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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 1:59:29 PM
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Hello friends,
Some people claim that, before reincarnating again in this life, we all choose the experiences we are going to have, the family, the path we are going to tread, and so on.
All of you who have some memories or some experiences about this: do you believe this is the case or is it quite the opposite?
If that's the case, I can't see the role of karma here...
Before enlightenment, is there a way of discovering that programmed mission of one's self before it's too late? I read in a spiritualist book that most of us die without fulfilling that mission and that would be a real waste of time.
PS1) I'm not talking about general mission here; it's more about that personal stuff one has to do or fix if this theory is true.
PS2) I'm interested in personal experiences more than theories so, if you don't feel comfortable in sharing it in public, don't hesitate to send me a private message.
Thank you all. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 2:29:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Hello friends,
Some people claim that, before reincarnating again in this life, we all choose the experiences we are going to have, the family, the path we are going to tread, and so on.
All of you who have some memories or some experiences about this: do you believe this is the case or is it quite the opposite?
If that's the case, I can't see the role of karma here...
Before enlightenment, is there a way of discovering that programmed mission of one's self before it's too late? I read in a spiritualist book that most of us die without fulfilling that mission and that would be a real waste of time.
PS1) I'm not talking about general mission here; it's more about that personal stuff one has to do or fix if this theory is true.
PS2) I'm interested in personal experiences more than theories so, if you don't feel comfortable in sharing it in public, don't hesitate to send me a private message.
Thank you all.
I'll share my experience with you about 'karma'.
If you refuse to believe in tigers, and in fact refuse to even
see them, why then the tigers will get you!
That is karma.
Now, is there residue "skandas" that are stored in spiritual
matter at various levels?
Sure seems to be that way.
When some really nasty 'karma' that I HAVE BEEN DOGGING MYSELF
WITH (karma is NOT 'imposed') gets purified, I feel it and see
it. I see it as little black vapor, where individual bits are
turned in on themselves and like necrotic flesh. But that is
just 'scenery'
I'll share my observation with you about reincarnation:
There is no reincarnation, only co-incarnation.
The Self itself ;-) is timeless. The Self does emit cycles of
existence in waves however.
Part of these cycles results in vast seas of 'Atman' to arise,
and it is these 'Atman' we learn to hear as we become purified.
These 'Atman' are generally confused with the Self, which is
timeless and beyond our perception, except through the Atman,
which is not perfection, but may be viewed as a 'Son/Daughter
of God'.
This Atman powers MANY 'souls' which incarnate in time.
For the Atman, which is close to timeless, it's all in the
NOW.
This is why grace comes to us unexpectedly; these other 'souls'
learn lessons in time too, and enrich the Atman. Our little
Earthly lives sometimes benefit from 'the other guys work'.
This is my observation and experience. Of course we all need to
make our own discernment and not take someone else's view,
which for all you know is just a bit of conditioned consciousness
not reality.
As for missions, do "you" and your "spiritual advisors" map out
a plan for your life, and then you either succeed or fail?
I myself find that to be an unhelpful way to express things.
Live life as fully as you can, and then 'missions' fall away
as just conditioned consciousness.
I hope that my little response was of some value to you.
Love,
Kev |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 5:56:04 PM
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Hi Kevin,
I understand your point of view about karma, but I got completely lost with your idea of reincarnation; especially that Atman story powering many souls...
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
(...) As for missions, do "you" and your "spiritual advisors" map out a plan for your life, and then you either succeed or fail?
I myself find that to be an unhelpful way to express things.
So, according to your experience, that story about us choosing what to live in our next rebirth makes no sense, does it?
José.
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 6:53:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Hi Kevin,
I understand your point of view about karma, but I got completely lost with your idea of reincarnation; especially that Atman story powering many souls...
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
(...) As for missions, do "you" and your "spiritual advisors" map out a plan for your life, and then you either succeed or fail?
I myself find that to be an unhelpful way to express things.
So, according to your experience, that story about us choosing what to live in our next rebirth makes no sense, does it?
José.
We don't choose what to live; Life lives us.
We either get to enjoy the show, or we get pushed around by
forces we do not understand.
