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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 05:19:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Frank-in-SanDiego
welcome to the club... I only know a few 7x24x365'ers in bliss. 'I like your positive attitude e.g. 'yet'. This bliss comes as a blessing and of HIS Grace. there are a few pit stops along the way to get one prepared for this... I am in hopes you are inches away.
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
Thanks for the kind words, Frank. I hope we are all inches away too. Not just us AYP-practicing folks, but all of humanity... I say "yet" because I strongly feel that 24/7 bliss is possible through AYP.
Meg said: Do you think that's true? I'd like it to be true, but there seem to be plenty of cases where siddhis were meted out to reckless gurus or plain folk who used them for personal gain.
Hey Meg. You're probably right.... but I'm guessing the people who use siddhis for personal gain are probably the ones with mere parlor tricks, rather than anything really significant. I don't know anyone with siddhis, but I'm thinking you're more likely to get them if your intentions are pure (using them not for ego benefit, but for all beings). For example, Jesus could raise the dead because his motivation was pure. Bob down the street can probably read your mind, but what good does that really do anyone? |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 11:02:57 AM
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| What about charisma? That might not be considered a siddhi to most people, but if you're a leader and don't have it, you'll come to think of it as one. I'm tallking profound charisma, like MLK (who used it well) or Bill Clinton (who can't seem to help himself). Do you know that he recently walked into a New York theater with his daughter, as part of the audience, and the whole auditorium stood and applauded him? That's charisma. And power, if one chooses to use it that way. Jesus had it to the extreme, and from what we're told, used it to help people, rather than impress them, but in doing so he inevitably brought the focus to himself. That part is par for the course with siddhis, and it would take someone with little or no ego to handle it well. Etherfish would be a great candidate. :) It is recorded that when the spotlight came on him, Jesus pointed to God the Father and said pithy words like, All this and more will you do too in the name of the Father. Which neatly places the whole siddhi thihg in some perspective. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 12:25:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
P.S. Aditya, would you REALLY want to be Bill Gates? Would you really want the sex life of Hugh Hefner or the business power of Donald Trump? Do these people seem in any way fulfilled or happy to you? They strike me as wholly miserable.
I understand what you want to say, Jim. But you sound too quick and subjective in your judgement, especially the term "wholly miserable" you put on Bill Gates. I think only he himself could know whether he is miserable or not.
I disagree. I know many people caught in the drudge of every day life, with sunken chests and defeated shoulders, who sigh and show their faces as pinched masks of stress and disappointment, who "get no satisfaction" but who think they're perfectly fine (in fact, some stake their very self image on their perfectly fine-ness). Because they don't have anything to compare it to. I have something to compare it to, so I'm more disappointed for them than they are for themselves.
I guess what I'm saying is the diff between being miserable and feeling as if you're miserable. Feeling as if your'e miserable is just another fold in the wet blanket. Being miserable is the problem, whether you self-witness it or not.
As to the prevalent misery level, I believe that as you continue with AYP, and observe the world through ever clearer glass, you'll notice that the magnitude of The Problem is far, far worse than you'd imagine. One of the hallmarks of depression (which I know very well myself) is the conviction that others are happier and more fulfilled than you are. Having escaped my depression, I've been shocked to note that misery is pandemic. There are allusions to this in all manner of art and literature. And you catch snippets of this underlying pervasie dissatisfaction in people's speech. But by observing people day in, day out, you'll get an increasing conviction that, deep down, everyone is waiting for the carrot. Even Bill Gates, Donald Trump, and Hugh Hefner.
This is not an analytical conclusion. It's intuitive. But while you're an analytical guy, that doesn't mean intuitive conclusions are less useful :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 08 2006 12:38:48 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 12:34:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
[quote]Meg, yes, the desire for God is indeed just another desire that must eventually be cast upon the yogic flame. But it will likely spur you to clear more mud from your windows than will a desire for bon bons or Camaros.........
I'm not so sure. I've been thinking about this for a while - the possibliity that we can take any one of our desires and follow it through to its completion, and it will lead to us inward to the Self (or the Source, or God, or however we think of THAT). It can't be casual; there has to be commitment toward the goal of realizing the fulfillment of that particular desire. So if you have a burning desire to own a Camaro, and the desire doesn't wane as the years tick by, then you would do well to commit yourself to following that desire to its bitter end. Buy the damn thing, drive it for all it's worth, bask in the glow of being a Camaro owner, and, eventually, come to the end of the road, as it were, where desire meets disappointment. This is the place you want to end up. How many thousands of books have been written on this subject? The place of emptiness and void, enlightenment and suicide. I'm not ready to write my own book quite yet, as I don't profess to have anything of major value to say on the subject. Except maybe this:
Desire is too often overlooked as a tremendously powerful tool to bring us 'home' to ourselves. And the desire for God is so often twisted and polluted by ignorance that it might just as well be a desire for a Camaro. (How many people have pursued a burning desire for God and ended up in some weird cult? They shoulda bought the Camaro). I'm not ready to call one desire holy and another profane, as it's all drawn from the same well. If someone has an unquenchable desire to attain siddhis, go for it! See where it takes you.
