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mukundaspupil
United Kingdom
25 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 25 2012 : 05:55:18 AM
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Hey everyone,
I think I've posted on a similar topic before but would appreciate your thoughts...
Basically I've always been interested in the spiritual path but I seem to be equally attracted to hedonistic pursuits. I'm finding this quite upsetting, as any time I seem to be making progress with AYP I seem to be drawn towards or create more drama in my life, which of course is the absolute opposite of the direction I want to be going in and I end up back at square one. Have any of you had a similar experience and overcome this? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2012 : 11:05:48 AM
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What do you want out of a spiritual path ? Are you treating it as another hedonistic goal ?
Except what you cannot change, do the practices without any thought of gain or loss. Don't beat yourself up if you don't do the practices, don't congratulate yourself for doing them. Be totally neutral. |
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mukundaspupil
United Kingdom
25 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2012 : 2:16:20 PM
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| Interesting questions, thanks Karl. Suppose I'm attracted to the idea of inner tranquility and greater wisdom/ understanding/acceptance of things. In this sense I suppose I'm chasing benefits, but isn't everyone who decides to follow a spiritual path? The most selfish thing to do, ironically, is to be selfless, I once read. I agree that it would help if my approach were more neutral, I do tend to get annoyed at myself for being tempted off track as I firmly believe that all desires (excluding the desire for enlightenment), lead to misery ultimately. But even though I know this, I find myself indulging in short term pleasures that seem to put me back to square one again. I get bored if I'm honest, even though I definitely feel better overall. Then I hit rock bottom again with the short term pleasures and the cycle starts all over again...maybe I'm a slow learner lol :-D just wondered if anyone else struggled with this and overcame it. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2012 : 3:03:01 PM
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| if by short term pleasures you mean sex, then here in ayp there is no abstinence...sex is not considered to be bad ...on the contrary we cultivate the sexual energy..this energy is an essential ingredient for the enlightenment equation |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2012 : 3:08:21 PM
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Hi muku,
Your experience is pretty common for many of us. As you do practices, they energy and subtle vibrations help release obstructions and issues. But as the issues come up, we need to deal with the emotional memories that come with them. People often have trouble dealing with them and repeat the cycle. It is helpful to try to "notice" the unconscious hedonistic "decision" when it is happening. Try to "watch" and maybe question at the time why you want to do it. The more you consciously notice things, the easier it becomes...
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2012 : 5:29:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mukundaspupil
Interesting questions, thanks Karl. Suppose I'm attracted to the idea of inner tranquility and greater wisdom/ understanding/acceptance of things. In this sense I suppose I'm chasing benefits, but isn't everyone who decides to follow a spiritual path? The most selfish thing to do, ironically, is to be selfless, I once read. I agree that it would help if my approach were more neutral, I do tend to get annoyed at myself for being tempted off track as I firmly believe that all desires (excluding the desire for enlightenment), lead to misery ultimately. But even though I know this, I find myself indulging in short term pleasures that seem to put me back to square one again. I get bored if I'm honest, even though I definitely feel better overall. Then I hit rock bottom again with the short term pleasures and the cycle starts all over again...maybe I'm a slow learner lol :-D just wondered if anyone else struggled with this and overcame it.
Chasing is Bakhti, its the fire of desire. Easy to let it pull you in other directions as well as practices.
Are you angry Mukundaspupil ? Sometimes the practices can have the effect of boosting the anger which is effectively over loading. Maybe try reducing the time to a maximum of a few minutes. Serial dieters do the same thing.
As it is you are creating a loop in which you do the practices for a while, get annoyed by the lack of progress and go off to do whatever it is you do in order to give yourself permission to beat yourself up again. You big Masochist you
Often this is seated in past anger with situations that remains unresolved. |
Edited by - karl on Oct 25 2012 5:30:18 PM |
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mukundaspupil
United Kingdom
25 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2012 : 7:11:32 PM
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Thanks for your responses all :-)
Maheswari: Thanks for your thoughts, I know AYP isn't anti sex and that sexual energy can be cultivated ( at least, "i know" in theory lol). Wasn't really focusing on just sex...meant drink and drugs too...any fun but transitory distraction. I don't know much about how you cultivate your sexual energy, I read in the AYP pranayama/ spinal breathing about raising it to your third eye and utilising that energy there, but I'm not advanced enough for that. Also in order to have sex in a spiritually constructive way, I imagine you'd have to be with a spiritually minded partner, I never meet anyone like that.