THIS is the life that matters. Live it like it is the only one;
but do not cling to it as if it was the only one ;-)
As for Atman;
humans (including myself) are myopic little creatures, who think
that the entire universe exists for our convenience;
that each BODY is powered by an individual 'spark of God'; only
that's not even close to true.
Think 'soul mates' and multiply by a trillion.
Love,
Kevin |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 8:35:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
Part of these cycles results in vast seas of 'Atman' to arise,
and it is these 'Atman' we learn to hear as we become purified.
These 'Atman' are generally confused with the Self, which is
timeless and beyond our perception, except through the Atman,
which is not perfection, but may be viewed as a 'Son/Daughter
of God'.
This Atman powers MANY 'souls' which incarnate in time.
For the Atman, which is close to timeless, it's all in the
NOW.
Great topic Jose, thanks for posting.
Kev, very interesting observation. However, when you say "Son/Daughter of God", is that not introducing duality?
My understanding is this - "karma" is largely misunderstood as just "cause and effect". It is more than this. When we perform an action and get attached to its result, with the resultant "doership" and "enjoyership" of the limited self, we accumulate "vasanas". Each of these has a flavor or karmic fragrance (vasana in Sanskrit is fragrance). All of this arises from desires. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna declares more than once that He (as in the Self/Brahman) does not do anything, as in "good" and "bad" things to sentient beings. It is all our choice, i.e., free will. In terms of reincarnation, the life we "choose" is driven by the specific set of vasanas that the individual self needs to exhaust by fulfilling certain desires during a specific lifetime. Thus, such a life and set of circumstances, including suffering, is "chosen" by us. Hence the emphasis in these teachings that desires are the root cause of all suffering.
When we work on ourselves in the ways we are, those vasanas (also called latent tendencies) are dissipated, as we learn to live in the now. With increasing identification with the Self and decreasing identity as the separate self, we become channels for the Self to work through us. As our individual will gives way to Divine Will, there is loss also of the "doership" and "enjoyership" in actions, and ultimately, of desires. With exhaustion of these latent tendencies, we are no longer compulsively driven by them. Thus, we are no longer in the snare of the cycle of birth and death. According to some teachings, after this, we can still choose to reincarnate, but this is not driven by the need to exhaust vasanas.
To me personally, there is no other theory that explains many inexplicable phenomena - phobias, children dying young, childhood prodigies and geniuses, etc. Or even vast differences in siblings born to the same parents (and therefore gene pool) and childhood environments.
Just sharing my limited understanding 
Love,
kami
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 10:13:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
Part of these cycles results in vast seas of 'Atman' to arise,
and it is these 'Atman' we learn to hear as we become purified.
These 'Atman' are generally confused with the Self, which is
timeless and beyond our perception, except through the Atman,
which is not perfection, but may be viewed as a 'Son/Daughter
of God'.
This Atman powers MANY 'souls' which incarnate in time.
For the Atman, which is close to timeless, it's all in the
NOW.
Great topic Jose, thanks for posting.
Kev, very interesting observation. However, when you say "Son/Daughter of God", is that not introducing duality?
My understanding is this - "karma" is largely misunderstood as just "cause and effect". It is more than this. When we perform an action and get attached to its result, with the resultant "doership" and "enjoyership" of the limited self, we accumulate "vasanas". Each of these has a flavor or karmic fragrance (vasana in Sanskrit is fragrance). All of this arises from desires. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna declares more than once that He (as in the Self/Brahman) does not do anything, as in "good" and "bad" things to sentient beings. It is all our choice, i.e., free will. In terms of reincarnation, the life we "choose" is driven by the specific set of vasanas that the individual self needs to exhaust by fulfilling certain desires during a specific lifetime. Thus, such a life and set of circumstances, including suffering, is "chosen" by us. Hence the emphasis in these teachings that desires are the root cause of all suffering.