What you're talking about is at the heart of the occult. And occult isn't far from tantra, and tantra isn't far from yoga. But occult is pretty far from yoga. I just want to make sure you understand where this path leads. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 08 2006 12:36:30 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 12:55:44 PM
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quote:
Jim said: As to the prevalent misery level, I believe that as you continue with AYP, and observe the world through ever clearer glass, you'll notice that the magnitude of The Problem is far, far worse than you'd imagine. One of the hallmarks of depression (which I know very well myself) is the conviction that others are happier and more fulfilled than you are. Having escaped my depression, I've been shocked to note that misery is pandemic. There are allusions to this in all manner of art and literature. And you catch snippets of this underlying pervasie dissatisfaction in people's speech. But by observing people day in, day out, you'll get an increasing conviction that, deep down, everyone is waiting for the carrot.
It is strange.. I was just thinking of that.. I was talking to a friend 5 min back ... and could hear her complain and complain and complain.. I just couldn't take it any more.. no much negativity.. so much unnecessary pain.. so much bitterness with life... and my head is still spinning... and then I realized I have talked to her so many times before.. and she has always been like this.. she is still the same.. then something must have happened to me?
OMG.. I think I was just like that.. maybe still am.. and a lot of people I know are like that..
So much wasted energy... |
Edited by - Shanti on Jun 08 2006 1:29:23 PM |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 1:35:18 PM
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Bill Gates sad? I'd disagree. As long as he stays busy empire building, he's very happy and passionate and living a very full life bringing great benefit to others despite his shortcomings. You won't catch him wondering 'what it's all about,' staying in bed too long, or complaining about his parents. I'd say the same of Hefner too. He grew up in an extremely unhappy, puritanical environment and he promised to live a happier life than his parents and he really has helped the world shake off the chains of repression like few others. As long as he stays busy, he's happy.
I think the problem comes with these superstars is when they their attention away from their gifts, like sports stars retiring from basketball or Michael Jackson drifting away from his muse, etc.
As a related topic, I think that the "the business world yana" is a pranayama only type teaching which is glitchy and edgy and very few practitioners can master it in any stable way. And even they often have a hard time staying in the saddle. I also think that these superstars have learned the pranayama side of the equation from mentors and the business culture, but that they have meditation like habits that they have discovered on their own to create more stability and bliss so that all the affirmation/hard work stuff actually goes somewhere. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 1:37:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
What you're talking about is at the heart of the occult. And occult isn't far from tantra,
Jim - I don't understand either of these. I'm not saying that I don't agree - I'd just like you to elaborate a bit. My understanding of occult is negligible; of tantra is minimal, but I do understand that only the extreme branches of tantra are considered occultist, and they play a small part. Anyway, I'd like to understand your meaning. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 2:48:42 PM
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If I thought you knew more about the occult, I wouldn't have let you know! I think I've given a pretty good explanation of the classical yogic thinking in this thread. The stuff you've disagreed/deviated has represented (without your realizing) either the occult viewpoint or a viewpoint strongly headed that way, especially that last posting.
Yoga's about dropping desires (retaining for a while one single desire: the desire to drop desires). Working with and through desires is occult (yes, samayama has to do with desires, but we detach from them and surrender the result for the use of God, as yogis surrender all the fruits of our actions).
You've sort of stumbled upon it, I know, but I'm letting you know that's where your tack is headed. It's not something I can expand upon knowledgably, cuz I "don't go there". There's lots of occult that can be read about (e.g. Crowley).
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 08 2006 2:56:13 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 3:49:11 PM
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Jim said 'I know many people caught in the drudge of every day life, with sunken chests and defeated shoulders, who sigh and show their faces as pinched masks of stress and disappointment, who "get no satisfaction" but who think they're perfectly fine (in fact, some stake their very self image on their perfectly fine-ness). Because they don't have anything to compare it to. I have something to compare it to, so I'm more disappointed for them than they are for themselves.'
Well after just nearing completion of a year of person centred counselling at college I would suggest that even those of us who think we are 'alright' would benefit from counselling of some sort.
