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kami
USA
921 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 05 2012 : 9:05:25 PM
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Josh and Kev,
Thanks for the wonderful discussion  Can resonate with both of you here..
quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
I seem to be continually slipping in and "out of" this realization. I'm never really out of it, there's just clear and un-clear seeing. I'm not sure why this is happening.
This has been happening here too. After the initial days of seemingly no "slipping" at all, there is now this sense of separation or contraction at various times, primarily realizing after the fact that for that previous time, there was identification with the ego.
There was some trepidation with this, a sort of sense of loss. But, as you all have mentioned, there is gradual acceptance of that sense of contraction (resistance), seeing and knowing that even this arises in Awareness, as Awareness. Of course, those contracted instances are a result of conditioning, vasanas.
There is much emphasis on vasana elimination in Vedanta. In fact, the common assumption is that knowledge (jnana) and abidance in Awareness is not even possible without attenuation of vasanas through whatever means. Meditation and other practices, service, etc help greatly with that.
Although knowledge of the Self is what sets us free, it is experiential and not intellectual knowledge; not as a state, but the continual seeing and allowing/releasing directly into present moment experience. As vasanas get attenuated through yoga practices, inquiry and allowing becomes easier, more natural. All limbs of yoga are complementary and exponentially additive, as Yogani explains.
It was beautiful to see for example, that silence is also subtle resistance as Karl pointed out a few posts ago.. Because even silence is "perceived", and anything that is perceived is an object, not the subject, the perceiver. That seeing results in instantaneous "allowing" into is-ness, with dissolution of both the perceiver and perceived. Very sweet!
Thank you
Love,
kami |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2012 : 12:20:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Although knowledge of the Self is what sets us free, it is experiential and not intellectual knowledge
This is the trap. This is not true.
As you have said yourself, the self you can perceive is not the self.
As a matter of fact, it is a subtle non-experiential knowledge which roots one in nondualistic, abiding awareness.
These so-called bodies, emotions and minds, these mass of conditioned
tendencies are not in fact us. You now this.
This 'fighting of the ego' is craziness. What is the ego? Awareness.
What are the 'impurities'? Awareness! What is that which struggles?
Awareness!!
It is the conditioned responses (inaccurate KNOWLEDGE) that we
cling to, which colors the clearness that we really are, and
NO AMOUNT of 'experience' of 'the self' or anything else, is
worth a DAMN for anything..
It's when you don't need to 'feel' the 'self' (which isn't the self
if you can feel it), that we are whole.
When we struggle to conceptualize the self and to feel the self and
to be 'in the flow with the self' that we are in fact CREATING
the very 'barriers' that we then fight against!
Discrimination can cure this sickness... the sick need to define
a self, so that we can hide within it, away from LIFE.
Love,
Kevin
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2012 : 1:51:15 PM
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Hi Kevin,
I agree that what you say is the truth, speaking from my direct experience. You already are That. Everything is That. As soon as you make the Self into any thing, you're already missing it.
Abiding non-dual awareness is always the case, it's all that anything is. But it seems to me that your advice comes down to the age old, "Progressive" versus "Instant" enlightenment argument.
For how many people is the advice along the lines of 'there's nothing to attain, nothing to do, there is only awareness" etc, that we hear from many non-duality gurus, useful?
IMO - A limited few, who have probably had a long history of spiritual practices, in this life or a former one, and are ripe for this advice, easily absorbing the subtle non-experiential knowledge of which you speak.
I completely agree with the absolute truth of your statement, as I've experienced that truth for myself. Basically: all you've got is awareness, and within that awareness, but also MADE OF that awareness, is the confusion of ignorance, conditioned responses and identification with form that turns into the illusory appearance of suffering human beings who are seeking enlightenment to free them from their imaginary state of ignorance and un-enlightenment.
It's the cosmic joke of the unlimited appearing to contract and suffer and be something other than it's own vast, limitless nature - when really, it's all just an elaborate show.
But how easy is it to see this? Well, it's simultaneously the easiest and most natural thing in the world, and a dastardly tricky conundrum.
And that's where spiritual practices come in, not for fighting the ego (that doesn't make sense) but simply extricating oneself from the labyrinth of identification with form (the ego IS identification with form).
Words start to fail when talking about this stuff, so please take the general gist, I'm sure I messed some of that explanation up. I have a sleepy head today.
What exactly is the method of discrimination to which you refer, and how do you apply it? I'm interested. And what is your view on the importance of practices? I think the fact we can all agree on, is that while seeking is not a cause of waking up (it's often just another activity in which we thrash around, caught in the web of identifications, imagining some 'state' of enlightenment as a future goal) there is a practical use in spiritual practices.
As the seeker matures (becoming less caught up in believing in/identification with this appearance of a person and a world) the practices become more and more subtle, eventually resulting in a point at which effortless discrimination, or nothing at all, is all that's needed. Maybe you are there, but in the meantime, most people are going to benefit from some sort of practice, but would be wise not to identify any experiences that arise as result of the practices as being "That".
The paradox is we often need to "DO" and "INQUIRE" until the point the where we realize there's nothing to do, and nobody to inquire.
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2012 : 1:57:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
When we struggle to conceptualize the self and to feel the self and
to be 'in the flow with the self' that we are in fact CREATING
the very 'barriers' that we then fight against!
Discrimination can cure this sickness... the sick need to define
a self, so that we can hide within it, away from LIFE.
Hi Kev
Couldn't agree more here. Yes, discrimination (viveka) is considered one of the two prerequisites in Vedanta (the other being dispassion, vairagya).
The point on intellectual knowing is what you are talking about above - conceptualizing the self in glorious terms, and awakening as the big bang that will change everything instantaneously with no further pain or loss.
Being a part of a large circle of Vedantins, I can tell you that intellectual knowledge is very common. Knowing what the scriptures say is very different than actual experience of is-ness. By experience, I don't mean the "big bang" above, but the subtle shift that we have all been experiencing and describing; knowledge based on discrimination and dispassion.
My ability to express things has tanked severely the last few days. Sorry
Love,
kami |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2012 : 2:19:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
When we struggle to conceptualize the self and to feel the self and
to be 'in the flow with the self' that we are in fact CREATING
the very 'barriers' that we then fight against!
Discrimination can cure this sickness... the sick need to define
a self, so that we can hide within it, away from LIFE.
Hi Kev
Couldn't agree more here. Yes, discrimination (viveka) is considered one of the two prerequisites in Vedanta (the other being dispassion, vairagya).
The point on intellectual knowing is what you are talking about above - conceptualizing the self in glorious terms, and awakening as the big bang that will change everything instantaneously with no further pain or loss.
Being a part of a large circle of Vedantins, I can tell you that intellectual knowledge is very common. Knowing what the scriptures say is very different than actual experience of is-ness. By experience, I don't mean the "big bang" above, but the subtle shift that we have all been experiencing and describing; knowledge based on discrimination and dispassion.
My ability to express things has tanked severely the last few days. Sorry
Love,
kami
Oh, ok, cool.
The addiction to thinking that the self can be perceived is such
a large part of yoga, and a trap that could last for lifetimes
doesn't get enough Awareness in my opinion.
I'm glad that I'm preaching to the choir.
Love,
Kev |
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The balance between flow and resistance