When we work on ourselves in the ways we are, those vasanas (also called latent tendencies) are dissipated, as we learn to live in the now. With increasing identification with the Self and decreasing identity as the separate self, we become channels for the Self to work through us. As our individual will gives way to Divine Will, there is loss also of the "doership" and "enjoyership" in actions, and ultimately, of desires. With exhaustion of these latent tendencies, we are no longer compulsively driven by them. Thus, we are no longer in the snare of the cycle of birth and death. According to some teachings, after this, we can still choose to reincarnate, but this is not driven by the need to exhaust vasanas.
To me personally, there is no other theory that explains many inexplicable phenomena - phobias, children dying young, childhood prodigies and geniuses, etc. Or even vast differences in siblings born to the same parents (and therefore gene pool) and childhood environments.
Just sharing my limited understanding
Love,
kami
Duality is half of wholeness and not to be despised.
There are temporary actors in the grand drama that is life;
what is important is not that they exist, but what we can learn
from that existence, and how we may avoid making these 'features'
problems, by clinging to them.
Everything is a tool; everything is a lesson; and not even
ignorance is to be despised, as it too has a role in the
grand tapestry that is Life.
Love,
Kev
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 02:29:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Hello friends,
Some people claim that, before reincarnating again in this life, we all choose the experiences we are going to have, the family, the path we are going to tread, and so on.
All of you who have some memories or some experiences about this: do you believe this is the case or is it quite the opposite?
If that's the case, I can't see the role of karma here...
Before enlightenment, is there a way of discovering that programmed mission of one's self before it's too late? I read in a spiritualist book that most of us die without fulfilling that mission and that would be a real waste of time.
PS1) I'm not talking about general mission here; it's more about that personal stuff one has to do or fix if this theory is true.
PS2) I'm interested in personal experiences more than theories so, if you don't feel comfortable in sharing it in public, don't hesitate to send me a private message.
Thank you all.
Hi Jose,
In the context above, I'm not sure belief in that theory is useful if you want Yoga above all else. There are many eddies to get caught up in, and this is one. One of the deepest fears is the fear of death. Do we tell ourselves stories about the afterlife (& pre-life), so we don't have to face it? Birth and death are inextricable. Fearing death is fearing life. Stories might numb us to the fear, but do they remove it?
Why believe anything? Why not turn toward fear...go into it?
Also, I agree with what Kami said. Karma is a result of desire. Many desires are stored in and arise from the unconscious. With yoga practices/sadhana, latent impressions/samskaras/vasanas are removed, desires fall away, karma disappears.
For more on these and other aspects, see these pages (this lines up well ime):
http://www.swamij.com/mind-map.htm
http://www.swamij.com/karma.htm
quote:
PS2) I'm interested in personal experiences more than theories so, if you don't feel comfortable in sharing it in public, don't hesitate to send me a private message.
Regarding personal experience, I had a pre-birth vision of watching a carnival. Clowns, rides, people eating junk food... So, maybe my purpose is to experience carnivals.  ...just a dream. I don't care much for carnivals.
quote:
4.31 Then, by the removal of those veils of imperfection, there comes the experience of the infinite, and the realization that there is almost nothing to be known.
(tada sarva avarana mala apetasya jnanasya anantyat jneyam alpam)
http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-431.htm
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Edited by - chas on Jul 30 2012 03:22:45 AM |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 04:11:09 AM
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Hello All, hi Chas,
quote:
Originally posted by chas
(...) One of the deepest fears is the fear of death. Do we tell ourselves stories about the afterlife (& pre-life), so we don't have to face it? Birth and death are inextricable. Fearing death is fearing life. Stories might numb us to the fear, but do they remove it?
Why believe anything? Why not turn toward fear...go into it?
So for you, these stories about reincarnation or pre-life existence are just made up by frightened human beings? Well, there are so many cases out there for not considering them in a more serious way.
Apart from that, yes, I agree in what you say about karma.
