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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 12:15:27 PM
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Hi all.
In Vivekananda's Patanjali Yoga Sutras, this yoga master says:
quote:
See how, from nebulæ, the sun, moon, and stars, are produced; then they dissolve, and go back to nebulæ. The same is being done everywhere. The plant takes material from the earth, dissolves, and gives it back. Every form in this world is taken out of corresponding atoms and goes back to those atoms. It cannot be that the same law acts differently in different places. Law is uniform. Nothing is more certain than that. If this is the law of nature, so it is with thought; it will dissolve and come back to its origin; whether we will it or not we shall have to return to the origin, which is called God or Absolute. We all came from God, and we are all bound to go to God, call that God by any name you like; call Him God, or Absolute or Nature, or by any hundred names you like, the fact remains the same. “From whom all this universe comes out, in whom all that is born lives, and to whom all returns.” This is one fact that is certain. Nature works on the same plan; what is being worked out in one sphere is being worked out in millions of spheres. What you see with the planets, the same will it be with this earth, with men and with the stars.
This natural law makes a lot of sense to me BUT, if this is true, I can't help but seen this world, this realm, as a cruel one. If after been born one has to die, why there has to be so much suffering, so much pain in the process? But not only in human realm. Animals, insects, plants also have to experience suffering in form of illness, hunger, death...
Human beings are born once and again into this world without remembering their wrongdoings of previous lives, being doomed to repeat the same mistakes on and on for hundred, thousands of lives... Of course, 'god' is not in a hurry here but how comes that the nature is not more gentle with us 'suffering beings'? Do you think this comes out of love?
And if you want to accelerate the process of going back to the source by keeping a sadhana then you have to suffer even more because you have to deprive yourself of the things that you are used to: type of food, resting time, old habits, etc.
Most of you talk about divine love but I don't see any good in this divine game, especially if after all this, after the final dissolution in God, one (or something) has to go back to degeneration to start all over again this cyclic game.
I know, all this is gibberish talk, after all we are unable to understand the cosmic laws with this tiny limited brain but I'd love to see a more positive view in all this thing called LIFE.
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 2:02:46 PM
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Here come some more perspectives.
(1) Why does James Bond has to suffer again and again in each movie fighting with all those people? Why is he allowed to have at least one woman per movie to enjoy? Why do you like watching James Bond? ;) If you don't like the movie, just go out of the cinema, and if you forgot the way out, then just relax and let the movie unfold. It will end sooner than later and then everything lights up and you can walk out easily. So just enjoy while it plays and next time chose a different movie, perhaps one with less up and downs :)
(2) Why do the molecular cities of food have to break down so agressively by the gastric acid, each inhabitants losing family members of other city parts never to see again? Why does other beings have to be killed so instantly by the white blood cells, are they not allowed to enter and live within the body of god?
(3) Why does the wind blow and why is the banana curved and not straight?
The why has been discussed forever and after the discussion people will have some delicous meal together and enjoy. Thats how it goes =P Why not?
If you don't accept why things happen how they happen, if there is not enough love to your liking, then my friend BE YOURSELF the LOVE. To decrease suffering, accept things as they happen and parallely grow in LOVE. The Love is hidden, some practice and it shines through, some more practice and it shines even more clearly and strongly. I don't think one can do better than this, yet still we art part of the movie that looks way more "real" than the Avatar in 3D =) Some like watching in 2D only and some would rather become one with the actors in the movie. We managed to become one with the actor, at least it looks like so. If you look very closely you can see it is not. And if you are skilled you can remain the watcher untouched by the movie but fully within it. Enjoying its ups, mids and downs yet free to eat popcorn and giggle with the producer at the same time.
Don't be cheated my friend! I'm with you :) |
Edited by - Holy on Jul 22 2012 2:33:58 PM |
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 4:17:31 PM
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Coming from a Kabbalistic viewpoint, I see physical manifestation as a way for God to experience not-Godness (and viewed through this prism, Jesus' cry on the cross of "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" may just have been the pivotal point of his existence here on earth).
For quite a while, I had been grumbling internally about how manifested creatures - man, specifically - had to do all the dirty hard grunt work for the evolution of the cosmos and Divinity. Sure, it's easy to be all love n light when you're floating around in endless bodiless bliss, but WHAT ABOUT US?? HUH???
Then it came to me: if Divinity - limitless Light - was going to filter down, densify, to a point where God could no longer recognize Itself, what would it look like? Well, um... It would look just like us. WE are God trying to work out Otherness, we are Divinity's expression of itself in the densest of worlds.
Doesn't stop me from feeling resentful on occasion that I'm handling the poopy end of the stick, cosmically speaking ;) And that resentment signals to me that I need to reconnect to the infinite, so I may know myself as much larger than just my physical expression.
My advice: use your samyama time to open your heart to gladness, gratitude, and the Infinite. It's VERY hard at first, but you'll eventually find new dimensions opening to you. It makes the path MUCH easier :) |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 5:04:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Holy
Here come some more perspectives.
(1) Why does James Bond has to suffer again and again in each movie fighting with all those people? Why is he allowed to have at least one woman per movie to enjoy? Why do you like watching James Bond? ;) If you don't like the movie, just go out of the cinema, and if you forgot the way out, then just relax and let the movie unfold. It will end sooner than later and then everything lights up and you can walk out easily. So just enjoy while it plays and next time chose a different movie, perhaps one with less up and downs :)
(2) Why do the molecular cities of food have to break down so agressively by the gastric acid, each inhabitants losing family members of other city parts never to see again? Why does other beings have to be killed so instantly by the white blood cells, are they not allowed to enter and live within the body of god?