Jeff: Thanks for your input, makes me feel better to hear that others may have been through something similar. Thanks for the advice too, I will try and observe/ watch my thoughts more. Sometimes it just feels like an overwhelming urge to go out and have crazy fun and it sweeps me away. My inner witness (?) doesn't seem strong enough to talk me out of it...
Hey Karl: Thanks again, that's interesting, didn't know that and haven't considered it. Yes, maybe I'm angry at myself. But why does practice make this worse Karl? Can things not get resolved through practice? Lol good point on the masochism, it is really I suppose. I did start out doing the full 20 mins, then I included 10 spinal breathing...and the 10 mins rest. Now I usually do 10/15 min dp...and 5/10 mins rest. I have noticed feeling irritable after meditation and sometimes after a lengthier session, when i feel pleased with my progress, that will be the evening I'll decide to start some trouble for myself. It is a bit of a loop to be fair. lol But I want to meditate to be at peace with myself, I doubt I'll come anywhere close to enlightenment in this life time lol but I can't understand the irritable thing. So if I continue with the reduced time 5/10 mins will this help? Is there anything else I could do? |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2012 : 10:09:08 PM
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Hi there MP
Firstly, I'd say the biggest block on the spiritual path is expectation that practices will get us to a better place. And this is unavoidable. Every single one of us goes through this. The reason for this often is that we have fantasies about the state called enlightenment. Thus, once we take up practices, our minds become hyper-judgmental - "how can I, a spiritual aspirant behave like this?" or "So and so doesn't act this way.." or "Shouldn't I be less angry now that I'm meditating?" or "Shouldn't I have less desires by now?" or, more problematically, "I don't get angry anymore" or "I'm advanced and don't feel desires."
You can see that the first four are negative self-talk and the next two can be delusional; either way, arising out of self-judgment. And none of them are useful in any way.
So, what to do about it? Nothing really. If you are having irritability as a result of practices, cut down on your times and experiment to see what makes you feel better. Other than that, as Yogani says, do your practices and forget about it and go about your business, hedonistic pursuits and all. Over time, everything that is superfluous WILL drop away, absolutely no question about it. One cannot "get rid" of desires willfully or by believing they are gone. They *will* go as we expand and reside more and more in silence. If you are so inclined, do some enquiry, "looking" at issues as they come up. But, in my personal experience, even enquiry (in fact, particularly enquiry) cannot be forced. When one is ripe, it just happens.
Also, there is no such thing as being "done". Just when we think we have resolved something, we can be sure that life will show us residual stuff that needs more work. It is a continuous process of opening and expansion.
I'm coming to see that the drive to "get there" is so powerful for most of us that we forget to enjoy this beautiful process of awakening, which is also awareness experiencing itself and delighting in all of it - the joy, the bliss, the pain, the sudden leaps in understanding and the snail-like progress that makes us want to bang our heads. It's all good. It's all valid. It's all perfect.
Forget other lifetimes. You are already more awake today than you were yesterday. Isn't that something?!!
Love,
kami |
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lmaher22
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2012 : 12:14:52 AM
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Hi Muk. Perhaps you're confusing practicing with religion and morality. I don't think AYP is about resisting all temptations out there (especially when you're young)as it is reducing your desires and possibly losing some unhealthy ones. Instead of facing your desires head on and even white-knuckling it sometimes, I think you might be better served just taking all of AYP's suggestions and concentrating on the 'work' while forgetting the outcome. Just your desire to be a better person at this point is a remarkable feat at your age. You'll find a balance someday, at least I hope you do, and maybe AYP can help you through some the rougher patches in life?In any event continuing to practice and listening to people on this site will definitly make you a better wife, mom, worker- whatever path you chose.All the best...