Yoda said ' think the problem comes with these superstars is when they their attention away from their gifts, like sports stars retiring from basketball or Michael Jackson drifting away from his muse, etc.'
Why do you consider these people superstars? Just because they are in the public eye and well known doesn't mean they are superstars.I don't consider people in the public eye who alledgedly take illegal drugs, commit crime, abuse others and all the other things that other mere mortals do, are superstars anymore than you are.
I hope I'm never considered a superstar if I need to waste my life on some of these needless things.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 4:25:37 PM
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Re: superstars.....as we go down the list, getting everything we wish for and still feeling discontent, we push outward toward ever more extreme examples we can point to as the magic solution to making us feel whole. I may be worth 100 million, but I feel like crap. Ah, if I had the money of Bill GATES...then all would be well.
As I drive to the store, and hit red lights or slow traffic, I live for arriving at that store. And arriving never feels that great. 'cuz I'm hungry. And eating feels ok, but soon the next thing takes hold. If I only had a raise at work....but I get the raise, and soon things are just off again. I hook up with the blonde, I get the Camaro, I lose the 150 pounds, yet it's still not right. Wishes come true and we don't feel better (at least not for long, and not much). Nothing's right. We still feel empty and dissatisfied and disconnected and disappointed and anxious and depressed and lacking. So maybe if I had a harem of 200 blondes, a billion dollars in the bank, the ability to make wine from water and read minds, and sprouted a seventeen foot lingham...maybe THEN.
We are so frigging dumb. We don't catch on. We are as stupid as dogs running at the track chasing the mechanical rabbit. We have all the big picture view of a racing dog.
Anyone who sticks his head up from this Matrix-like situation sees the problem. And if you see the problem, you know what needs to be done. You have no choice to come to the conclusion that you actually lack absolutely nothing in this exact moment, and the problem's all in your mind's perspective...its obsession for grasping and recoiling, for preference and aversion. http://www.allspirit.co.uk/hsinhsinming.html
If you do this spiritual work to clear your view sufficiently to see The Problem, and your reaction is to say "great! now I can get really cool super powers!", you are still in the delusion. Still running like an unknowing beast around the rabbit track. Adding to your blondes and camaros. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 08 2006 11:48:45 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 5:29:49 PM
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| Yes I agree Frank, Jesus is compassion. Compassion is the ultimate teaching. |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 10:01:02 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~~~~
Hello Folks,
I was just reading the following, and it applies to this conversation:
"Tantra activates many powerful subtle energies in our body and mind and,if we do not have any mental training or discipline, this excess energy will take the path of least resistance through our negative emotions of attachment, jealousy, pride, egotism, and so on" - Lama Ganchen
If/when one is gifted or achieves a siddhi or two how will s/he react? Lama Ganchen suggests if there is no discipline to that individual, the its 'business as usual' and lets take this act to the carnival! Yet the one that is focused and underatands this power need not put it up for display.
Now, where does that discipline reside? This is the key reason ( I belive ) why you do not see accomplished sadhu's doing side shows at Ringling Bros. They are disiplined - Yama and Niyama perhaps?
How would you act?
Just a thought...
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Jun 08 2006 10:25:00 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2006 : 11:49:22 PM
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| Not sure what kind, or effect of, powerful subtle energies Lama Ganchen was refering to, but I would guess that powerful siddhis, like the 'Jesus kind of powers' if you will, might come available after attatchment, jealousy, pride, egotism and etc. are transcended. Then one might be beyond the need to exercise Yama and Niyama. |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 01:09:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
The greatest siddhi is peace and happiness.
quote:
Originally posted by alan
Compassion is the ultimate teaching.
The greatest siddhi is to be able to give others peace and happiness. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 08:54:13 AM
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To give other something, that something must belong to you. And anything that belongs to you is no more than another Camaro.
Peace and happiness and shakti and all the rest aren't "things" to "own" or "give". They are just the fabric of the real universe peeking through the muck that's coated our windows. The more of a peek you have, the more contagious these qualities become for others. But you don't possess it, so you can't "give" it. It's just the universe acting through you, once you've removed layers and layers of goop that had previously been blocking it all. It's a return to your native state. |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2006 : 11:33:49 AM
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Nice tantra quote!
I define 'superstars' not to denote superiority, but rather to refer to somebody who has learned to handle unusually large amounts of energy in their daily life relative to that of a normal adult human.
I think there are plenty of people who are tired of the rat race of desire, but there are plenty of people who find it energizing and fun--just like kids do. In the final analysis, though, it is impossible to assess the happiness of another.
