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Namath
350 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 27 2012 : 3:17:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
There is a difference in perspective. You have a sense of separate anger, because of a sense of you being separate from the world you experience around you. Anger has become your own personal domain. Instead, anger is impersonal. A flower is not its scent, or it's colour, or it's structure, so what then is a flower ? What then is anger ?
In no way does this prevent the experience of a flower, or the experience of anger. Instead they take their rightful place within unity.
This isn't something that can be understood intellectually, for everyone there is a time when this realisation happens, that the self is not substantial and therefore everything sensed is also insubstantial. Then you can contribute as you see fit, indulge where you want, protect , comfort, love where, when and how you want without disturbance. That's very different from somehow thinking of it as not feeling anger, it's simply a different world entirely.
yes…I'm aware of all that.When the time is right :).
but for sentences you mentioned before such as "just perhaps you might learn to see that it is that same anger that causes those horrific acts you witness externally"…not unacceptable!!
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Yes, I feel anger- not nearly as much as i used to. I did backbands and contortions and anger came out for years
all during the work day. The anger I felt had nothing to do with what was going on at the time. So I know my anger was stored. Now it's rare, and i have to give it all of my attention and all my senses for it to go away.
I haven't done back bends for a while; I am curious if there is more in there...
 …wish that can work for me ... but with my extreme body flexibility…I won't feel a backbend 
thank you dear ones for your remarkable comments and your wisdom.Glad to share all this.
Salam |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2012 : 7:48:10 PM
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| Different people store emotions in different places in the body. |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2012 : 04:47:06 AM
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Morning Etherfish;
From my experience....there's no relation at all.I'm naturally born very flexible to the extend my parents doubted something wrong with my bones...because I would twist in all direction as a baby...Still have this flexibility ...must have been in circus in previous life ...If this relation is true,you would see me with zero anger which is not the case.
All Love. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2012 : 05:56:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Namath
yes…I'm aware of all that.When the time is right :).
but for sentences you mentioned before such as "just perhaps you might learn to see that it is that same anger that causes those horrific acts you witness externally"…not unacceptable!!
Did you mean you thought it was not acceptable ? Otherwise that was a double negative which suggests you agree?
I think you meant unacceptable.
When you saw this event, one of your reactions was to oppose the violence with more violence, to "show him how painful a kick was" .That isn't a different violence, it's the same. It is anger caused by fear and fear caused by lack of understanding. There isn't a 'right' there is simply an action and the response to it.
During the Irish troubles there were several children killed by soldiers. What was not disclosed was that children would often run up to troop carriers and open up the door so that gunmen could rake the inside with gunfire. The soldiers that fired the shots were often responding to those doors being opened. They were frightened. Who was to blame, the politicians, the soldiers, the children, the guns, the bullets ?
Once the separation is dissolved you will see that it is the same anger, the same violence, the same fear., they just manifest in different ways within the big picture. Like an ocean full of waves and currents. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2012 : 07:20:37 AM
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Namath,
I'm jealous of your flexibility!
I know a girl like that, and she is amazing. At halloween she puts on all black and can do a bridge and move like a scary spider.
quote:
Originally posted by Namath
Morning Etherfish;
From my experience....there's no relation at all.........If this relation is true,you would see me with zero anger which is not the case.
All Love.
Yes, I have no idea if you have stored anger or not. That is only one aspect that is huge for me.
There are other aspects also, like the inclination to indulge in anger when you see other people doing it, etc. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jul 28 2012 07:23:28 AM |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2012 : 10:28:01 AM
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@karl....you convinced me,i might be violent although i've never hurt anyone before who knows!n the little girl who was kicked is very violent too.
Not really!
As a matter of fact,you confuse me....one time you say there's no reason ,
...another time you say you are the reason.
Last time we were discussing life as a dream, a rose appeared in front of me for sometimes.this discussion i was disconnected for sometimes while sitting with family....there n not there.n last night i dreamt i killed a man without blinking even...i can't kill!
I don't wish to continue discussion anymore.too much messing with the head.
Thank you for what u shared so far.
@ Etherfish....no need to be jealous as i said can't see any good use of it....now you've given me an idea with the spider....and spiders are cute not scary.so are ants :)
hey Jose apology for taking this discussion in totally different direction.it's over now.
