love washes over anger quickly when we let go of any attempt to conceal it and keep it burning for selfish purposes.
That is true forgiveness, everything else is just words. When you feel that out pouring you know that it can only be right. Its as though the water of a dam has burst and cleared away the debris. I live for those moments, pure, unconditional love without any mind attachment. May we all have more of them. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2013 : 7:44:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
That is true forgiveness, everything else is just words. When you feel that out pouring you know that it can only be right. Its as though the water of a dam has burst and cleared away the debris. I live for those moments, pure, unconditional love without any mind attachment. May we all have more of them.
Amen. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2013 : 8:12:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Its as though the water of a dam has burst and cleared away the debris.
Funny, these are the exact words I used with someone recently to describe how it feels here.
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Edited by - kami on Jan 22 2013 8:14:27 PM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2013 : 3:42:20 PM
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Namaste Kahlia,
I find that withholding forgiveness is painful. The pain that arises when someone "wrongs me" is momentary, but by withholding forgiveness I hold onto that pain and prolong it. Forgiving the other person is a way to let go of that pain. It may not erase the pain that the other person inflicted on you, but it helps it to heal faster.
Forgiveness becomes much easier when you recognize that it benefits yourself more than it benefits the other person, and that withholding it hurts you more than it hurts the other.
I'm quick to forgive simply because it feels better than not forgiving. It's not a matter of morality or justice for me. The motivation is purely selfish.
It's a bit like if someone tosses you a hot coal and you catch it before you recognize what it is. There will be pain either way. Holding it will increase and prolong the pain. Dropping it will allow healing to occur naturally.
Hope this helps. |
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Kahlia
161 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2013 : 04:37:25 AM
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I am filled with anger these days. It's hard. I have started to focus daily meditation solely on forgiveness. I have been using the word as a mantra & focusing in heart opening. Anger is not good. Thanking everyone for their insightful & thought provoking responses.
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Kahlia
161 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2013 : 04:56:44 AM
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| Truly. Really grateful! |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2013 : 04:00:55 AM
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Anger is only frustration with being unable to find who you really are. Try accepting that anger as frustration and a beautiful kind of weakness. Accept you are helpless and weak and need a Sheperd to guide you. This is forgiving yourself for being angry because you know no better.
So, rather than fight the anger or try and remove it by substituting forgiveness, live with the anger and it will dissipate as will frustration and fear. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2013 : 08:50:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kahlia
I am filled with anger these days. It's hard. I have started to focus daily meditation solely on forgiveness. I have been using the word as a mantra & focusing in heart opening. Anger is not good. Thanking everyone for their insightful & thought provoking responses.
Hi Kahlia,
Anger is a powerful emotion and it does not really work very well to try to replace it with another feeling/emotion. But, the cool thing about anger is that it is the easiest emotion to notice. Anger can be helpful in finding the "witness" state.
The next time you are angry, try to notice it at the time. It may be annoying, but it may be helpful to have someone even point it out to you. If you can (or after the anger is down), try to figure out what caused the anger. Try to trace it in yourself. Look at it as deeply as you can. Once you can "see" the anger while it is happening, it gets much easier.
Best, Jeff |
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Mykal K
Germany
267 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2013 : 1:52:54 PM
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Hi Kahlia,
maybe you do not need help to forgive.
Maybe you just need time and space to be angry. Why the heck shouldn't you be angry? It is your emotion after all. Even the buddha gets angry. It is natural.
My suspicion is that you do not allow yourself to be angry enough, and therefore do not realize your strength. Maybe you are trying to cut your anger too soon. Give your self some time in the day to be angry. Really angry. And support that part of yourself. Only then, after you have stood by that part of the self should you try to use reason, but not with force. I think you will do ok. You should not believe that you are evil or something for being angry.
My apologies if I misunderstood the problem, this is internet after all, and I do not know you...
Best wishes |
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sivasambho
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - Feb 08 2013 : 09:59:54 AM
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Hi Kahlia,
Hope you are able to sustain this. I went through a similar ugly situation. Many people advised me to face head strong and get it done with. However what I did was slowly got myself out of the situation where the other vindictive person had established his territory. The fact is these individuals are going through tremendous suffering in their personal lives and thus they cannot accomodate a relatively peaceful person nor do they understand where you coming from. Most of the times, we have our own ego issues to deal with as well which just worsens the situation.
Most people might not like this answer but in my experience there are two options here.
1. get out of the problem situation or territory and focus on your own healing with yoga, meditation, selfless service etc
2. get actively involved in the situation and take anything as it comes. It should not matter if anything is staked or lost.
Both these attitudes are great. However it might be good to keep in mind, that these are lessons for our own growth. After all all we are is a "sankalpa". Everyday morning we wake up from sleep and affirm ourselves my name is kahlia and these are all my people, domains etc. In such a reality, what we realize is as yogis, we are commited long term people aka visioneers. Best thing to do is breathe, try to be with any experience in awareness as much as possible, and let any pain come and purify us.
I had chosen option 1 before and now I am able to do option 2 without fear. Hope you are able to get relief.. good luck Kahlia!
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Forgiveness