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2006 : 12:30:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
To give other something, that something must belong to you. And anything that belongs to you is no more than another Camaro.
Peace and happiness and shakti and all the rest aren't "things" to "own" or "give". They are just the fabric of the real universe peeking through the muck that's coated our windows. The more of a peek you have, the more contagious these qualities become for others. But you don't possess it, so you can't "give" it. It's just the universe acting through you, once you've removed layers and layers of goop that had previously been blocking it all. It's a return to your native state.
So then to re-phrase it, to be able to remove the layers and layers of goop that have been blocking it all for others is the greatest siddhi. |
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Maatsuah
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2006 : 09:14:02 AM
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This is a very interesting thread and I doubt I could add anything that hasn't already been examined. I have to wonder, like Meg, whether this so called desire for God above else is any different from other desires. God is not an entity or idea that has been clearly defined because this entity is above the human condition (language, logic, emotions,even polarity). I have heard conflicting definitions of who or what God is from people of all backgrounds and intellectual/spiritual levels. I have heard people swear to me that they had a personal relationship with God and then watched them do things that did not fit my definition of decent let alone God inspired. How then could anyone desire God so intensly when there is no way of defining God or even knowing if what you feel can be labeled as God? This person could only love their idea of God which is not the same thing to me. I can better understand the desire for peace and love because I think we have all at least had a glimpse of what peace and love are.
I wouldn't dream of asking Aditya to give up his idea of wanting siddhis because I have been guilty of wanting them also and I know how hard it is to have some people tell you to forget about them. You will only do this when you are ready.
I was just curious and wanted to break this conversation down to as basic a level as possible. If a realized/enlightened being came up to you, Aditya, and told you that he could give you either total peace or Siddhis but not both, which would you choose in the end.
I have been very tempted to go for siddhis because I am very curious about them, but if I were presented with this choice I would pick the peace over the Siddhis. Siddhis are interesting but not necessary. Love and peace are not intersting concepts, They are the basic components of meaningful existence and transcend interesting phenomenon. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2006 : 10:09:38 AM
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quote:
Maatsuah said: I have to wonder, like Meg, whether this so called desire for God above else is any different from other desires. God is not an entity or idea that has been clearly defined because this entity is above the human condition (language, logic, emotions,even polarity). I have heard conflicting definitions of who or what God is from people of all backgrounds and intellectual/spiritual levels.
Hi Maatsuah:
The eastern concept of "Ishta" goes a long way toward answering this question. It means "chosen ideal" (for each person) and it can be whatever one's concept of the highest ideal is -- God (specific or non-specific), truth, peace, knowledge, need to evolve, whatever turns the person on ... an emotional connection is the key.
If one's ishta is used to channel desire, it has great spiritual power. When it becomes continuous, it is called devotion, or bhakti. Desire/bhakti is the primary engine of all spiritual practice, as discussed in the AYP lessons here:
http://www.aypsite.org/12.html
http://www.aypsite.org/67.html
...and in many more lessons.
The idea that everyone must be devoted to the same ishta (ideal) has been a primary cause of strife and suffering throughout the ages. A key aspect of ishta is also to accept the beliefs of others. We call it tolerance, and it is a natural part of our evolution -- an innate divine quality in us all.
There is no one answer to the question, Who or what is God? We each have our own answer within us, and that is our ishta. It will evolve over time as we do, as our perception expands. All the while, our desire for our ideal will drive us to practices, and that is how evolution is accelerated. Bhakti and practices go hand-in-hand like that. So desire has an essential role to play on the spiritual path. With desire, things happen. With desire raised to devotion/bhakti, spiritual progress is assured.
As for siddhis, they are a by-product of purification and opening in the nervous system -- nothing more, nothing less. "Seek first the kingdom of heaven..."
On the other hand, if a desire for siddhis drives us to practices, it is better than no desire to do practices. Once in daily practices, our ishta will gradually evolve as we see more, and we will aim higher -- expanding ishta! 
Interestingly, as our ishta expands, so does our surrender to the process of spiritual transformation occurring within us. Then we have desire and surrender mixed -- active surrender to the divine expanding within and around us. In the end, it is all surrender ... with desire transformed to a constant outpouring of divine love, and that is how we carry on in the world.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2006 : 11:16:28 AM
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>>How then could anyone desire God so intensly when there is no way of defining God or even knowing if what you feel can be labeled as God? This person could only love their idea of God which is not the same thing to me.
