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Arman
Australia
47 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 02 2012 : 04:14:32 AM
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I recall hearing at a few different times the the claim that the moment of death is the most important part of our current journey, from one source or another. Perhaps this is a poetic meaning, but I think there may be more to it. I think specifically referring to the quality of your consciousness in the very last moment/s before you die.
Of what importance do you think this might hold? I used to think that perhaps in the last moment before you die, time slows down to the point where your last point of perception is carried on (almost?) indefinitely. That was just an idea I played with though.
I also recall listening and observing teachers who are very old and are in what seems to be a constant, urgent effort to stay in a deep state of meditation. I get the sense that it might be preparation for death.
What are your thoughts? May there be some importance in the last moment? |
Edited by - Arman on Sep 02 2012 06:28:46 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2012 : 05:29:49 AM
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Hi Arman,
Having not died (in this life) yet, I can't really comment from experience, but, what your post reminded me of was what happened for me every time I smoked Salvia Divinorum.
I used to smoke salvia pretty regularly about half a dozen or so years ago and what I noticed after dozens of uses was that whatever your last thought was before "breaking through" to "Salvia-Land" was what dictated how the trip would be experienced. For example, once, right before breaking through I put the pipe down on the table only to notice that the person beside me was reaching for the pipe (I had thought he was done smoking). I had an instant thought of "Oh sh*t! I should have passed him the pipe" right before I broke through, and the result was me feeling like I had murdered my best friend. In contrast, I've had trips where I was very relaxed and barely having any thoughts at all right before breaking through and had some of the most beautiful and inspiring trips I've ever had.
This dynamic was so consistent that I would spend long periods of time getting into the right state of mind before I smoked so that I had an enjoyable trip. Eventually even just the thought of smoking salvia was enough to set off an intense barrage of fear based thoughts and it would literally take weeks and months to work myself into a state of mind that was relaxed enough for me to attempt a trip. The preparation eventually would take so long that I lost all interest in using salvia again.
Is this how things will be at the time of death? I have no idea. But, based on my own near-death experiences I would say it is not far fetched to think it's a possibility.
Love!
Carson  |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2012 : 07:55:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arman
I recall hearing at a few different times the the claim that the moment of death is the most important part of our current journey, from one source or another. Perhaps this is a poetic meaning, but I think there may be more to it. I think specifically referring to the quality of your consciousness in the very last moment/s before you die.
Hi Arman,
No direct experience of death yet 
But this "moment of death" is something that comes up in many teachings, and I think is largely misunderstood. Ultimately, bodily death is just another phase and makes little difference to Awareness/Self. In the Gita, for example, this has been talked about extensively (Chapter 7).. There is one verse: "keeping one's breath in his control and unwavering attention on the point between the eyebrows, the Yogi attains the Self at the time of death". Now, is that even possible to hold tightly the weak and departing prana at the time of bodily death? Probably, for those yogis who have extensive practice in such things (jiva samadhi, or voluntary death).. But, that verse is very misinterpreted - it really is the death of the *ego* or sense of separate self that is being talked about - passage/shift into Awareness/Self.
There is also extensive recommendation for spiritual practices in a lot of traditions in order to "be ready" for death. Take Japa for example - constantly remembering the Lord through His name makes it easier to remember Him at the time of death. If we have spent our lives strongly identified as the body/mind, the time of death brings fear and panic and regret.. Exactly as Carson said, the last thought at the time of death is supposed to "determine" where one lands up 
But the beauty of all such teachings is this: whether they help at the time of death or not, they have a way of opening us over time in such a way that that whole "death" thing eventually becomes irrelevant. Once we see and know ourselves as Awareness, and not the body/mind, death doesn't have a hold on us. Once again from the Gita (Chapter 2): "like discarding worn out clothes, the Yogi discards his body at death with no fear or attachment to it."
Not sure if this helps
Love,
kami |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2012 : 08:48:27 AM
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Hi Arman & All;
glad you brought up the subject of death.It's in thoughts nowadays.For two reasons:
1stly,lately during meditation...I've seen like a blackhole and not sure how close I came.then my body disappeared in black space but Part of my face or head was still there to experience that.All in All,after that meditation session..my reaction was if this is death then it's very good...we're and we'll be fine.