Larry |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2012 : 05:02:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mukundaspupil
Thanks for your responses all :-)
Maheswari: Thanks for your thoughts, I know AYP isn't anti sex and that sexual energy can be cultivated ( at least, "i know" in theory lol). Wasn't really focusing on just sex...meant drink and drugs too...any fun but transitory distraction. I don't know much about how you cultivate your sexual energy, I read in the AYP pranayama/ spinal breathing about raising it to your third eye and utilising that energy there, but I'm not advanced enough for that. Also in order to have sex in a spiritually constructive way, I imagine you'd have to be with a spiritually minded partner, I never meet anyone like that.
Jeff: Thanks for your input, makes me feel better to hear that others may have been through something similar. Thanks for the advice too, I will try and observe/ watch my thoughts more. Sometimes it just feels like an overwhelming urge to go out and have crazy fun and it sweeps me away. My inner witness (?) doesn't seem strong enough to talk me out of it...
Hey Karl: Thanks again, that's interesting, didn't know that and haven't considered it. Yes, maybe I'm angry at myself. But why does practice make this worse Karl? Can things not get resolved through practice? Lol good point on the masochism, it is really I suppose. I did start out doing the full 20 mins, then I included 10 spinal breathing...and the 10 mins rest. Now I usually do 10/15 min dp...and 5/10 mins rest. I have noticed feeling irritable after meditation and sometimes after a lengthier session, when i feel pleased with my progress, that will be the evening I'll decide to start some trouble for myself. It is a bit of a loop to be fair. lol But I want to meditate to be at peace with myself, I doubt I'll come anywhere close to enlightenment in this life time lol but I can't understand the irritable thing. So if I continue with the reduced time 5/10 mins will this help? Is there anything else I could do?
Just keep reducing until its comfortable. Self pace and accept that it is OK to drop into drink and drugs, accept it is your nature.
The anger comes up because, without activity and thoughts going on, then, deep seated negative emotion is free to come up for resolution.
Negative emotions are the minds way of telling us that we need further learning and growth, however in our modern world, trying to deal with the sheer number and complexity of these negatives would render us incapable of doing anything else. Instead we park them until a time when we have the space available to handle them, which is usually when we have stopped activity ( one reason why people often find it difficult to sleep is these unresolved emotions presenting themselves) .
When we meditate we are creating a fantastic space for all these negative thoughts to be presented. Meditation does resolve them without conflict, but we have to learn to handle this powerful tool. If you abuse it, then it will flood you, hence overload issues.
Interestingly of course, your drug and drink activities are repressive. They hide the negative issues and make meditation all the more difficult because you are essentially going cold turkey in an emotional sense when you commence meditation. Effectively you get a bounce.
Just be gentle with yourself, be kind as you would to something that you treasure and want to protect. Give yourself permission to have value. You are a unique human being and can add so much to the world once you learn to moderate your practices and your drink and drugs. It will all come together, just take it slowly, you have many wounds and it takes time and rest to heal them. |
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mukundaspupil
United Kingdom
25 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2012 : 10:43:04 AM
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Thank you for your wonderful responses everyone :-)
Kami: Thank you so much for that, that made a lot of sense. I relate to everything you said about becoming hyper-judgemental, that's it, exactly! Your answer has given me a sense of peace and acceptance about the whole thing now, thanks for taking the time to write all that, means alot...will be re-reading it again, I'm sure :-) lots of love.
Larry: Thanks for that, yes the site is great. Great to talk with others like yourself who have more experience with DM. Yeah, it's more about destructive desires really, I wouldn't judge anyone in a religious type way for indulging in hedonistic pursuits, or myself.. but Kami described exactly what I do, it's judgement of another kind... the Shoulds and should nots. Thanks so much for your encouragement. :-)
Karl: Thank you again. Yeah, that's really interesting because I was starting to become a bit fearful of meditation, since I noticed this. Like you said in your earlier message it's a bit masochistic...and this last message of yours has helped me understand exactly what's going on here in terms of meditation opening everything up, providing the space for the negativity to rise to the fore...and drink etc doing the opposite and repressing everything. I suppose I underestimated the power of the DM, thinking of it more as peaceful relaxation that would gently lead me in a positive direction rather than something that is going to release repressed negativity. I skipped the rest after DM a few times and that was the worst! It is my nature to indulge and like Kami and everyone said, best to accept that..but I think you are right, maybe just go easy and be aware of just how powerful it is.