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Edited by - Jose on Jul 30 2012 5:46:59 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 08:57:50 AM
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Hi Jose,
your question is very deep and depending on the viewing angle you can give many different "true" answers to it. In my experience even if you understand it through seeing the whole picture in an strongly expanded savikalpa samadhi state, somehow you can't make something out of it =P
The higher the understanding, the more and more it gets useless. This was my experience again and again many years ago. Since then I got very practical, means what makes me and everyone happy? What makes me and everyone feel more easy, more in love and peace. Daily pranayama and meditation does it here. It works and is good enough. Not that the mysteries of life do not unveil from time to time in their own way, but they are impractical anyway. The bliss-knowledge has its own purpose, like a great playfield of joy. Telling out of it is of no use for most except if it inspires for your own daily practice :)
Even if you knew your personal TODO - List for this life, would you do it? What if you don't like it? ;) Not knowing for me is much better here. It is like you watch a cool movie and someone sitting next to you tells you how the story will unfold =P I do not like spoilers, but I know some like them ^^
PS: a good combo - clearing questions + daily practice in parallel :) |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 12:47:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Holy
Hi Jose,
your question is very deep and depending on the viewing angle you can give many different "true" answers to it. In my experience even if you understand it through seeing the whole picture in an strongly expanded savikalpa samadhi state, somehow you can't make something out of it =P
The higher the understanding, the more and more it gets useless. This was my experience again and again many years ago. Since then I got very practical, means what makes me and everyone happy? What makes me and everyone feel more easy, more in love and peace. Daily pranayama and meditation does it here. It works and is good enough. Not that the mysteries of life do not unveil from time to time in their own way, but they are impractical anyway. The bliss-knowledge has its own purpose, like a great playfield of joy. Telling out of it is of no use for most except if it inspires for your own daily practice :)
Even if you knew your personal TODO - List for this life, would you do it? What if you don't like it? ;) Not knowing for me is much better here. It is like you watch a cool movie and someone sitting next to you tells you how the story will unfold =P I do not like spoilers, but I know some like them ^^
PS: a good combo - clearing questions + daily practice in parallel :)
BEAUTIFUL.
Everyone seems to want to know the 'infinite truth' before doing
the hard work, or instead of doing the hard work.
You want to know a secret?
As fully awake human beings we see MORE of the hard work that needs
to be done, not less, and that seeing doesn't make anything
easier.
So instead of doing just 'your own' (which is an illusion) hard
work, we do ALL the hard work, one small bit at a time.
Do you still want 'awareness of your mission' Jose ?
Love,
Kev |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 1:24:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
So for you, these stories about reincarnation or pre-life existence are just made up by frightened human beings?
Not saying there isn't reincarnation, not saying there is. I don't know what happens after the death of the body. Does anyone? Without quoting an outside source, by direct knowledge? I'd love to hear about it.
Does it work?
Here is the problem I see: mind seeks answers. Never satisfied with answers, it continuously seeks. In which direction does it seek? Question... answer...outward, outward...repeat. It's a great recipe for jumping from one belief to the next, avoiding yourself, and entertainment. But not so great for finding the answer. Many teachers are giving "answers". Why? On it goes... Meditation and inquiry are direct methods.
Inward. |
Edited by - chas on Jul 30 2012 1:27:01 PM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 1:36:08 PM
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enjoyed reading everybody 's replies...lots of wisdom indeed in ayp family
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 2:30:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chas
quote:
Originally posted by Jose
So for you, these stories about reincarnation or pre-life existence are just made up by frightened human beings?
Not saying there isn't reincarnation, not saying there is. I don't know what happens after the death of the body. Does anyone? Without quoting an outside source, by direct knowledge? I'd love to hear about it.
Does it work?
Here is the problem I see: mind seeks answers. Never satisfied with answers, it continuously seeks. In which direction does it seek? Question... answer...outward, outward...repeat. It's a great recipe for jumping from one belief to the next, avoiding yourself, and entertainment. But not so great for finding the answer. Many teachers are giving "answers". Why? On it goes... Meditation and inquiry are direct methods.
Inward.
Very true.
But part of being supportive is playing along.
ALL 'answers' are wrong and we all know that.
But many 'wrong answers' are useful.
If it wasn't for that, there would be no point in communicating
in any way.
Yes we can say "Live in the silence!" and "consult your inner guidance!".
Well those are good responses, but that just leaves a person
hanging. Those responses don't generate any flow at all.