Back to you :)
[img]icon_heart.gif[/img]
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2012 : 11:05:23 AM
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Your wish is my command  |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2012 : 12:29:26 PM
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| "spiders are cute not scary"- depends on how you move! In the bridge position you can do very un-human moves. |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 04:34:45 AM
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Hi Showup
First of all, thank you for your post.
I understand everything you say here; the problem is that I am not talking about this. I am probably awful trying to convey my ideas.
Following your 'Person X' metaphor, when he is acting as a king, he will probably not suffer from hunger or from cold/hot weather, etc like a beggar will, but he will suffer from some illness sooner or later, he will have to suffer the death of a beloved one, etc. because there is suffering in the whole play, whether he is a king, a beggar, a ghost or a businessman.
quote:
Originally posted by showup
(...) It would have been even worst before this universe created…Vedas says that there was One alone without a second…even when the component of mind did not existed in Him… the whole space and time did not existed…there was just The Supreme Self alone and Nothing else existed…suddenly when He became conscious of Himself as “I”…there was Universal Aloneness… became a sort of source for a Universal Dissatisfaction which is the cause for the creation of this universe.
Right! Universal Dissatisfaction, I think that's very similar to the Buddha's 'THERE IS SUFFERING'.
But this story by the Vedas tells me that that god was not complete. The moment 'he' becomes conscious of himself and he feels alone tells me that he is not a supreme god. He can be some god, but not the GOD CREATOR OF ALL THAT EXISTS. This god is the one degenerating here.
quote:
Originally posted by showup
Other than this He is not responsible for our pain and misery. It is just we who are responsible for it.
I don't agree. The creator of the workings of the universe is the only responsible here. I can be responsible for my life, for the way I live it, for adding suffering to the pain I already feel... but not for the physical pain that is already there. I'm not responsible for the pain caused when I can't get my stomach full; for the coldness I feel when I have nothing to cover my body with; for the new pains I'm discovering as my body is getting older.
José. |
Edited by - Jose on Jul 29 2012 04:49:49 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 05:02:43 AM
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There was awareness without the feeling of 'I' . As we wake from sleep, so ithe 'I' is born. When the 'I' is born then simultaneously the 'am' is created. The creator and created are manifest at the same time.
God is in the awareness, in the I, in the I am. God is in your nature and in everything you sense. God cries, laughs and sings with you, is in pain with you, dies with you. This is the universal expression of creator and created. One does not exist without the other, but both are unifiied. God is not separate, you are never parted from God, ever.
God is not an expression of Man, or Man an expression of God. The analogy 'God blew his breath into the clay' is not accidental. It is one and the same, therefore you cannot look for God to save you from yourself, only you can do that and are doing so day by day.
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 08:33:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Following your 'Person X' metaphor, when he is acting as a king, he will probably not suffer from hunger or from cold/hot weather, etc like a beggar will, but he will suffer from some illness sooner or later, he will have to suffer the death of a beloved one, etc. because there is suffering in the whole play, whether he is a king, a beggar, a ghost or a businessman.
No one disputes existence of never ending cyclic pain and misery in phenomenal world which will stop only when we exit the incarnation altogether. As a matter of fact even dream world has pain and misery. But we don’t give much importance to the pain felt in dream, because when we wake up from dreamy sleep we know the dream we had was not real, I mean the dreamy events have no effect in real life. Similarly, the cyclic pain and misery one undergoes in this world has no meaning once (s)he attains enlightenment, because by that time (s)he knows the whole phenomenal world is not real, as it is just a projection that arise as a result of ignorance. Until that time arrives the cyclic pain that seemingly appears to be real is unavoidable.
quote:
…But this story by the Vedas tells me that that god was not complete. The moment 'he' becomes conscious of himself and he feels alone tells me that he is not a supreme god. He can be some god, but not the GOD CREATOR OF ALL THAT EXISTS. This god is the one degenerating here.
