|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 27 2006 : 05:01:51 AM
|
Thanks for all your comments. But I am honest... I was thrown into this land of Gods, spirits, magicians, light and dark forces, love and fear, in February. Before that I had a peaceful life with perfect understanding of what life was.  My mind is quick though, it picks up knowledge and knows where to look for it, although it doesn't always know what to do with it.
|
 |
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2006 : 08:06:33 AM
|
Thanks emc and Kathy!
Just wondering, Kathy:
quote:
I just had to realize that the only thing causing a problem in my life was my own fear and I had to let the fear go….. It wasn't easy. But it was the only thing that worked.
How did you do it?
From my own experience with fear, the hardest part is facing it. To actually feel it fully. It is such a temptation to pull oneself together against it....either physically or psycologically. It is so easy to start telling stories about it...in order to mentally process it, instead of experiencially go through it. So I am curious.....how did you let it go? Did you feel it without the story? Did you allow the fear, but not the image? If so, in this allowance, did the fear burn itself out? After all, without the story, what could it feed on?
Thanks again ....
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2006 : 12:04:57 PM
|
Katrine,
it was one of the most difficult things I’ve ever done. I did feel the fear fully in this case. I didn’t have ANY problem feeling it fully! The darkness was there, in my house upstairs, hovering and close. It enveloped every aspect of me. It felt like a conscious being, formless.
And I didn’t let it go all at once. It took a while, and that dark thing did visit a few more time. I had tried to marshal whatever strength I had against it, using prayer, the zikr, whatever. But nothing had worked.
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘did you feel it without the story?’ What story? And, there was no image, only energy and dark presence.
I haven’t tried to analyze this before.
As difficult as it was and this kind of internal change and reaction is hard....It was as if I stopped worrying about me and my children in this regard, stopped worrying about the consequences of this energy and whatever action it might take.
I had to realize that we were, we simply were, and we would continue regardless of any event precipitated by the presence of this thing. Our continuation was a given, the laws of the universe would be followed, based upon whatever destiny our karma led us to and because of this, there was nothing to be done. It was enough just to live and continue, without worrying about external forces, their intent or actions. I could be calm again and realized that everything was as it should be. 
I’m glad you asked that question. I’ve been worrying about external forces of another nature [business  ] and am in a calmer place now.
light and love,
Kathy
|
|
|
|
Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2006 : 12:28:27 PM
|
quote:
Kathy said: I had to realize that we were, we simply were, and we would continue regardless of any event precipitated by the presence of this thing. Our continuation was a given, the laws of the universe would be followed, based upon whatever destiny our karma led us to and because of this, there was nothing to be done. It was enough just to live and continue, without worrying about external forces, their intent or actions. I could be calm again and realized that everything was as it should be
Lovely.. surrender to what is..
There is nothing more beautiful than that..
Thank you Kathy for sharing this.
|
Edited by - Shanti on Jun 27 2006 12:35:47 PM |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2006 : 12:51:20 PM
|
| that was really inspiring, Kathy! thanks. |
|
|
|
Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2006 : 7:53:22 PM
|
quote:
How did you do it?
From my own experience with fear, the hardest part is facing it. To actually feel it fully. It is such a temptation to pull oneself together against it....either physically or psycologically. It is so easy to start telling stories about it...in order to mentally process it, instead of experiencially go through it. So I am curious.....how did you let it go? Did you feel it without the story? Did you allow the fear, but not the image? If so, in this allowance, did the fear burn itself out? After all, without the story, what could it feed on?
Hi Katrine,
To me fear is my greatest and truest friend. It shows me exactly what I want to avoid in a loud and clear way. It's a reaction you do not have to dig very deep to find. The more I resist or the further I run away, the louder it gets. My fear loves me with such unwavering loyalty it won't let me get away without eventually hearing its message.
The quickest way to overcome your fear is to acknowledge it and hear its message. Jump in and find out exactly what is so terrible, it's never as bad as we think it is. Just because you embrace your fear doesn't mean the thing you fear is going to happen, just that you think it might.
A |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2006 : 10:07:41 PM
|
I've never heard of anyone experiencing fear like I do, so maybe I'm weird. For me if I feel a great fear coming I have to face it (feel the full effect of it) and decide with conviction within three seconds to not let it overcome me.
Then sometimes I can see it as a big wheel made of all the words that describe the fear, and I can mentally throw that wheel away from me. Without the describing words, it doesn't exist anymore. The circular shape seems to cause the fear to be autonomous. It holds itself together by connecting its different aspects to each other like a bicycle wheel and creates the illusion of being real.
|
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2006 : 04:51:09 AM
|
Thanks everyone
Great perspectives on fear!
