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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 25 2012 : 4:01:48 PM
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Hey friends,
Thought I would share something that I came to realize last night.
Yesterday I went to a concert that has been on my 'bucket list' for over 15 years. The band "Refused" from Sweden has influenced my life in so many ways it is impossible to imagine where I would be today had they never existed. 14 years ago they became famous for a song called "New Noise" and within months of the album this song was on coming out, they broke up. I figured I would never ever get a chance to see them live, but this summer they reformed for a tour and last night I was able to go to the Calgary concert. It was epic to say the least, and I laughed the entire way through, even as I was getting every last bead of sweat pounded out of me in the mosh pit.
Anyway, it has been years since I have gone to a concert like this... one in which I had the desire to be right in the thick of the action, putting it all out there on the dance floor/mosh pit. And even during the first song as I jumped, danced, was pushed, elbowed, smashed into, jumped on, lost a shoe, and was screaming my heart out, I started to get extremely fatigued (as one may expect  ). Then, I brought my awareness out of the external environment, just for a moment and brought it back to "Source"... as this shift in awareness took place I was shoved, but instead of tensing up and trying to stop myself from falling over like anyone normally would, there was no "resistance" in my body and I flowed with the movement instead of resisting it. I let myself to get bounced around for a bit in this state, which allowed my body to come back to a state where I was breathing normally and was fully recovered from the initial cardio and muscular drain (even just a minute or two in a mosh pit like this is similar to going to the gym and working out every muscle group for hours). As this happened it sunk in that if I could maintain that perfect balance between "push and pull" or "flow and resistance" I could probably manage to make it through this entire show while staying right in the middle of the action (which was the goal... I did not want to miss a single millisecond of this one). And I did. I left the action once to hydrate myself, and within a minute was back in the center, laughing away as I continued to explore the beauty of balance and enjoy the best show I have ever seen.
Anyway, upon reflecting on this analogy of balance between flow and resistance, I realized that there is probably a lesson here for every day living. I have not come to a verbal solidification of what that is yet, but I thought I would put this topic out there for others to comment on as I come to a conclusion about how this analogy can play out in regular life.
Figured I'd also share a video of Refused playing "New Noise" in NY earlier this year (best audio/video quality I could find) and the lyrics as well. The lyrics aren't "spiritual," they are political as this is what Refused was about, but to me, there is a parallel here and I don't think they are unfitting for the AYP forum.
New Noise video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBW1...ature=fvwrel
Lyrics:
"New Noise"
Can I scream? Yeah!
We lack the motion to move to the new beat
We lack the motion to move to the new beat
It's here for us to admire if we can afford the beauty of it
Can afford the luxury of turning our heads
Adjust that thousand dollars smile and behold the creation of man
Great words won't cover ugly actions - good frames won't save bad paintings
We lack the motion to move to the new beat. Yeah!
We lack... motion
When the day is over - Hey! - the doors are locked on us
Money buys the access - and we can't pay the cost
And how can we expect anyone to listen if we are using the same old voice?
We need new noise - new art for the real people
We dance to all the wrong songs
We enjoy all the wrong moves
We dance to all the wrong songs
We're not leading
We dance to all the wrong songs
We enjoy all the wrong moves
We dance to all the wrong songs
We're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not...
Leading
We dance - all the wrong songs
We enjoy - all the wrong moves
We dance - all the wrong songs
We dance - all the wrong songs
We enjoy - all the wrong moves
We dance - all the wrong songs
Here we go!
We dance to all the wrong songs
We enjoy all the wrong moves
We dance to all the wrong songs
We're not leading. Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!
The new beat! The new beat! The new beat! The new beat!
The new beat! The new beat! The new beat! The new beat!
The new beat! The new beat! The new beat! The new beat!
The new beat! The new beat! The new beat! The new beat!
Thank you.
Love!
Carson  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2012 : 8:56:27 PM
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| I started doing Asanas about 12 months ago I had the same experience when doing the tree pose. I learned to let go of correction the balance and like a tree I literally swayed and came to rest. The moment I started thinking about the need to balance all the effort and struggle came right back in. It was a terrific exercise for learning the physical connection. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2012 : 10:41:17 PM
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I had a similar experience once when I was a teenager. I was at a punk show and kind of dove into a mosh pit and had some success in flirting with the edge of violence. I never got hit or hit anyone, but there was that strong sense of tension that had to be maintained to stay on my feet. But the release came when I did get pushed and had to just go with the flow. There's certainly plenty of room to use that exchange of motion as a metaphor.
