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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 14 2012 : 11:46:21 AM
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Karl wrote:
"Try and define any others. It is always unease with the present position."
No, play is not like that at all. You said earlier:
"You never know if your play will be fruitful, but the reason you do it is that it holds the promise of being superior to your present position."
That's an adult analysis by someone who has forgotten their childhood! True play isn't planned to be fruitful, or undertaken to relieve some discomfort. From a kid's perspective, they are just doing what they feel like doing, in the moment, for no reason, because it's fun and they are happily expressing themselves. Work can be done in this manner too (not so much on a paid job though).
Kids on a playground don't play because the classroom makes them uncomfortable; it was natural for them before being restricted. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2012 : 12:22:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Karl wrote:
"Try and define any others. It is always unease with the present position."
No, play is not like that at all. You said earlier:
"You never know if your play will be fruitful, but the reason you do it is that it holds the promise of being superior to your present position."
That's an adult analysis by someone who has forgotten their childhood! True play isn't planned to be fruitful, or undertaken to relieve some discomfort. From a kid's perspective, they are just doing what they feel like doing, in the moment, for no reason, because it's fun and they are happily expressing themselves. Work can be done in this manner too (not so much on a paid job though).
Kids on a playground don't play because the classroom makes them uncomfortable; it was natural for them before being restricted.
I don't think I ever gave up my childhood  I'm quite flattered that you believe I am taking an adult position.
Everything appears spontaneous because we are always making a stream of decisions, even as children this is true. Remember that I said that circumstance is beyond control and is continually evolving based on an infinite number of things.
The child cannot stay in the classroom so has to go into the playground. Then the choices come up. Do I stay here at the door or join that game of football. Always calculations are going on to define which will produce the better outcome. Maybe parents have told you not to scuff your shoes or damage your uniform, maybe you don't like some of those playing the game. Of course this happens almost instantaneously and then the decisions continue.
Why do you move from the door to playing the game? Because you calculate that the latter position will fulfil more of your values and goals than the former. The former is then a position of unease ( I apologise for the word, I don't particularly like it because it sounds like fear/pain/active dislike. That isn't how I mean it, instead I'm saying that the position is no longer one at which you wish to stay ). It moves from the present to the past and is lost for all time, it is discarded and everything is related to the present once again.
I think it's a marvellous thing, a creative flow, creative action. Without it we would be rocks
Anyway, not to worry, I don't think it's vitally important in the great game, just makes an interesting discussion. |
Edited by - karl on Oct 14 2012 12:23:52 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2012 : 3:32:06 PM
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| I don't think most kids do that much calculation. A few do. I was like that. My dad impressed on me that I had to think before I did anything. It stifled spontanaety, creativity, and I couldn't do well at any sport because my brain couldn't keep up, whereas other kids used muscle memory and did fine. I wasn't accepted and couldn't establish a normal social position because i tried to run everything through my brain. It's not normal to process that much. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2012 : 6:11:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I don't think most kids do that much calculation. A few do. I was like that. My dad impressed on me that I had to think before I did anything. It stifled spontanaety, creativity, and I couldn't do well at any sport because my brain couldn't keep up, whereas other kids used muscle memory and did fine. I wasn't accepted and couldn't establish a normal social position because i tried to run everything through my brain. It's not normal to process that much.
You were self aware. The others did just as much calculation but they don't question it. Being self aware is an exceptional gift, but it also causes immense separation and makes it difficult to easily fit in. I know it only too well, I just developed a coping mechanism and acted the part. My book is titled square peg in a round hole which should suggest what it's about |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2012 : 6:47:22 PM
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I learned to act parts, but only so they would leave me alone and not single me out and question everything I did. I processed way too much through my brain and was hobbled by it. The others let it go and let muscle memory and instinct take over. Much better that way. It took me 50 years to unlearn and let go and enable muscle memory and instinct.
It's not a bad thing tho- I had much more incentive to learn to stop my thoughts, so I progressed spiritually, and am able to understand abnormal people better.
In all it just made me a unique kind of person.