Thanks and love to all :-) |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2012 : 2:35:31 PM
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We all make the same mistake as, quite honestly, most of us have reservations about there being anything powerful in sitting still with eyes closed for a few minutes  we are always looking for the big things to happen all sparks, bliss, fireworks and zen states, only to discover its all rather boring. That makes us redouble our efforts to experience 'something ' so its common to go at it like hammer and tongs. Then we find resistance creeping in and it can hit very hard.
Experienced practitioners can only caution that less is more. Generally people just ignore it and discover it for themselves when it begins to kick their backsides  I read Yoganis book and thought I could do it all without all that self pacing rubbish and bashed on until I realised how wise that advice was. |
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mukundaspupil
United Kingdom
25 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2012 : 4:21:21 PM
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| Yeah, the self pacing part is tricky especially when you want results. Better to expect nothing really. I have decided not to drink OR meditate today lol I'm reading The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying instead...and will continue to think about what you, and everyone else, said. I will reintroduce meditation soon but I'm going to go easy, scrap the spinal breathing for now, reduce the time and be completely aware that it might rake stuff up. Big hugs |
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lmaher22
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2012 : 8:01:07 PM
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| I might also mention Muk that Hedonism usually implies devotion to sensual worship and excess pleasure seeking, in the extreme, maybe devil worship or something along those lines. It also implies no respect or empathy for others feelings believing that we are on the planet to continually satisfy all our carnal desires. In a non-violent way Hugh Hefner would be a great example in modern times, Roman orgies (with sex or without) of food, drink and fun in ancient. Having a little fun is way different than a total devotion to all base needs ad nausem. It just seems so easy in societal thought to swing from one side to another I.E. 'Once you're not a virgin you're a whore' and of course 'saint or sinner.'I suppose it all means that I, as much as you Muk, need to lighten up, be easier on ourselves and just keep swinging away. |
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mukundaspupil
United Kingdom
25 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2012 : 08:04:57 AM
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| lol thanks Imaher yeah, my hedonistic pursuits usually harm myself more than anyone really, not out to hurt anyone else...but of course that can happen when you are pleasure seeking, albeit unintentionally. I agree we should just be ourselves and have fun, it's just that I know that no good ever comes of it, it's this knowledge, combined with my continual desire for short term gratification that frustrates me sometimes. Samsara, you know, sometimes it's worse when you are aware of your flaws and the consequences of them... and remain stuck all the same. But what we resist persists and all that, and the over-riding message from everyone here is acceptance...so perhaps if I just accept that this is who I am, then it will cease to be an issue. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2012 : 09:07:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mukundaspupil
lol thanks Imaher yeah, my hedonistic pursuits usually harm myself more than anyone really, not out to hurt anyone else...but of course that can happen when you are pleasure seeking, albeit unintentionally. I agree we should just be ourselves and have fun, it's just that I know that no good ever comes of it, it's this knowledge, combined with my continual desire for short term gratification that frustrates me sometimes. Samsara, you know, sometimes it's worse when you are aware of your flaws and the consequences of them... and remain stuck all the same. But what we resist persists and all that, and the over-riding message from everyone here is acceptance...so perhaps if I just accept that this is who I am, then it will cease to be an issue.