I appreciate the punk/metal/hardcore scene because it acknowledges the rawness and vicious quality that life on Earth still has. People get eaten by sharks, people get raped and murdered by the minute, and to me, punk music in some way creatively absorbs that chaos and turns into something more artistic, something more akin to the divine flow that is evolving us away from violence (and away from the predator-prey model--I just stopped eating meat and I'm feeling the truth of it).
Vibrant and wild, Carson, as usual. Keepin' it real!  |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2012 : 11:05:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Anyway, upon reflecting on this analogy of balance between flow and resistance, I realized that there is probably a lesson here for every day living. I have not come to a verbal solidification of what that is yet, but I thought I would put this topic out there for others to comment on as I come to a conclusion about how this analogy can play out in regular life.
Wow!! Talk about synchronicity! All day long, I've been mulling over this exact topic, and was considering posting this.
What I'm discovering is that resistance is a very sneaky thing. Even when we think we are in surrender mode, if we dig deeper, we can often find resistance. And to be clear, I mean resistance to be *any* opposition to what is, or not letting things be as they are.
Here is an example of this sneaky quality: say I am getting prepared for a meeting, and I know there will be an acquaintance there who has the habit of contradicting me at all times. As soon as I think about him, sensations of mild anxiety come up. And so will another subtle thought - that I shouldn't be feeling this way. And another saying why not.. So as I include all that in awareness, and watch it all - the original thought and resistance to it, it all begins to relax.. Until I realize there is still some "holding on" - this time a sense of loss to have had this contracted experience, an another saying it's all fine - more resistance that needs relaxing!! Sneaky because this last part is very subtle and can be easily overlooked.
There comes a moment in this kind of exploration and inquiry when we seem to be "hanging in thin air" (at least that's how it feels for me), perfectly balanced between resistance and surrender. Almost simultaneously is the entrance into is-ness; total surrender/flow.
Seems like unless we can be willing to explore our experience in the moment, we can be fooled into thinking we are indeed "going with the flow" or surrendering. It is interesting to see all these subtle and sneaky forms of resistance.. The "big" ones seem to be obvious, such as being aware of the contracted awareness and as the separate self.. But resistance in ordinary and mundane activities are relatively harder to "catch" because we have played that game for so long.. Takes time and practice to undo it..
Love,
kami |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2012 : 04:01:36 AM
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Brilliant Kami that's very true. I do that constantly, in everything, it's active witnessing and active self inquiry all at once and just like the Mantra it refines over time. I love it when I find some because it has become increasingly rare it has become like a treat.
Last night I was in a very heated discussion with a friend, he is as stubborn as I am which is a great battleground because we have gone beyond conventional niceties and social etiquette. In many ways it's even better than heated discussions with family members. It's like two masters meeting to test each others skill.
Each time we dipped into a subject I was able to examine my own internal performance in a critical way totally objectively. Last night, particularly was just like wearing off the edges on a grindstone. Ah yes, I see, that one still needs work, what's happening here? to whom is that thought occurring? why is that emotion present ? At the end of the night I thanked him for the discussion and his help. This dipping into the fire is just a necessary part of growth, the grounding activity and practice rolled into one. It lets us know that we still have a long way to go, the book is only a few pages in and there is still much to learn.
Haha I just went back to the subservience thread and your remark about your partner Kami. I have been like that with my partner for a long time now, but I realised that what you are noticing with your partner is what I am noticing outside of that level of relationship into the wider world. In a way I am becoming intimate and open to everyone equally, bit by bit. |
Edited by - karl on Aug 26 2012 04:06:19 AM |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2012 : 08:49:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
This dipping into the fire is just a necessary part of growth, the grounding activity and practice rolled into one. It lets us know that we still have a long way to go, the book is only a few pages in and there is still much to learn.
Love this! In my case Karl, the book has just been opened and I've made it through the dedication
This is necessary as you say - sometimes exhausting, sometimes disheartening, often exhilarating.. No matter what, it seems like it will never really end.
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Haha I just went back to the subservience thread and your remark about your partner Kami. I have been like that with my partner for a long time now, but I realised that what you are noticing with your partner is what I am noticing outside of that level of relationship into the wider world. In a way I am becoming intimate and open to everyone equally, bit by bit.