2ndly,I've visited my dad's grace lately for few minutes.closed eyes n Sat quietly there.Felt very strong energy sensation between my body and the grave.there was some energy cooking happening in between As if there's a force that's pulling me towards the grave yet it's a giving energy & not taking...& felt "we'll meet again"...I left after two minutes for if I stayed longer I might find myself underground inside the grave .
While leaving I was in a state of big  ...because there lies a body only...not my dad's soul...So with what or whom I was being connected.
Also...what "we'll meet again!",I want to finish my journey &go back to God...weren't very pleased with the idea that I'll be back
Love
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Edited by - Namath on Sep 02 2012 09:06:44 AM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2012 : 10:08:07 AM
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Go for the breathless and pulseless state of nirvikalpa samadhi to find out ;)
PS: As the others, so far had no direct experience of that in this life aswell =)
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2012 : 10:36:46 AM
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quote:
they have a way of opening us over time in such a way that that whole "death" thing eventually becomes irrelevant.
very well said...
also from the Gita:"the real does not die, the unreal never lived" (II-16)
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2012 : 11:11:44 AM
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| Not something that can be experienced, dying certainly, but not death. We have a word for a concept that can only be no more real than the experience go God. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2012 : 11:36:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arman
I recall hearing at a few different times the the claim that the moment of death is the most important part of our current journey, from one source or another. Perhaps this is a poetic meaning, but I think there may be more to it. I think specifically referring to the quality of your consciousness in the very last moment/s before you die.
Of what importance do you think this might hold? I used to think that perhaps in the last moment before you die, time slows down to the point where your last point of perception is carried on (almost?) indefinitely. That was just an idea I played with though.
I also recall listening and observing teachers who are very old and are in what seems to be a constant, urgent effort to stay in a deep state of meditation. I get the sense that it might be preparation for death.
What are your thoughts? May there be some importance in the last moment?
It is very important and defines the next step. Being "aware" at the time makes all of the difference.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2012 : 11:39:22 AM
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quote:
It is very important and defines the next step. Being "aware" at the time makes all of the difference.
the next step for whom? |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2012 : 10:41:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
It is very important and defines the next step. Being "aware" at the time makes all of the difference.
the next step for whom?
For any aspect that decides to continue the dance...
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2012 : 11:09:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
It is very important and defines the next step. Being "aware" at the time makes all of the difference.
the next step for whom?
For any aspect that decides to continue the dance...
"The next step" implies there is "somewhere else" to get to - a "better" or "more enlightened" next life.. Once we know unequivocally that we are already home, there isn't a "next" step to wish or hope for.. If there is "another aspect" that wants something than what is, then we are not yet home. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2012 : 12:06:52 PM
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thinking about the next step leads us to this next step...and the next steps keep on going on and on and on 
knowing that there is no next step ...this question falls by itself.. |
Edited by - maheswari on Sep 03 2012 12:08:29 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2012 : 2:20:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
It is very important and defines the next step. Being "aware" at the time makes all of the difference.
the next step for whom?
For any aspect that decides to continue the dance...
"The next step" implies there is "somewhere else" to get to - a "better" or "more enlightened" next life.. Once we know unequivocally that we are already home, there isn't a "next" step to wish or hope for.. If there is "another aspect" that wants something than what is, then we are not yet home.
When one resides in the "natural state", there is always the choice. Yogani writes very well about it in enlightenment lessons and forum".
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2012 : 2:25:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
thinking about the next step leads us to this next step...and the next steps keep on going on and on and on
knowing that there is no next step ...this question falls by itself..
True...
But... Does not a Buddha or Jesus "exist" for those in the world?
It all just depends on your perspective.
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2012 : 10:49:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
[quote]
When one resides in the "natural state", there is always the choice. Yogani writes very well about it in enlightenment lessons and forum".
Sorry, perhaps we're not talking about the same thing I thought this was with regard to Arman's thoughts on what happens at the time of death? If one is already residing in the natural state, what does one need to be aware of at that time? There is always a choice, no question, but what specifically are you referring to about it?
Yes, of course, Buddha, Jesus and others did/do exist. What does that have to do with awareness at the time of death? I'm seriously confused 
Love,
kami |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 01:49:35 AM
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Hey Kami;
Not sure if it was a reply to this "I want to finish my journey &go back to God" as I weren't addressed directly.
but I can relate to Jeff's reply.For "natural state" or self realization is just the first step over here.There are maqams(levels) ...talking about Jesus,Budha or Mohamad.