In deed you did catch the point here…very intelligent. The problem is even the self-realized souls who mixed with Supreme Self without any difference whatsoever like milk mixing with milk could not feel what Supreme Self felt (if at all any!?!) prior to creation of this universe. Time did not exist prior to creation and hence one could not go back in time. They were able to witness the events by traveling back in time until to the point the time itself exists i.e. the very moment the creation initiated. It is only the Supreme Self Who knows, why and what He felt if at all any, prior to creation. He who projected it, He knows it, or does He also not know, says the Nâsadîya Sûkta of Rig-Veda, in the concluding portion in an ecstatic mood. For the same reason some schools of Hinduism like the Samkhya do not even believe the existence of God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya
quote:
…The creator of the workings of the universe is the only responsible here…
At creation there was no karma. Karma was accumulated by jeva after creation only. We undergo pain just because of karma. So, we can’t attribute this to the Supreme Self. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 09:20:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
But this story by the Vedas tells me that that god was not complete. The moment 'he' becomes conscious of himself and he feels alone tells me that he is not a supreme god. He can be some god, but not the GOD CREATOR OF ALL THAT EXISTS. This god is the one degenerating here.
There is a problem with this logic.
The story was written by humans, who have feelings of being lonely, and try to portray God as if he is human.
All words are made up to describe things that we know in this world. When they are used to talk about things outside the known world, imperfect metaphors and parables must be used. These are not exact descriptions, but only allude to the truth by talking about something that is already known.
So maybe God was not lonely at all; maybe he just thought it would be cool to create other beings. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 12:36:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
There was awareness without the feeling of 'I' . As we wake from sleep, so ithe 'I' is born. When the 'I' is born then simultaneously the 'am' is created. The creator and created are manifest at the same time.
God is in the awareness, in the I, in the I am. God is in your nature and in everything you sense. God cries, laughs and sings with you, is in pain with you, dies with you. This is the universal expression of creator and created. One does not exist without the other, but both are unifiied. God is not separate, you are never parted from God, ever.
God is not an expression of Man, or Man an expression of God. The analogy 'God blew his breath into the clay' is not accidental. It is one and the same, therefore you cannot look for God to save you from yourself, only you can do that and are doing so day by day.
Perfect.
Yes, the ocean always knows the drop.
At some point the drop sees it is the ocean.
Love,
Kev |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 1:07:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by showup
No one disputes existence of never ending cyclic pain and misery in phenomenal world which will stop only when we exit the incarnation altogether. As a matter of fact even dream world has pain and misery.
That was exactly what I was trying to bring up since the very beginning: Even when this 'reality' could be a dream, why does it have to be a nightmare if that god you all talk about is LOVE? Where is the divine love here?
quote:
Originally posted by showup
(...) But we don’t give much importance to the pain felt in dream, because when we wake up from dreamy sleep we know the dream we had was not real, I mean the dreamy events have no effect in real life.
I think it matters little if they have no real effect in REAL life. While one is dreaming it, for 1 hour or billions of lives, the whole picture is cruel for we stupid gullible beings who are unable to see that all is a drama played in a universal theatre.
quote:
Originally posted by showup
(...) Similarly, the cyclic pain and misery one undergoes in this world has no meaning once (s)he attains enlightenment, because by that time (s)he knows the whole phenomenal world is not real, as it is just a projection that arise as a result of ignorance. Until that time arrives the cyclic pain that seemingly appears to be real is unavoidable.
Yes, and that's where I can't see any divine love in it. It's like getting into a terror theme park for thousand of years, not knowing all is staged. You will only discover what it is all about once you get through the exit after billions of lives lived in horror. I doubt I will feel any grateful at the end of the game.
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 1:18:01 PM
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Hi Etherfish,
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
There is a problem with this logic.
The story was written by humans, who have feelings of being lonely, and try to portray God as if he is human.
All words are made up to describe things that we know in this world. When they are used to talk about things outside the known world, imperfect metaphors and parables must be used. These are not exact descriptions, but only allude to the truth by talking about something that is already known.
So maybe God was not lonely at all; maybe he just thought it would be cool to create other beings.
Yes, I totally agree with you. And for the same reason I don't think that god 'thought it would be cool to create' anything.
When people say god is with you, s/he loves you, watches you, takes care of you, etc, I believe this way of thinking's kind of childish. We can't understand him/her with the tools we are given in this physical realm.
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 1:20:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Namath
(...)
hey Jose apology for taking this discussion in totally different direction.it's over now.
Back to you :)
Don't worry, Namath, after all this is also your thread since you could understand my point from the start |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 8:29:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
That was exactly what I was trying to bring up since the very beginning: Even when this 'reality' could be a dream, why does it have to be a nightmare if that god you all talk about is LOVE? Where is the divine love here?