Thank you Does it seem to you that intimacy with others is a function of intimacy with oneself? The seeing of ourselves as awareness is the most intimate thing, isn't it? Hard to describe, only felt and sensed. And then seeing that there is no "me", not in this body or mind.. And then seeing there is no "other" either, not in that body or mind.. There is *only* awareness.. Thus, that sense of intimacy with "oneself" just flows to "others".. Oh, it is so simple and so beautiful - brings me to my knees, with heart wide open..
But, like above, takes continuous polishing of perception to abide in it.. My experience so far.. Does it make sense to you?
Love to you. Ever grateful for you. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2012 : 09:51:16 AM
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I want to respond to the whole thread but really need to hit the sack soon, so I just want to say this for now...
quote:
Originally posted by kami
Does it seem to you that intimacy with others is a function of intimacy with oneself? The seeing of ourselves as awareness is the most intimate thing, isn't it?
I definitely feel that our ability to be intimate with others is in direct proportion to our ability to be intimate with ourselves. But from my perspective, the most intimate thing is not seeing ourselves as awareness, but seeing ourselves as completely human.
That's all I have time for now. 
Love you all so much!
Carson
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2012 : 10:31:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I definitely feel that our ability to be intimate with others is in direct proportion to our ability to be intimate with ourselves. But from my perspective, the most intimate thing is not seeing ourselves as awareness, but seeing ourselves as completely human.
Yes, very much human - the two are inseparable. It isn't some exalted "state", but very ordinary - awareness is what makes any seeing possible, and is and through the human-ness in ourselves and others. All limitations, issues, etc.. All good, all as is..
Love! |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2012 : 4:23:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
quote:
Originally posted by karl
This dipping into the fire is just a necessary part of growth, the grounding activity and practice rolled into one. It lets us know that we still have a long way to go, the book is only a few pages in and there is still much to learn.
Love this! In my case Karl, the book has just been opened and I've made it through the dedication
This is necessary as you say - sometimes exhausting, sometimes disheartening, often exhilarating.. No matter what, it seems like it will never really end.
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Haha I just went back to the subservience thread and your remark about your partner Kami. I have been like that with my partner for a long time now, but I realised that what you are noticing with your partner is what I am noticing outside of that level of relationship into the wider world. In a way I am becoming intimate and open to everyone equally, bit by bit.
Thank you Does it seem to you that intimacy with others is a function of intimacy with oneself? The seeing of ourselves as awareness is the most intimate thing, isn't it? Hard to describe, only felt and sensed. And then seeing that there is no "me", not in this body or mind.. And then seeing there is no "other" either, not in that body or mind.. There is *only* awareness.. Thus, that sense of intimacy with "oneself" just flows to "others".. Oh, it is so simple and so beautiful - brings me to my knees, with heart wide open..
But, like above, takes continuous polishing of perception to abide in it.. My experience so far.. Does it make sense to you?
Love to you. Ever grateful for you.
sometimes stuff is flying past too fast to figure out where I was until I was so far away it no longer mattered. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2012 : 10:55:57 AM
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Thanks! Time to give up all this over-analysis
Love to all! |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 02:59:06 AM
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Hi Everyone, thanks for all the great commentary here.
I think my main point was along the lines that there is a time to "flow with it" and a time to "make a stand" (so-to-speak). If I had just "flowed with it" throughout the whole mosh pit I would have been trampled for certain. I know that in this "spiritual game" the goal is often to "always flow with It/Life" but I think that this can be taken to an extreme and even to a point of detriment. That's why I titled this thread "The balance between flow and resistance"... because, from here, it appears that there is a time to flow with it and a time to firmly plant oneself against the blowing winds. I'm still in the early stages of inquiry here so I may be completely off-base and could very possibly completely contradict what I'm saying here in due time, but speaking from where I am at in this moment, this is how it seems.
Love!
Carson
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 04:36:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Everyone, thanks for all the great commentary here.
I think my main point was along the lines that there is a time to "flow with it" and a time to "make a stand" (so-to-speak). If I had just "flowed with it" throughout the whole mosh pit I would have been trampled for certain. I know that in this "spiritual game" the goal is often to "always flow with It/Life" but I think that this can be taken to an extreme and even to a point of detriment. That's why I titled this thread "The balance between flow and resistance"... because, from here, it appears that there is a time to flow with it and a time to firmly plant oneself against the blowing winds. I'm still in the early stages of inquiry here so I may be completely off-base and could very possibly completely contradict what I'm saying here in due time, but speaking from where I am at in this moment, this is how it seems.