Look at all the good 'flow' that was generated by this thread.
Various among us were touched by that flow, and a little 'gunk
was dislodged for the reading of this thread.
And yes, all the responses were 'wrong', including my own.
But don't despise the finger, even if it misses the moon
and points at something else. Even that 'something else'
generates flow.
Love,
Kev
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 4:16:32 PM
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Very beautiful responses, indeed!
No matter what the theory, ultimately it is all about how we live and act in the present moment, and if that is gradually shifting to more love, peace and tolerance, that is all that matters.
It is fun to delve into theories, of course..
Love,
kami |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 4:33:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
quote:
Originally posted by chas
quote:
Originally posted by Jose
So for you, these stories about reincarnation or pre-life existence are just made up by frightened human beings?
Not saying there isn't reincarnation, not saying there is. I don't know what happens after the death of the body. Does anyone? Without quoting an outside source, by direct knowledge? I'd love to hear about it.
Does it work?
Here is the problem I see: mind seeks answers. Never satisfied with answers, it continuously seeks. In which direction does it seek? Question... answer...outward, outward...repeat. It's a great recipe for jumping from one belief to the next, avoiding yourself, and entertainment. But not so great for finding the answer. Many teachers are giving "answers". Why? On it goes... Meditation and inquiry are direct methods.
Inward.
Very true.
But part of being supportive is playing along.
ALL 'answers' are wrong and we all know that.
But many 'wrong answers' are useful.
If it wasn't for that, there would be no point in communicating
in any way.
Yes we can say "Live in the silence!" and "consult your inner guidance!".
Well those are good responses, but that just leaves a person
hanging. Those responses don't generate any flow at all.
Look at all the good 'flow' that was generated by this thread.
Various among us were touched by that flow, and a little 'gunk
was dislodged for the reading of this thread.
And yes, all the responses were 'wrong', including my own.
But don't despise the finger, even if it misses the moon
and points at something else. Even that 'something else'
generates flow.
Love,
Kev
Hi Kev,
I'll try not to "throw the baby out with the bath water". The post was not directed towards you, or any one specifically. It's more about effectiveness. What works for what purpose. If someone is looking for the moon, great! Point to the moon. If its just a dream, we can have fun with it. If I give you a well thought out philosophy, have fun! No, I don't despise any fingers. Who is this finger to despise another? All in good fun. Gotta love Lila.
Always happy to see you.
Namaste.
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Edited by - chas on Jul 30 2012 4:39:15 PM |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 4:51:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chas
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
quote:
Originally posted by chas
quote:
Originally posted by Jose
So for you, these stories about reincarnation or pre-life existence are just made up by frightened human beings?
Not saying there isn't reincarnation, not saying there is. I don't know what happens after the death of the body. Does anyone? Without quoting an outside source, by direct knowledge? I'd love to hear about it.
Does it work?
Here is the problem I see: mind seeks answers. Never satisfied with answers, it continuously seeks. In which direction does it seek? Question... answer...outward, outward...repeat. It's a great recipe for jumping from one belief to the next, avoiding yourself, and entertainment. But not so great for finding the answer. Many teachers are giving "answers". Why? On it goes... Meditation and inquiry are direct methods.
Inward.
Very true.
But part of being supportive is playing along.
ALL 'answers' are wrong and we all know that.
But many 'wrong answers' are useful.
If it wasn't for that, there would be no point in communicating
in any way.
Yes we can say "Live in the silence!" and "consult your inner guidance!".
Well those are good responses, but that just leaves a person
hanging. Those responses don't generate any flow at all.
Look at all the good 'flow' that was generated by this thread.
Various among us were touched by that flow, and a little 'gunk
was dislodged for the reading of this thread.
And yes, all the responses were 'wrong', including my own.
But don't despise the finger, even if it misses the moon
and points at something else. Even that 'something else'
generates flow.
Love,
Kev
Hi Kev,
I'll try not to "throw the baby out with the bath water". The post was not directed towards you, or any one specifically. It's more about effectiveness. What works for what purpose. If someone is looking for the moon, great! Point to the moon. If its just a dream, we can have fun with it. If I give you a well thought out philosophy, have fun! No, I don't despise any fingers. Who is this finger to despise another? All in good fun. Gotta love Lila.