Anyway,I don't have anything more to say.For every time this ego of mine speaks up,I get tortured in dream...It's not worth even to open this mouth anymore.
[img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 08:36:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
[quote]
When one resides in the "natural state", there is always the choice. Yogani writes very well about it in enlightenment lessons and forum".
Sorry, perhaps we're not talking about the same thing I thought this was with regard to Arman's thoughts on what happens at the time of death? If one is already residing in the natural state, what does one need to be aware of at that time? There is always a choice, no question, but what specifically are you referring to about it?
Yes, of course, Buddha, Jesus and others did/do exist. What does that have to do with awareness at the time of death? I'm seriously confused
Love,
kami
The Buddha and Jesus statement was a reply to Maheswari's comment.
As to the other... The time of death of the body is an important one to pay attention. In moments of great fear/stress those who reside in the natural state may find there still exist issues/concerns of the "ego". A recent post about financial issues and the possible death of a loved animal is a perfect example of it.
Love, Jeff |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 08:42:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Namath
Hey Kami;
Not sure if it was a reply to this "I want to finish my journey &go back to God" as I weren't addressed directly.
but I can relate to Jeff's reply.For "natural state" or self realization is just the first step over here.There are maqams(levels) ...talking about Jesus,Budha or Mohamad.
Anyway,I don't have anything more to say.For every time this ego of mine speaks up,I get tortured in dream...It's not worth even to open this mouth anymore.
[img]icon_heart.gif[/img]
As you said... The wonderful and loving mystery continues to unfold. Being "done" is a choice.
[img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 09:58:30 AM
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Thanks, Jeff and Namath.
True, about the moment of death, Jeff, as many here have stated.
However, when one resides "as" Awareness, there is nothing to be aware "of" at the time of death or any other time. For example, Ramana Maharshi's last words were something about whether someone had fed the bird, nothing very profound. To him, death was just another routine, and he discouraged people around from fussing over him as his body lay dying. The Buddha lived and died "as" Awareness, and I can't recall reading if he was aware "of" where he wanted to go next.
I am not aware of any other levels to attain beyond self-realization, but that is quite possibly my own ignorance. To always want to attain some "other" thing is not being liberated, or residing in Awareness, IMHO. As That, there is nowhere else to go.
When I have the real experience of death, I will have to find a way to report back here
Love,
kami
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Edited by - kami on Sep 04 2012 10:18:02 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 10:55:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
However, when one resides "as" Awareness, there is nothing to be aware "of" at the time of death or any other time. For example, Ramana Maharshi's last words were something about whether someone had fed the bird, nothing very profound. To him, death was just another routine, and he discouraged people around from fussing over him as his body lay dying. The Buddha lived and died "as" Awareness, and I can't recall reading if he was aware "of" where he wanted to go next.
If one is a true Buddha then there is no question...
But, Jesus tells of issue for many of the rest in his final words before death...
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46 KJV)
Love, Jeff |
Edited by - jeff on Sep 04 2012 10:57:06 AM |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 12:17:42 PM
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Thanks Jeff
Love to you. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 1:03:59 PM
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Thank you.
Love to you too. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 6:52:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
But, Jesus tells of issue for many of the rest in his final words before death...
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46 KJV)
Love, Jeff
That quote may not be what it seems. I am not an expert at this, but I remember reading somewhere that Jesus was not saying what he felt at that time. But rather he was fulfilling a prophecy from many years before.
It is something like to let people know he was the messiah mentioned in psalms 22 and remind them of that passage, or something like that.
Anyone else remember what that story was?
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Edited by - Etherfish on Sep 04 2012 7:07:33 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 7:30:09 PM
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| The Jews at that time didn't have books, but they were taught psalms orally. They all knew that psalm that we call 22 now. it was a prophecy of a messiah who was to come, and then later be persecuted and crucified. Although he was surrounded by evil people who thought he was not a messiah, his last words were chosen to have special meaning to his followers only. Because they would know that psalm from memory. And what he was saying was the prophecy has been fulfilled. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 9:16:09 PM
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I believe Jesus was "showing/teaching us" the moment of fear that all experience. I do not doubt he was "one with the father" at that time. His next words, reminding us to be strong...
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (Luke 23:46 KJV)
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 10:08:52 PM
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Yes, that is psalm 31:5, showing that he was praying the psalms, not expressing feelings.
They were written long before his birth. |
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The importance of the moment of death