Love!
Carson
It's more important to recognise rejection and attachment, then you always retain perfect balance, it refines. You can never know balance only imbalance, balance just is when both rejection and attachment are absent. It's sort of opposite to what seems rational. Always accept that something will cause imbalance and then you can be prepared for it.
Watch the film 'man on a wire' for the ultimate in balance.
Going with the flow is really just honing the ability to feel those two conditions. When they are felt there is resistance to the flow. It's like building a dam or digging a channel, both distort the flow sufficiently that you feel it as resistance. So, feel resistance, examine self for rejection or attachment. Go to the root cause and remove the blockage or the extra channel. By enquiring constantly the answer will always result in balance being restored, but enquiry has to be honest and open and that can be difficult without plenty of stillness to allow it. Instead the Ego grabs the technique and uses it for an alternate purpose. |
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Running Water
Belgium
18 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 05:18:03 AM
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Hey Carson,
I envoyed your post! It reminded me to the years ('80's) that I was a sannyasin of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. In that time we did a lot of Nataraj meditation ( = dancing) . You can see it here :
http://goo.gl/UzaeY
See Osho's comment.
I experienced it also as such.
I hope this might give a different perspective to your experience.
( you will hear that this Nataraj-music is totatlly different than the music of "Refused"
Maybe there is more a kind of build-in harmony in this Indian music and leads easier to the kind of flow that can end in a meditative state. ( where resistance is absent at that moment).
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 12:59:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
It's more important to recognise rejection and attachment, then you always retain perfect balance, it refines. You can never know balance only imbalance, balance just is when both rejection and attachment are absent. It's sort of opposite to what seems rational. Always accept that something will cause imbalance and then you can be prepared for it.
Watch the film 'man on a wire' for the ultimate in balance.
Going with the flow is really just honing the ability to feel those two conditions. When they are felt there is resistance to the flow. It's like building a dam or digging a channel, both distort the flow sufficiently that you feel it as resistance. So, feel resistance, examine self for rejection or attachment. Go to the root cause and remove the blockage or the extra channel. By enquiring constantly the answer will always result in balance being restored, but enquiry has to be honest and open and that can be difficult without plenty of stillness to allow it. Instead the Ego grabs the technique and uses it for an alternate purpose.
Beautiful!! Thanks You have the ability to put in words the most difficult things to express, very admirable.
This is exactly what I'm going through at the moment - the dance between holding and letting go. The balance is always restored when there is willingness to be vulnerable. And yes, the inquiry itself becomes meaningless in the hands of the ego; but then, it can be very difficult to even see that, particularly if this is done as we go about our business and not exclusively in a meditative state. But as you say, inner silence (and therefore, the witness) is key - to not just see where inquiry is going, but also to see the holding.
Finally, I'm beginning to understand that balance = equanimity. It *feels* a lot like indifference, but is a happy, curious, and accepting indifference, if that makes any sense.
Love,
kami |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 3:35:36 PM
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| yes, sort of like that, it's like total silence, no sensation, it's the sweet spot where there is nothing, no feeling, not even stillness, it just is. Anytime that you feel anything that is resistance, even if you feel stillness or silence that is still resistance, the ability to feel it refines. |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 01 2012 : 9:04:50 PM
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I clicked onto that post Karl at an opportune moment.
I've finally moved beyond the ego grasping at inquiry as means of fulfilling its agenda. Since recent experiences, there's much less grasping for any particular state. I've always had very intense, almost bipolar emotions.
Maintaining any sort of balance in life has always been a challenge. The emotions have always been random, and seemingly lacked cause. One minute, feeling fine, the next entering a downward spiral. And that could happen at anytime, without provocation. The last 8 years have been a steady and constant improvement. Despite this, I'd always seen suffering really as something to be overcome. Just a problem that I'd rather not have.
But the relationship has changed. Since there is no sufferer, just sensations arising, the subtle agenda to feel better somehow has slowly dropped away. The depth of the inner stillness allows me to simply ask:
What is being felt, is that sensation really suffering?
What label does mind want to put on it?
Is it really that bad? Is there really any reason to reject this experience?