Hi Maatsuah,
A very good point. These beliefs about god come from childhood from parents/society/religion. Intense desire develops to see or realize that god in person which drives the spiritual practices of the aspirant. Does it matter who we are concentrating on? I dont think so. Whether it is buddha/krishna/jesus, I feel the result would be same. It doesnt even matter whether a god really exists or not also. It is only our longing that brings out the god for us. Creates one if he doesnt exist!!
This ishta concept might sound illogical to some who want to realize truth instead. But even though it is mad love that made the former start on practices, I think everyone will pass through these stages of realizing truth as the god at some point.
-Near |
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Maatsuah
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2006 : 3:33:37 PM
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Thank you for your well thoughout explanation of what I might have misjudged as elusive and unctuous ideas regarding desire of Godd Yogani.
It does occur to me on closer reexamination of my own beliefs that most of us can also accept the idea of a creator when other definitions of God don't suffice.
This idea of Ishta is new to me, but since I do believe in tolerance, this concept does not sound illogical to me nearoanoke, especially as a tool for developing Bakti. The idea of expanding Ishta sounds like a good goal for the refinement of one's spiritual practice. I've definately been given something new to research as well as a different way to approach my views on on siddhis, God and desire.
I know the Guru is within us as you are found of saying Yogani, but I'm still glad your in the periphery sowing your seeds of insight. |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2006 : 06:14:07 AM
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'Jim and his karma''s replies about desires make me sick. He says that all desire is futile except the desire to be desireless. Are you saying that we just give up all desires and go to forest and sit crossslegged day and night? You might counter by saying that duties dictate what one should do day and night and not desires. But even duties are assumed in the first place based on the desire for the end result aren't they? If someone is a doctor his duty would be to treat patients. You might say there is no room for desire here. But he chose to be a doctor in the first place because of some desire.
If one is supposed to give up all desires, then what would dictate duty? If there were no desires what would prompt a soul to take birth as a species?
Are you saying that all the human growth and progress as a civilization amounts to no value in the end because they are based on material pursuits and desires? If desirelessness is the rule, there ought be no Hollywood, no Olympics, no Sciences, no Politics, nothing? Just sitting cross legged day and night?
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2006 : 4:36:27 PM
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Maximus said:
'Jim and his karma''s replies about desires make me sick. He says that all desire is futile except the desire to be desireless. Are you saying that we just give up all desires and go to forest and sit crossslegged day and night?
Actually Maximus, you might do best answering yourself this question you asked, and I think you can: Is J&K saying that we just give up all desires and go to forest and sit crossslegged day and night?
And if he is not saying that, exactly what is he saying?
I can't really answer for him, but I can say this much about teaching yoga in general: summings-up can be a little dicey in practice, because people's obsessive fundamentalist mind-sets can latch into them and get them all wrong. Some people have a tendency to latch onto something like 'drop all desires' and take them to an extreme and try to make a whole way of life out of them -- that in itself follows from an obsessiveness which is itself rooted in both strong desire and it's cousin, fear.
The path is more subtle than that -- and doing it well has a certain swing, flow and rhythm to it. Take instructions a little more like a jazz musician would take instruction from another -- and less like a dedicated young maoist would take up Mao's Little Red Book -- read between the lines, and don't reduce or extremize.
Above all relax -- everything that was written here is probably your friend, whether you temporarily get sick on it or not.
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Hunter
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2006 : 10:40:05 PM
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Hi Brother Maximus,
Perhaps Jim is speaking of performing one's duties and being quite active in the world except not being attached to the outcomes. Being active in the world while constantly remembering what it is that is really important, what it is that is really worth working for.
I don't really know, actually I have very little understanding of anything.
Mainly I just wanted to say that whatever Jim posts on this forum is meant only to be helpful, meant only for good.
Much love to you |
Edited by - Hunter on Jul 26 2006 11:18:18 PM |
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LittleDragon
29 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2006 : 12:25:11 AM
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Maximus,
First of all, I would like to second what David and Hunter have said. Jim has a good amount of insight and expresses it quite well. That doesn't mean that it isn't hard to understand. I doubt that Jim would say that he is without desires, or that he doesn't act on them. But I think he does see through them, past them, sees them for what they really are.
But, boy, you really know how to ask the hard questions. I also struggle with this desire issue. Without it, what would ever happen, yes? If this physical world was created, (and you may not think it was), doesn't that imply a "desire" on the Creator's part? If that is the case desire can't be classified as being totally "bad".
If you get involved in some form of spiritual practice I think you will find that your desires become less important to you. Less a measure of who you really are. But you will probably still have some form of desire, they will come and go, change, just like the weather. But that's ok, as long as you handle them in an ethical manner. Sometimes the world needs the rain, sometimes it needs sunshine. |
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Secret of Siddhi