But I am strongly biased against calculating to live life...your inner guru presents things, and you act; no calculation necessary. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2012 : 8:31:06 PM
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I like Karl's idea of being without friction. I've witnessed this more frequently in some of my heated interactions with family members about tender matters (drug use, my dying grandmother, etc.). The more I stick with daily meditation and the samyama practice/principle, the less friction I feel internally and externally. In other words, the conversations are less emotionally volatile and come out more easily, even if they are firm. But the firm words don't red line--as the very wise Cesar Milan, the dog whisperer, likes to say when referring to dogs who become aggressive and attack.
When inner silence is behind the verbal expressions/thoughts, then there seems to be this automatic regulation that will not allow friction (or at least not very much) to become dominant--i.e. red lining. Friction is often the result of too much force--too much effort of trying to change something. But I don't think friction is totally avoidable in the process of purification and opening. We just surrender to the flow, which broadens the channels, and there is less blockage to be cleared.
Just as a persistent river pummels a jagged rock until it becomes smooth and rounded, so does the flow of inner silence shape and transform our samskaras to accomplish higher purposes.
Pummel me, inner silence!!  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2012 : 03:50:39 AM
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I suppose the difference is that I choose when to take a bath.  maybe that's what Christian baptism is trying to symbolise ?
Once the fire is raging then you can just pop yourself in for a bit of cleansing, I don't choose to tough it out, just the application of short bursts of exposure to the flames seems more advantageous, it seems to give a better polish. I don't need to meditate to do that either ( although I still do because the Samyama isn't yet completely automatic and it reminds me of something I once believed ), the fire is always there. Always more polishing to do, the task is never finished and now I revel in that work, devotion, dedication it is a work of pure love. |
Edited by - karl on Oct 15 2012 04:07:03 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2012 : 03:52:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I learned to act parts, but only so they would leave me alone and not single me out and question everything I did. I processed way too much through my brain and was hobbled by it. The others let it go and let muscle memory and instinct take over. Much better that way. It took me 50 years to unlearn and let go and enable muscle memory and instinct.
It's not a bad thing tho- I had much more incentive to learn to stop my thoughts, so I progressed spiritually, and am able to understand abnormal people better.
In all it just made me a unique kind of person.
But I am strongly biased against calculating to live life...your inner guru presents things, and you act; no calculation necessary.
Thank you for sharing Etherfish do you need to stop your thoughts ? Did you mean it like that ? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2012 : 07:57:41 AM
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Many years ago I was into Castaneda's books. He said stop your thoughts and it stops the world. So I learned to do that, and it does.
Meditation is a better route tho, and easier. Plus he didn't teach bhakti, which is essential. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2012 : 11:30:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Many years ago I was into Castaneda's books. He said stop your thoughts and it stops the world. So I learned to do that, and it does.
Meditation is a better route tho, and easier. Plus he didn't teach bhakti, which is essential.
I can no more stop my thoughts than I can stop the Sun shining
Carlos Castaneda had me floating around on the ceiling when I was younger. Not something I wanted to repeat. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2012 : 7:46:39 PM
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It took years to learn to stop my thoughts.
The best technique I found is being aware of your senses.
If you try to be fully aware of everything in your vision (non-judgmentally, so without words), then try to add on awareness of all sounds, or any other sense etc, it doesn't take long to have so much input that there is no room for thoughts. I found it is very rare to be aware of all five senses at once.
It did me a lot of good. Of course it helps that I knew you should never believe ALL of what anyone says. You always make up your own mind completely independently. |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2012 : 8:43:19 PM
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| I guess I'll have to read Castaneda. Thought stops for me when I stop breathing. It just happens that way, and I can't explain why. Of course, I can't stop breathing for very long. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2012 : 9:31:12 PM
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How do you know it's not very long if you're not thinking? Ha ha just kidding.
Castaneda is very dark sorcery stuff that crosses over to yoga enough to give it validity, but he doesn't mention God or any bhakti. They are fascinating stories, tailor made for a loner who thought society was mostly wrong, and religions suck, and secrets are hidden.
Although often called a very well researched fraud, he was perfect for bringing that type of person around to the back door of yoga. Others were lead astray because they tried to believe every word and not branch out into other knowledge, but that could apply to any discipline. |
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