Is there an agenda present? An agenda of not-wanting this to be there?
Can I just let all this be exactly as it is, including the agenda?
Is there anything I could do to change this? If not, could I just completely let it be, and recognize there's no me to do anything about it anyway?
Deeper and deeper goes the recognition of attachment and rejection, and gradually the core of these two fear-based energies is allowed to dissipate. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2012 : 05:31:15 AM
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Yes, that is the process, as yet I have not found the end to it, just do it as it comes up, never flinching, never grasping.
I was the same as you, since I was about 12 I suffered terrible depression. These days I would probably have been put on anti depressants. I believe it is the bi polar nature that is the catalyst, without it I would not have been looking for anything.
Once I despaired at the emotions and feelings and now I treat them like a good film and look forward to any roughening. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2012 : 11:55:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
I clicked onto that post Karl at an opportune moment.
I've finally moved beyond the ego grasping at inquiry as means of fulfilling its agenda. Since recent experiences, there's much less grasping for any particular state. I've always had very intense, almost bipolar emotions.
Maintaining any sort of balance in life has always been a challenge. The emotions have always been random, and seemingly lacked cause. One minute, feeling fine, the next entering a downward spiral. And that could happen at anytime, without provocation. The last 8 years have been a steady and constant improvement. Despite this, I'd always seen suffering really as something to be overcome. Just a problem that I'd rather not have.
But the relationship has changed. Since there is no sufferer, just sensations arising, the subtle agenda to feel better somehow has slowly dropped away. The depth of the inner stillness allows me to simply ask:
What is being felt, is that sensation really suffering?
What label does mind want to put on it?
Is it really that bad? Is there really any reason to reject this experience?
Is there an agenda present? An agenda of not-wanting this to be there?
Can I just let all this be exactly as it is, including the agenda?
Is there anything I could do to change this? If not, could I just completely let it be, and recognize there's no me to do anything about it anyway?
Deeper and deeper goes the recognition of attachment and rejection, and gradually the core of these two fear-based energies is allowed to dissipate.
There comes a point where even the 'obstructions' are seen in
their true form; that being pure awareness.
A lot of Advaita folks would say, that the goal is not to eliminate
all vikalpas, but to eliminate enough that you come to know that
you are Awareness. Once you know that you are Awareness, not as
an object, but as the subject which is Awareness, then there is
no more 'purification' to do, as you come to see that you are
the Subject, not any object. Since you are now free of ALL objects,
period, it does not matter what remains, it has no power over you.
Thus the balance between Yoga and Inquiry is an important one;
as a matter of fact some people are just born ready to jump
right into inquiry; others require more yoga then inquiry.
The only reason I'm sharing this, is because it is possible
to go 'chasing after purification', when in fact it may be
time for only inquiry and discrimination, as no amount of
'spiritual experiences' are of the least value; only the
unshakable knowledge that you are Awareness and nothing else
can lead to liberation from ignorance.
This certain knowledge, which is not based upon any form of
experience or conjecture or practice can root you in eternity;
as knowledge "jnana" takes no 'energy' to maintain.
Liberation is not a mind state, but rather what is behind
mind states: your natural self.
My apologies if I intruded on this thread.
Love,
Kevin
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2012 : 09:54:18 AM
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Hi Kevin,
No thank you that's a very well-made point.
Increasingly I know myself as that awareness - and discrimination/Jnana is really my primary practice
Love,
josh |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2012 : 12:00:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
Hi Kevin,
No thank you that's a very well-made point.
Increasingly I know myself as that awareness - and discrimination/Jnana is really my primary practice
Love,
josh
Glad to hear it.
The thing that got me at first, was the very human tendency to say at many points, "ah! That is the Self". The experience is all shiny and wonderful, and I feel like I could throw lightning bolts from the top of the mountain -- this MUST be the self.
So I cycled around for years and years like that.
The thing I missed, that nearly every misses of course, is that anything you can perceive is not Awareness.
Now of course the so-called 'physical world' is also Awareness,
but Awareness in a second tier mode due to Awareness-imposed
'self-limitation'.
If Awareness didn't 'curl up into a ball' (to allow for the
appearance of mind, energy and matter for example), there would
be no ball to play with (no existence).
So for purposes of discrimination, it's very easy to ascertain what the Self is (Awareness). If you can perceive it, it's not 'it'.