Well, one school of philosophy claim we will be unable to feel God or His love as long as there is ignorance (maya) as we can't see the sun when there is cloud. This also reproducibly and repeatedly witnessed by several self-realized who were at the caliber of winning death. As I mentioned earlier, there are other schools of philosophies as well. You can obviously pick whatever you feel comfortable with or which seems to be more apt for your spiritual development. |
Edited by - showup on Jul 29 2012 8:59:55 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2012 : 10:44:10 PM
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I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about human love and feelings, and I think they can sometimes lead us astray so we can't see the "big picture".
There are quite a few third world countries where people are starving to death. Big philanthropic organizations moved in and bring them food and clothing. Now they are having 10 or 12 kids per family because they know their kids will be fed. They are destroying the environment in their country, wiping out all wildlife and trees, all in the name of "caring" and "love".
I think there is something bigger than our human love, although that may seem very cold hearted to most. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2012 : 4:05:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about human love and feelings, and I think they can sometimes lead us astray so we can't see the "big picture".
There are quite a few third world countries where people are starving to death. Big philanthropic organizations moved in and bring them food and clothing. Now they are having 10 or 12 kids per family because they know their kids will be fed. They are destroying the environment in their country, wiping out all wildlife and trees, all in the name of "caring" and "love".
I think there is something bigger than our human love, although that may seem very cold hearted to most.
Humans may well watch their species go extinct as a result of all
the human emotions, even as you suggest, apparently noble ones.
I understand your position very well.
That said, we are all visitors here, 1 heart beat away from death.
There may be no rescuing humans from themselves; that remains
to be seen.
Now here is a good example:
the very same thing you need to have a healthy kundalni, at least
when kundalni hits the 2nd or 3rd stage is 'continence'. Which
means you keep it in your pants and don't even play with it.
If humans as a whole learned the importance of certain 'truths'
that are hidden from most, they would keep it in their pants
and not only would the individual be lifted up, but the entire
species.
But how do we get from here to there? That is the unanswered
question.
We could put all this 'hidden' information about Kundalni out there;
and would that help the problems of the world?
Well the conventional wisdom is that people would stop doing their
vital practices, without which they get lost in delusion, and would
head for the 'goodies' straight off and hurt themselves.
Yet this knowledge should be out there.
Even the 'flow' is not clear sometimes.
I love your posts; they are so honest and to the point and important.
Love,
Kev |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2012 : 04:00:46 AM
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Despite all the "rational" arguments and objections to what is - existence is suffering, how could God allow such things?!, etc. - nonetheless it is possible to be in a space where you know Divine Love as the ultimate reality. When you experience it, the arguments don't matter anymore. You just become a channel for That to flow into the world in and through you.
By the way, I agree with Ether - human "love"/philanthropy although well intentioned can sometimes have bad consequences. I hope I am not a cruel bitch for saying this, but I personally will not support charities which oppose or fail to provide birth control as one of their services. Otherwise we are just perpetuating the misery. Discrimination is necessary in the larger scheme of things.
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2012 : 02:30:15 AM
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Hello Karl and All;
I've been reconsidering your opinion and my anger towards the little girl incident.
I admit it was a double anger one for her and one for me.For I've been through a similar situation in life and I saw myself in her.
Anger and evil took over me that day.My mind was set to give that guy a knock out on his jaw (I never used that punch before except in training with my coach whom I know can defend himself and not get hurt)….and when I could not reach him and that light being appeared,I not only asked the light being to protect the girl but to break the guy's leg as well!
When I calmed down,I regretted that and prayed for the guy's protection for I don't really want to hurt him…just to discipline him so he doesn't hurt that girl again.
Although my incident was long time ago and I thought I don't carry any hard feeling -especially the guy apologized and in spite of me pissing him off in many situations to see if he'll react the same way…he just walked away.- I forgave in words long time ago but my heart didn't really forgive till now.
I thank God that I never reached the guy and for the opportunity to relive the situation without any interference from my part…& yes what i witnessed on the outside was part of what was inside….It's clear now my ego is a big mess without divine intervention.
Very grateful .
[img]icon_heart.gif[/img]
Love.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2012 : 04:06:20 AM
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| Very beautiful Namath. Thank you for sharing those insights. |
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Divine love?