Always happy to see you.
Namaste.
I'm always happy to see everyone now; now that I can see people
and not just trip over my halo!
Love,
Kev |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 6:04:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chas
quote:
Originally posted by Jose
So for you, these stories about reincarnation or pre-life existence are just made up by frightened human beings?
Not saying there isn't reincarnation, not saying there is. I don't know what happens after the death of the body. Does anyone? Without quoting an outside source, by direct knowledge? I'd love to hear about it.
Hi Chas,
Yes, sometimes I feel the same way: 'I'd love to hear about it from direct knowledge', but MANY people talk about these things, about spirits, about NDE's and so on so, as Kami said here before: 'there is no other theory that explains many inexplicable phenomena - phobias, children dying young, childhood prodigies and geniuses, etc. Or even vast differences in siblings born to the same parents (and therefore gene pool) and childhood environments'
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 6:41:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kevincann
(...) Yes we can say "Live in the silence!" and "consult your inner guidance!".
Well those are good responses, but that just leaves a person
hanging. Those responses don't generate any flow at all.
Yes, I confess I feel that way reading most of the replies given.
Some of you sound like talking from your own cloud while I'm down here looking up not getting any fun.
Once a master/guru said (I don't remember who, sorry) that this was the reason why there had been just a few good masters in human history. Once they advance in their practice, the spiritual practitioner tends to forget what 'being an inexperienced person' is.
So, yes, I'm Jose and I know nothing 
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 8:43:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Hi Chas,
Yes, sometimes I feel the same way: 'I'd love to hear about it from direct knowledge', but MANY people talk about these things, about spirits, about NDE's and so on so, as Kami said here before: 'there is no other theory that explains many inexplicable phenomena - phobias, children dying young, childhood prodigies and geniuses, etc. Or even vast differences in siblings born to the same parents (and therefore gene pool) and childhood environments'
Hi Jose
Disclosure: I have no *direct* experience of reincarnation or "choosing". True that no other theory makes sense to me personally regarding those things that I mentioned. But that could also mean that I have not heard enough theories
Love,
kami |
Edited by - kami on Jul 30 2012 9:48:17 PM |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 9:00:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
quote:
Originally posted by Kevincann
(...) Yes we can say "Live in the silence!" and "consult your inner guidance!".
Well those are good responses, but that just leaves a person
hanging. Those responses don't generate any flow at all.
Yes, I confess I feel that way reading most of the replies given.
Some of you sound like talking from your own cloud while I'm down here looking up not getting any fun.
Once a master/guru said (I don't remember who, sorry) that this was the reason why there had been just a few good masters in human history. Once they advance in their practice, the spiritual practitioner tends to forget what 'being an inexperienced person' is.
So, yes, I'm Jose and I know nothing
I can relate to that. I practiced ayp and read the forums for two years before registering a username. And i've felt inferior many times.
Satsang is great. There is a great line in "A Course in Miracles" that says "We are all students and teachers to each other." This place is full of kind souls, here supporting you, no matter where you are.
quote:
A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master. While the master quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master poured the visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The professor watched the overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "It's overfull! No more will go in!" the professor blurted. "You are like this cup," the master replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."
quote:
So, yes, I'm Jose and I know nothing
Your cup is empty. Well done my friend.
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Edited by - chas on Jul 30 2012 9:01:47 PM |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 10:46:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
quote:
Originally posted by Kevincann
(...) Yes we can say "Live in the silence!" and "consult your inner guidance!".
Well those are good responses, but that just leaves a person
hanging. Those responses don't generate any flow at all.
Yes, I confess I feel that way reading most of the replies given.
Some of you sound like talking from your own cloud while I'm down here looking up not getting any fun.
Once a master/guru said (I don't remember who, sorry) that this was the reason why there had been just a few good masters in human history. Once they advance in their practice, the spiritual practitioner tends to forget what 'being an inexperienced person' is.
So, yes, I'm Jose and I know nothing
Excellent.