Eventually we run through all possible options, and see that
"I am not that", to every last dot of every last thing.. and what's
'left' is that which which everything depends upon, but which
depends on nothing.
At this point, Awareness stops being something you go looking for,
and you realize that YOU are Awareness and nothing can touch you,
nothing matters that is 'outside of you', as there is no outside..
that in fact YOU are the indwelling principle to everything.. the
unseen air in a balloon, which is twisted into the many balloon
animals of existence.
Then there is nothing to be, nothing to do, and even supposed
separation and impurity is the lie it always was.
Then you put all the spirituality away, and laugh and laugh and laugh.
It's the damnedest thing.
Love,
Kevin
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2012 : 12:09:20 PM
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2012 : 2:26:32 PM
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I would be interested to know if Kevin's reply was helpful. It can be quite a slap in the face to realise we are still going around the Maze. I have resisted making the statement Kevin has made as I am never sure it's entirely productive.
I prefer, anytime you think you are then you aren't. |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2012 : 3:19:27 PM
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My answer in short:
I'm aware that awareness (haha!) isn't an experience.
One guy on another forum described the awareness type awakening beautifully: "there's reversal of location, from me experiencing it to now being it experiencing a me"
This is in fact, always the natural state of things. The simplest way to recognize what is true, is to retrace identification with a method of discrimination: Can I be this that I'm aware of? Can I be that, that I'm aware of?
At some point this reversal of location (it's not actually a happening, just a clear-seeing of what is) takes place.
From here on, as identification with body/mind ceases, we realize there are no problems, no enlightenment, nobody to become enlightened, just ever awake awareness.
I seem to be continually slipping in and "out of" this realization. I'm never really out of it, there's just clear and un-clear seeing. I'm not sure why this is happening.
-I personally have a sense though that there is "Further". I've heard of states beyond awakening to non-dual awareness described, just an awareness-type awakening is not kaivalya say, and of course, even when you've had several awakening experiences, there are still vasanas to be taken care of, conditioning to be eliminated... etc. None of it matters from the absolute view, but I take Yogani's view and follow the integration of both dual and non-dual perspectives into a view of the totality.
I also recently wrote a post about this on Jed McKenna's forum, the pointlessness of enlightenment as a goal, speaking from my own recent "on again/off again" awakening experiences:
What is enlightenment? Enlightenment is simply, what is true, now and always, it’s all there ever is. All there ever is, is non-dual awareness, intimately one with all the appearances within it. Like a blank, self-aware screen onto which a movie is projected.
Non-dual awareness is not a state or experience; it does not come and go. States come and go within non-dual awareness. You are either clearly seeing WHAT IS (non-dual awareness), or you have a belief system which is distorting the way you interpret what is arising. If forced to describe some sort of experience, I’d say the experience is one of utter neutrality and openness to whatever is experienced.
If non-dual awareness is all there ever is, what keeps you from recognizing it? What keeps you from recognizing it is every single belief and interpretation you have of WHAT IS through which mind filters WHAT IS. The primary erroneous beliefs being belief in a separate entity who somehow objectively exists, and that separate entity existing within an external world. Even the slightest modicum of examination reveals these beliefs as completely lacking any corroboration from our direct experience.
Desiring enlightenment is like being at home, in your bed, imagining you are somewhere else, and desiring to be at home, in your bed, and becoming unhappy you are not already there. If you’ve forgotten you are at home, in your bed, and your imagination has become so strong that it seems you are somewhere else, only the desire for truth and detached clear-seeing of what is (when you don’t believe your thoughts and imaginary ideas about it) will eliminate your state of delusion. This will be your ego’s final agenda.
The first mistake people make when they want enlightenment is to look for it. How can you look for that which is the very same awareness which is aware of any attempt to look? Instead of looking for it, learn to become aware of the awareness within which all looking appears.
Find out if anything ‘you’ are aware of is aware.
Find out if you are anything you are aware of.
Find out if awareness moves or changes.
Find out if you can say with certainty that anything exists independently of awareness.
Objective reality, physical bodies that exist independently of perceiving: belief in these things is a faith. Not at all disimilar from faith in God.
Are you the doer? Find out if there is a “you” who is apart from “actions” that occur. Lift a pen. A visual image of a hand on a pen changes. A sensation changes. Maybe a thought and sensation claim to be a doer. Behind this experience, is there some sort of doer, or simply awareness, witnessing?