It is an issue that has surfaced for me during the past year or so. I am much more afraid than I thought. It is good that it has surfaced - now I can at least see it. Most of it has to do with fear of physical harm (I was hit a lot as a child) - but ultimately I guess it all boils down to fear of death.
My way of dealing with it, is also to allow it fully.
Kathy wrote:
quote:
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘did you feel it without the story?’ What story? And, there was no image, only energy and dark presence.
Any story, Kathy. "Energy and a dark presence" is also a story. Words to describe something.
quote:
It was as if I stopped worrying about me and my children in this regard, stopped worrying about the consequences of this energy and whatever action it might take.
Yes. I can relate. To me this is the opposite of fighting it. It is a relaxation; an acceptance. Instead of naming what I feel (even to call it fear) I get to know the energy by locating it in my body....to find where the physical seat of the fear is. When I find its location, I breath into it...it increases....and then it dies down as long as it is not fueled by a thought or an image.
Or - and this happens a lot lately; it transforms itself into a kind of "neutral" energy.....much like Kundalini "in the rising".
Andrew:
quote:
To me fear is my greatest and truest friend. It shows me exactly what I want to avoid in a loud and clear way.
Yes. So true. I have an issue with control. My fear often surfaces in the car....my husband likes speed  ....I do not. I can get so scared when he "races past" other cars to get ahead. (He is a good driver.....just much more daring than I).
So basically.....I have concluded that my fear is simply fear of death. Fear of pain and fear of death. I have these fears because I am blind as a bat to the beyond. The day I see how things really are, the fear will lose its grip on me. I trust that. In the meantime I face it; I learn from it and I try to not run when it comes my way.
Ether!
quote:
The circular shape seems to cause the fear to be autonomous. It holds itself together by connecting its different aspects to each other like a bicycle wheel and creates the illusion of being real.
How interesting.....it confirms what I find to be true....that chronic fear is a "package" - held together by concepts, feelings, images and past experiences. I guess you manage to be a witness when you encounter it - thus avoiding attachment to it. Very interesting...
quote:
Just because you embrace your fear doesn't mean the thing you fear is going to happen, just that you think it might.
Yes. Intelectually I can fully buy this. But experiencially....I think what I fear will happen.....when it comes to death. But - then again; I don't know squat about death. That's the whole thing - the "notknowing" is the fright. That is why I wait. I wait while understanding ticks in. And one day - when the level of understanding is clear enough - I am bound to see. There is no other option. Yes?
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2006 : 08:16:31 AM
|
I take each one of my fears and indulge myself fully in whatever invokes them. I was afraid of heights, so I dived off cliffs into the water and learned to sky dive. That's where I learned you have three seconds to stop the fear before it can immobilize you. I was afraid of blood and knives, so i learned surgical technology, etc.
When you do enough of that, then you see fears as opportunities. So I look forward to death, but I have a lot of other stuff to do first. |
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2006 : 09:11:31 AM
|
Ether
This has been my approach with stage fright.....you are right...it takes about three seconds before the fear destroys my ability to make music. (And when I was a child I used to get punished for playing a wrong note....I guess every other fear grew out of that).
If I feel it today - I simply shift my focus from my head to my belly. I breath in and out of the area around the navel - and at the same time feel the "umbilical chord" to the universe. At this point any fear simply makes me laugh....it is so ridiculous to ever think that I could be harmed in any way on a stage.
Basically....life is a stage too. So I guess the same principle rules here. Then again - I need the experience of knowing it to integrate it.
You know....as much as I fear death, I also look forward to it. It will mean going home. It will mean peace. However - I trust that the homecoming/peace can be made while in this body. That is why I am still here.
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2006 : 11:59:36 AM
|
emc said:
The relationship I am engaged in right now functions like that. My partner has many times been accused of being a man of Darkness, a sorcerer, using energy for his ego. But that is not true. When people start feeling awkward in his presence it is their own feelings and fears that are being awakened.
I'm coming in late to this thread. Agreement with Meg here. The way you are framing this whole thing sounds dodgey.