I wish I had been so wise for a very long time.
A practice like DM does really help get most people started, even
if you 'do it wrong'. It seems like many people have done it 'wrong'
for years and it works anyway! LOL. That's the mark of a great
practice I guess.
Some people just sit quietly, in 'their own funk' and 'limitation'
and just watch it and not struggle. Just that is useful.
We are all so busy to run here and run there, and 'accomplish'
something.
But like other wonderful posts in this thread, we have to stop
piling crap on top of crap, before we can even dream of seeing
what's hiding underneath it all.
Even if you don't believe in anything 'spiritual' at all, that is
fine; you'd find the 'baby nature' down there, if nothing else
actually existed, and babies have a good time and let it all
hang out. It would be hard to go wrong having that kind of
consciousness as a starting point.
Well, good luck my friend.
Really, there are things we can do to relax; relaxation is
a great part of 'purification'. Just learn to relax those
thoughts, emotions, muscles and what not; there's nothing
fancy about that, is there?
Love,
Kev |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2012 : 04:31:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Hi Jose
Disclosure: I have no *direct* experience of reincarnation or "choosing". True that no other theory makes sense to me personally regarding those things that I mentioned. But that could also mean that I have not heard enough theories
Hi Kami:
I know, I know. I just said that I agree with your thinking
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Edited by - Jose on Jul 31 2012 04:36:50 AM |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2012 : 04:40:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chas
I can relate to that. I practiced ayp and read the forums for two years before registering a username. And i've felt inferior many times.
Satsang is great. There is a great line in "A Course in Miracles" that says "We are all students and teachers to each other." This place is full of kind souls, here supporting you, no matter where you are.
(...)
Your cup is empty. Well done my friend.
Hi Chas,
Thank you for your supportive words |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2012 : 06:05:29 AM
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I have read your original post several times and I still can't quite figure out what you are asking.
We are really just walking around with our eyes closed bumping into things and trying to make sense of everything. This is even apparent while looking for enlightenment. We grope blindly around trying to see the light while keeping our eyes tightly shut. We imagine we find enlightenment, sometimes we might get flashes of light against the eyelids and that gives us a hope of seeing beyond the darkness.
Karma is what happens behind the eyelids with the intention of making the eyelids open that's all. It's one big long story leading to that opening.
As we go through these lives we spend lots of time creating concentric shields around who we are. From the very moment our parents tell us not to cry, we are on that path of wall building, to create ever stronger defences to protect ourselves from ourselves. We fear who we really are, our fragility and weakness Is what we try and hide. We want to project a false picture to others and so we delude ourselves. It's then that Karma comes knocking, it shows us our folly, lands us on our behinds, rips away the carefully built walls to expose the soft inner core.
Meditation and practice should be aimed at exposing this core, if we attempt to use it to create other walls, or ego bolstering powers we are defeating the purpose. Karma is the antithesis, it is the destroyer, the exposer of the lies we have created around us.
It doesn't matter if we believe in reincarnation or choices of life, those things all occur behind the closed eyes. To open those eyes we must first open ourselves, this is what practice of any kind is about. Freedom isn't an object or a feeling, it is the complete lack of an object or feeling.
You cannot make up for things you have done, there is no making up for past actions because they are simply your inner Guru projected on the world you sense. They are it's manifestations trying to get you to see properly.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2012 : 10:14:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
You cannot make up for things you have done, there is no making up for past actions because they are simply your inner Guru projected on the world you sense. They are it's manifestations trying to get you to see properly.
But one must also learn to accept, take responsibility and let go of those actions.
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2012 : 6:11:39 PM
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Hi Karl,
Thank you for your post.
quote:
Originally posted by karl
I have read your original post several times and I still can't quite figure out what you are asking.
I'll try to highlight the main points:
quote:
Originally posted by Jose
(...) All of you who have some memories or some experiences about this: do you believe this is the case or is it quite the opposite?
If that theory is true...
quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Before enlightenment, is there a way of discovering that programmed mission of one's self before it's too late?
(…) PS2) I'm interested in personal experiences more than theories
Thanks again. |
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