Vasanas are simply tendencies to desire or be interested anything other than awareness itself. Once desire turns away from objects, which are all impermanent (ranging from subtle objects such as bliss and nice experiences to grosser objects such as material items or sexual desires) towards the timeless subject, truth may be clearly discriminated from not-truth, and liberation from delusion may proceed. Spiritual practices, such as meditation, yoga, kindness, honesty, being a decent person, help to eliminate vasanas, if used as supplementary practices with a focus on truth and awareness of awareness.
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Edited by - mr_anderson on Sep 05 2012 3:20:42 PM |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2012 : 4:21:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
My answer in short:
I'm aware that awareness (haha!) isn't an experience.
One guy on another forum described the awareness type awakening beautifully: "there's reversal of location, from me experiencing it to now being it experiencing a me"
This is in fact, always the natural state of things. The simplest way to recognize what is true, is to retrace identification with a method of discrimination: Can I be this that I'm aware of? Can I be that, that I'm aware of?
At some point this reversal of location (it's not actually a happening, just a clear-seeing of what is) takes place.
From here on, as identification with body/mind ceases, we realize there are no problems, no enlightenment, nobody to become enlightened, just ever awake awareness.
I seem to be continually slipping in and "out of" this realization. I'm never really out of it, there's just clear and un-clear seeing. I'm not sure why this is happening.
-I personally have a sense though that there is "Further". I've heard of states beyond awakening to non-dual awareness described, just an awareness-type awakening is not kaivalya say, and of course, even when you've had several awakening experiences, there are still vasanas to be taken care of, conditioning to be eliminated... etc. None of it matters from the absolute view, but I take Yogani's view and follow the integration of both dual and non-dual perspectives into a view of the totality.
I also recently wrote a post about this on Jed McKenna's forum, the pointlessness of enlightenment as a goal, speaking from my own recent "on again/off again" awakening experiences:
What is enlightenment? Enlightenment is simply, what is true, now and always, it’s all there ever is. All there ever is, is non-dual awareness, intimately one with all the appearances within it. Like a blank, self-aware screen onto which a movie is projected.
Non-dual awareness is not a state or experience; it does not come and go. States come and go within non-dual awareness. You are either clearly seeing WHAT IS (non-dual awareness), or you have a belief system which is distorting the way you interpret what is arising. If forced to describe some sort of experience, I’d say the experience is one of utter neutrality and openness to whatever is experienced.
If non-dual awareness is all there ever is, what keeps you from recognizing it? What keeps you from recognizing it is every single belief and interpretation you have of WHAT IS through which mind filters WHAT IS. The primary erroneous beliefs being belief in a separate entity who somehow objectively exists, and that separate entity existing within an external world. Even the slightest modicum of examination reveals these beliefs as completely lacking any corroboration from our direct experience.
Desiring enlightenment is like being at home, in your bed, imagining you are somewhere else, and desiring to be at home, in your bed, and becoming unhappy you are not already there. If you’ve forgotten you are at home, in your bed, and your imagination has become so strong that it seems you are somewhere else, only the desire for truth and detached clear-seeing of what is (when you don’t believe your thoughts and imaginary ideas about it) will eliminate your state of delusion. This will be your ego’s final agenda.
The first mistake people make when they want enlightenment is to look for it. How can you look for that which is the very same awareness which is aware of any attempt to look? Instead of looking for it, learn to become aware of the awareness within which all looking appears.
Find out if anything ‘you’ are aware of is aware.
Find out if you are anything you are aware of.
Find out if awareness moves or changes.
Find out if you can say with certainty that anything exists independently of awareness.
Objective reality, physical bodies that exist independently of perceiving: belief in these things is a faith. Not at all disimilar from faith in God.
Are you the doer? Find out if there is a “you” who is apart from “actions” that occur. Lift a pen. A visual image of a hand on a pen changes. A sensation changes. Maybe a thought and sensation claim to be a doer. Behind this experience, is there some sort of doer, or simply awareness, witnessing?
Vasanas are simply tendencies to desire or be interested anything other than awareness itself. Once desire turns away from objects, which are all impermanent (ranging from subtle objects such as bliss and nice experiences to grosser objects such as material items or sexual desires) towards the timeless subject, truth may be clearly discriminated from not-truth, and liberation from delusion may proceed. Spiritual practices, such as meditation, yoga, kindness, honesty, being a decent person, help to eliminate vasanas, if used as supplementary practices with a focus on truth and awareness of awareness.