Likely you will find it more and more boring as you continue to accept why you are doing it then the fun and excitement vanishes. Then you get more moderate. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2012 : 09:34:43 AM
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Hi MP
Sincerely hope the lot of us have not led you to think no practices
Just wanted to mention this - the seeking of pleasures is universal to all beings, as you know. And all pleasure-seeking is happiness-seeking and wholeness-seeking in disguise. Whether it is in drugs, cars, money, status or taking up spiritual practices, it is all for the sake of being in a better place, to experience happiness. There is a fine line where that seeking crosses over to obsession and addiction, because whatever it is that we indulged in gave us temporary cessation of pain and longing and at least for a while, we felt happy and content. The thing to reflect on is that none of these things result in that happiness or contentment of course. Joy and bliss are our essence, and what clouds them is our constant seeking for this or that. In temporary cessation of seeking, the joy that has always been there, shines through. Nothing new is created. When we tap into the inner silence with long-term DM, we learn to reside in that inherent nature and the seeking for external things gradually subsides.
Also, what you are calling hedonistic may be rooted in something else (pain, trauma, insecurity, etc).. Something to look into.. For example, what is the ulterior motive to drink or get high? Drugs and alcohol are just prototypes for these things - addictions/obsessions come in innumerable forms. I, for instance, have sought love and validation from others my entire life, and was never interested in material things or substances. It is so deep-rooted that only after years of spiritual practices was I able to see it.. Only after I had let everything else go.
Agree with Karl and Larry here. One thing I'd strongly recommend is to be kind with yourself, something that does not come easy. Learn to pay attention to self-talk.. And continue DM - trust the process, and you will flower into all it's beauty.
Much love,
kami |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2012 : 1:11:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mukundaspupil
just wondered if anyone else struggled with this and overcame it.
Struggled? Yes. Overcame it? Yes, but not in the conventional sense.
The body and mind seek pleasure, longevity, and the avoidance of pain and suffering. That is their nature. I don't believe these pursuits would ever stop, even in the highest saint.
The true struggle is not in the external behavior, but is within.
In the beginning of the spiritual path, I was very torn between hedonistic and spiritual pursuits. I would go through phases of hedonism and feel guilty about it, then bounce to a more spiritual focus and feel better about myself.
Daily deep meditation has loosened the inner struggle, even if the body and mind still bounce between extremes of hedonism and spirituality.
So the bodymind's external behavior still fluctuates between the two extremes, but there is an inner peace about it now. The extremes and phases are okay, they are just part of the show.
What's important is your inner relationship to these things, and deep meditation has definitely brought me to a place of greater peace with what is.
Hope this helps.
Namaste
cosmic |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2012 : 1:29:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mukundaspupil
...I read in the AYP pranayama/ spinal breathing about raising it to your third eye and utilising that energy there, but I'm not advanced enough for that. Also in order to have sex in a spiritually constructive way, I imagine you'd have to be with a spiritually minded partner, I never meet anyone like that.
You'll find most of the how-to in the Tantra Lessons here. ;-) They're for free. At least three things make AYP different IMO from more "neotantrist" interpretations (such as: www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=9486#81609 ) :
- more precision
- close ties to yoga
- emphasis on practice
The learning comes from intent, a relaxed attitude (sattva), and above all from practice - rather than from "a spiritually minded partner". Like meditation and Asana, it's not about the mat, scenery, or outer framework, it's about the inside. A close-enough intimate relationship in a "traditional western" couple is fine as long as both are genuinely curious about Tantra; it's much easier for most women to learn (some are almost born tantric) than for men. If she's experiencing an hour's ecstasy, or an awakening, or a chain of multiple "traditional" orgasms (no point to restrict or comment IMO, some Tantra schools would even say "no big deal" on the woman's part), or nothing at all, doesn't make the man's Tantrist practices less important - contrary. Instead of "only the best is good enough" ("best" or "spiritual" being mainly a hair-splitting game of intellect), I just remind myself to "grow it ever better": www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=11060#95217
Yoga and meditation are an excellent training in focus on doing rather than on kicks-chasing, and it's wise to remember the difference whenever you've a choice in life, be it a major or a tiny one (western researchers now say that you can never "consume" happiness - only "produce" it).
Like most learning, the practices take some time and patience, but are worth the fruits for those who persevere... ;-)
www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=9493#81742
My two cents
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Edited by - HathaTeacher on Oct 30 2012 1:32:38 PM |
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Hedonism