Let me put it this way; if there is a man of Darkness, a sorcerer, using his energy for his ego, the story he promotes is almost always exactly the very one you quote. This goes for dark or mixed 'gurus' too.
|
|
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2006 : 5:16:40 PM
|
Hm... I don't want to go in defense here, it is Renu's thread. But I have to say someting. You are right that this man I am seeing is not afraid of the darkness and therefore can both meet it without fear and handle it. Some would therefore label him as a sorcerer. However, he is not using his knowledge for egoistic purposes. He also has contact with the light and can handle energies of lots of different qualities. He choses to be aware of both. If it is true that
1) we all have BOTH light and dark aspects within ourselves, and
2) people in contact with the darkness may trigger the darkness within others
then people who only chose to be aware of "light" qualities and keep the dark aspects hidden from consciousness probably would be very frightened if anyone started triggering those dark aspects. Thus, the last sentence "if there is a man of Darkness, a sorcerer, using his energy for his ego, the story he promotes is almost always exactly the very one you quote. This goes for dark or mixed 'gurus' too." makes perfect sense. Yes, that IS the true story from people in contact with the darkness whether they use the energy for their ego or not. That's how it would be experienced from their side.
|
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2006 : 6:23:25 PM
|
The thread doesn't belong to Renu alone, by the way, it's for you too. You are right not to be defensive. I don't know this man. You do. So I am counselling caution according to what I hear -- no more. And what I hear is very limited. There could be problems of language involved.
2) people in contact with the darkness may trigger the darkness within others
A lot hinges on what 'darkness' means here. Perhaps the discussion is too vague to be productive. But let me say this much. According to the word 'darkness' as I use it anyway, I would not consider it a compliment to someone that they have a noteworthy tendency to 'trigger the darkness' in other people.
Even according to that meaning of 'darkness', this doesn't mean that this is a bad person or anything like that. It would sound to me then that this person just has certain relational flaws or limitations. What gives me pause is not so much to know that this person has limitations (who doesn't?) but the way the story comes forward as if these limitations are actually the limitations of other people instead; it's turned around to be a high compliment to him. And so, I just advise caution.
Please do not take this personally. It's a feeling I have, and I merely advise according to what I hear.
|
Edited by - david_obsidian on Jun 28 2006 10:48:48 PM |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2006 : 9:55:29 PM
|
Thanks Katrine
Katrine wrote:"And when I was a child I used to get punished for playing a wrong note....I guess every other fear grew out of that."
Ha ha me too. My dad was a music teacher. So I thought everyone was always judging my mistakes, 24 hours a day. Now I know the opposite is true. They will ignore mistakes if there's a lot of good stuff in between.
"You know....as much as I fear death, I also look forward to it. It will mean going home. It will mean peace. However - I trust that the homecoming/peace can be made while in this body. That is why I am still here."
I see death differently. I too believe the homecoming/peace is to be made in this body. I have no idea what death will bring, but I look forward to it as an adventure.
|
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2006 : 04:24:10 AM
|
Thank you, Ether
quote:
I see death differently. I too believe the homecoming/peace is to be made in this body. I have no idea what death will bring, but I look forward to it as an adventure.
Yes.....
This brings up the issue of Joy for me. I am too serious for my own good. I tend to forget that if I don't see - the first thing I miss out on is Joy.
And yes....LIFE is an adventure. And life is all there is.
There has been a lot of talk on darkness here in this thread. As if darkness really exist. Deep down inside me I can't buy that. Darkness is an "absence" of light..........not an existence in itself.
I may be naïve.....
....but this implies that death is an illusion. There never was such a thing as death. Yeah......I don't have to be afraid. Everything is already ok. Much like you said in your thread, Kathy....this realization "cured" your fear of "darkness".
So....with this in mind I can welcome the light....instead of being on a constant look-out for "death"; "darkness".
Thanks everyone....
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2006 : 1:19:52 PM
|
| It's interesting that death is so often associated with darkness. I understand it as moving into the light. |
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2006 : 05:29:44 AM
|
Yes, Meg....
The thing is....I lack the experience of knowing that death is moving into the light. Many people have told me that it is so. But....I need to taste the food to know it.
Not only that - but between meals - I forget the taste.
So.....whenever I don't totally know something, I associate it with darkness. For me - to know is to see. And if I can't see, it is like being in the middle of an unlit room.
Then anything could happen.....
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2006 : 8:52:48 PM
|
If you have an out of body experience also it lessens the fear of death. You experience that you are whole without a body.
For me it sometimes happens if I sit without moving a muscle, eyes closed, in a somewhat cold room. Stop my thoughts, and concentrate on another place. I like to concentrate on the sky or clouds. |
|
|
|
Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2006 : 9:13:01 PM
|
quote:
Ether said:
For me it sometimes happens if I sit without moving a muscle, eyes closed, in a somewhat cold room. Stop my thoughts, and concentrate on another place. I like to concentrate on the sky or clouds.