Well! I think I won't be asking for any of your LONG responses then!
I only have a couple of comments; you are pretty on track:
"I seem to be continually slipping in and "out of" this realization. I'm never really out of it, there's just clear and un-clear seeing. I'm not sure why this is happening."
Yoga is about clutching onto experiences, while trying not to
clutch onto experiences. I know that's a cynical comment, but
I mean no disrespect to Yoga. It's merely a fact of human nature
that is how it tends to go.
The thing is, you don't need to be 'in this realization'. That is
grasping onto experience. Experience cannot be maintained.. that's
why 'cosmic consciousness' cannot be maintained. Anything that
'needs to be maintained' will vary.
You might find it helpful to ponder, how there is no NEED to
'keep looking at the self' .. I know that is heresy to Vedanta..
but really it's not.. you see, the KNOWLEDGE that you are the
self is what sets you fee, not the EXPERIENCE of being the self.
When this bit of ignorance drops off, then you CAN'T TURN OFF
being rooted in the KNOWLEDGE (not the experience) of being
Awareness... NOTHING can interfere with this..
Those moments when you formerly would have caught yourself and
gone "oh; I was out of grace, or out of Awareness' - those will
stop.. because there are NO MOMENTS when Awareness is not in full
control...
This is the power of knowledge of the self.. it wipes away ignorance,
which dulls the experience of life.. then you won't be tempted
to maintain fragile nirvikalpa samahdi and other silliness..
you'll simply be whole.
Now, regarding beyond "Awareness" .. you would have to be talking
about apparent STATES that are 'beyond Awareness'.
Freedom is not about states.. it's about not NEEDING states.
If there is something beyond absolute formless nothingness, which
is actually absolute fullness.. the ocean in which all waves form..
if there is something beyond BEING that as you go about your daily
life.. well.. that would be HELLA fascinating.
Love,
Kev
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2012 : 4:40:32 PM
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Well! I think I won't be asking for any of your LONG responses then! - LOL!
Thanks Kevin, that last post is definitely helpful. Still a few beliefs ticking away here saying what experience "should" or "shouldn't" be like. It will be good to look at that.
nice little quote from the ashtavakra gita:
1.12
You are Self—the Solitary Witness.
You are perfect, all-pervading, One.
You are free, desireless, forever still.
The universe is but a seeming in You.
1.13
Meditate on this: “I am Awareness alone--Unity itself.”
Give up the idea that you are separate, a person,
that there is within and without. 1.14
You have long been bound thinking:
“I am a person.”
Let the knowledge: “I am Awareness alone”
be the sword that frees you.
1.15
You are now and forever
free, luminous, transparent, still.
The practice of meditation
keeps one in bondage.
1.16
You are pure Consciousness—
the substance of the universe.
The universe exists within you.
Don’t be small-minded |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Sep 05 2012 4:45:54 PM |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2012 : 6:43:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_anderson
Well! I think I won't be asking for any of your LONG responses then! - LOL!
Thanks Kevin, that last post is definitely helpful. Still a few beliefs ticking away here saying what experience "should" or "shouldn't" be like. It will be good to look at that.
nice little quote from the ashtavakra gita:
1.12
You are Self—the Solitary Witness.
You are perfect, all-pervading, One.
You are free, desireless, forever still.
The universe is but a seeming in You.
1.13
Meditate on this: “I am Awareness alone--Unity itself.”
Give up the idea that you are separate, a person,
that there is within and without. 1.14
You have long been bound thinking:
“I am a person.”
Let the knowledge: “I am Awareness alone”
be the sword that frees you.
1.15
You are now and forever
free, luminous, transparent, still.
The practice of meditation
keeps one in bondage.
1.16
You are pure Consciousness—
the substance of the universe.
The universe exists within you.
Don’t be small-minded
Beautiful.
Some of those old dead dudes really got it.
Actually the last paragraph (1.16) is unfortunately worded,
but no need to go into that.
As for "Thanks Kevin, that last post is definitely helpful. Still a few beliefs ticking away here saying what experience "should" or "shouldn't" be like. It will be good to look at that."
Who is looking into this tendency? There is something to be done?
Really?
It does my heart good, your journey.
Love,
Kev
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