Sounds interesting.. I have to try this.. |
|
|
|
Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2006 : 07:26:08 AM
|
Excerpts from The Luminous Dark Mother
By Leslie McIntyre
http://www.awakenedwoman.com/dark_mother.htm
We often refer to the negative experiences in our life as "dark". As a sweat-lodge facilitator for women, I have learned that the dark is not a fearful place. In a sweat lodge, it is so dark inside that one cannot see one's hand in front of one's face. What I have come to experience sitting in this dark womb space is the incredible light that emerges from the deep dark -- at times so bright, so luminous, that I couldn't tell that I was even sitting in the dark. I would like to offer that the dark is actually a nurturing place -- just like the dark earth surrounding the tender seed, encouraging it, in full darkness, to sprout. If the seed is exposed to the light too soon, it will die. If the seed is not rooted in the dark, damp, rich soil, it will die. The darkness is necessary for life to take root! In that context, I would like to reclaim the dark, and refer to our negative experiences as something else -- perhaps just "negative" -- and let the dark emerge for us as the Dark Mother who holds us together and shapes us, just as a potter shapes her clay. The dark place of growth, her womb, holds us and keeps us safe while providing us with nourishment.
------------------------------------------------------------------
In these desperate times, we need the healing power of the Dark Mother who is not afraid to cut through the egoic structures of dualistic thinking with ruthless compassion. Women especially need her image to help us shed the heavily imposed patriarchal layers of definition by a mind that does not really see us, and is only interested in controlling us and making us "behave." This healing power is a primal transformative force emerging from the depths of women's wisdom, which is, as we now know, genetically passed on to all of us. Men need this image in order to face their fear of the feminine they have learned to hate, and so, hate within themselves. With the Dark Mother by their side, men can allow themselves to go into their deep feelings and not be ashamed to bring forth those frozen tears that often turn to bullets or violent attack. They can once again reclaim their heritage of being the loving sons of the mother who has shared her womb and breast with them to give them life. No longer will they need to conquer and dominate. With the Dark Mother's embrace, all people will be able to once again live in her bountiful peace, beauty and celebration. Without her, we will perish.
With a deep and profound reverence for our ancestors, and to the foremothers that have literally given birth to all of us, I offer a prayer in closing:
In the spirit of peace, beauty, compassion, kindness and love, let her wisdom once again teach us the way out of our own mind-made prisons of distortion so that we may once again feel her exquisite embrace and gracefully move our feet in dance to the rhythm of her beating heart and come to know within the blessing of her ecstatic joy. BLESSED BE
(Probably a slightly feminest viewpoint  but nevertheless some good points I think)
---------------
And as the fella says:
Yea, though as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death -- I will fear no evil.
What does this mean?
|
Edited by - Sparkle on Jul 02 2006 07:31:32 AM |
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2006 : 10:46:02 AM
|
Louis,
Thank you.
This really touched my heart.
I can't speak right now.....but I'll come back later...when it's digested.
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2006 : 12:37:49 PM
|
Very relevant speech Louis. I'm surprised there are sweat lodge ceremonies in Ireland.
Negative things show us important things.
I love the darkness. |
|
|
|
Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2006 : 12:52:11 PM
|
Just to clarify Ether, it was'nt my speech, but excerpts from the article in the link.
BTW. Of course there are sweat lodge ceremonies in Ireland but before we started imitating the American Indians the Celts used stone built lodges, some of which are still there.
Cheers to a pint of the dark stuff (Guinness) |
|
|
|
Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2006 : 2:29:35 PM
|
Thanks Katrine
Look forward to result of digestion.
Louis |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2006 : 4:57:10 PM
|
quote:
Women especially need her image to help us shed the heavily imposed patriarchal layers of definition by a mind that does not really see us, and is only interested in controlling us and making us "behave." This healing power is a primal transformative force emerging from the depths of women's wisdom, which is, as we now know, genetically passed on to all of us. Men need this image in order to face their fear of the feminine they have learned to hate, and so, hate within themselves. With the Dark Mother by their side, men can allow themselves to go into their deep feelings and not be ashamed to bring forth those frozen tears that often turn to bullets or violent attack. They can once again reclaim their heritage of being the loving sons of the mother who has shared her womb and breast with them to give them life. No longer will they need to conquer and dominate. With the Dark Mother's embrace, all people will be able to once again live in her bountiful peace, beauty and celebration. Without her, we will perish.
I always have a lot of reservations about how wise and pure and healthy and well worked-out this kind of feminist spirituality stuff is.
I worry that it gives some women a sense that the problems of life are caused particularly by 'men'.
And the 'patriarchy'? What is that? Everything that they do not like since civilization began?
At its worst it also seems to be another instance of the very dubious phenomenon of an identity-group that blames all ills on the dominance of another identity-group.
|
Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 03 2006 12:22:56 AM |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
Victim of black magic