(3) Why does the wind blow and why is the banana curved and not straight?
The why has been discussed forever and after the discussion people will have some delicous meal together and enjoy. Thats how it goes =P Why not?
If you don't accept why things happen how they happen, if there is not enough love to your liking, then my friend BE YOURSELF the LOVE. To decrease suffering, accept things as they happen and parallely grow in LOVE. The Love is hidden, some practice and it shines through, some more practice and it shines even more clearly and strongly. I don't think one can do better than this, yet still we art part of the movie that looks way more "real" than the Avatar in 3D =) Some like watching in 2D only and some would rather become one with the actors in the movie. We managed to become one with the actor, at least it looks like so. If you look very closely you can see it is not. And if you are skilled you can remain the watcher untouched by the movie but fully within it. Enjoying its ups, mids and downs yet free to eat popcorn and giggle with the producer at the same time.
Don't be cheated my friend! I'm with you :)
I enjoyed your response Holy. I enjoy people who are comfortable
in their own skin, and comfortable with reality just as it is.
What's interesting about spiritual practice, is that you start
out suffering and looking to escape from the world. Then you
get a hint of something transcendent; then you become obsessed
with the transcendent and actually worse off than before you
started the journey; then near the end of the first phase of
the journey, all the gobbly gook spirituality falls away,
and everything, 'spiritual' or 'not spiritual' is no more
complicated or less pleasant than eating popcorn.
;-)
Kev |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 5:05:28 PM
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Hi Holy,
I'd like to clarify that even when it might sound a little like whining, my first post came out of compassion that I feel for others less fortunate than me.
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
(1) …So just enjoy while it plays and next time chose a different movie, perhaps one with less up and downs :)
Like one can chose it. When you find the remote control, will you pass it? ;)
quote:
(2) Why do the molecular cities of food have to break down so agressively by the gastric acid, each inhabitants losing family members of other city parts never to see again? Why does other beings have to be killed so instantly by the white blood cells, are they not allowed to enter and live within the body of god?
Have they already discover that the inhabitants of those molecular cities have any feeling?
quote:
(3) Why does the wind blow and why is the banana curved and not straight?
If the banana is curved or straight does not affect anybody's feeling, does it?
Thank you for your post :)
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Edited by - Jose on Jul 22 2012 6:07:17 PM |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 5:17:53 PM
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Hi Wigswet,
quote:
Originally posted by wigswest
(...) For quite a while, I had been grumbling internally about how manifested creatures - man, specifically - had to do all the dirty hard grunt work for the evolution of the cosmos and Divinity. Sure, it's easy to be all love n light when you're floating around in endless bodiless bliss, but WHAT ABOUT US?? HUH???
Yeah, you get me ;)
quote:
Then it came to me: if Divinity - limitless Light - was going to filter down, densify, to a point where God could no longer recognize Itself, what would it look like? Well, um... It would look just like us. WE are God trying to work out Otherness, we are Divinity's expression of itself in the densest of worlds.
Yes, that thought has crossed my mind also but, does 'HE' have to experience it on and on in that cyclic game that Eastern philosophy talks about?
quote:
Doesn't stop me from feeling resentful on occasion that I'm handling the poopy end of the stick, cosmically speaking ;)
Hahaha, I like it, it's so true ;)
quote:
My advice: use your samyama time to open your heart to gladness, gratitude, and the Infinite. It's VERY hard at first, but you'll eventually find new dimensions opening to you. It makes the path MUCH easier :)
I hope so but sometimes, when I see this suffering (other's especially) so close I can't help but thinking: is it worth it?
Thank you for your post :) |
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 5:52:56 PM
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"I can't help but thinking: is it worth it?"
Unfortunately, it seems to be part of our job description as poopystick-holding grunts that we can't have any definitive answers to questions like this ;)
We have to choose our soul's course with our hearts, ultimately, and not our heads; and hope, as I do, that each one of us that bootstraps themselves into a higher plane of existence, makes it just that much easier for our brothers and sisters to follow suit :)
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Edited by - wigswest on Jul 22 2012 6:05:34 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 6:12:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Hi Holy,
I'd like to clarify that even when it might sound a little like whining, my first post came out of compassion that I feel for others less fortunate than me.
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
(1) …So just enjoy while it plays and next time chose a different movie, perhaps one with less up and downs :)
Like one can chose it. When you find the remote control, will you pass it? ;)
quote:
(2) Why do the molecular cities of food have to break down so agressively by the gastric acid, each inhabitants losing family members of other city parts never to see again? Why does other beings have to be killed so instantly by the white blood cells, are they not allowed to enter and live within the body of god?
Have they already discover that the inhabitants of those molecular cities have any feeling?
quote:
(3) Why does the wind blow and why is the banana curved and not straight?
If the banana is curved or straight does not affect anybody's feeling, does it?
Thank you for your post :)
It's fine that you have compassion, just go with the flow. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 11:26:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wigswest
if Divinity - limitless Light - was going to filter down, densify, to a point where God could no longer recognize Itself, what would it look like? Well, um... It would look just like us. WE are God trying to work out Otherness, we are Divinity's expression of itself in the densest of worlds.
Beautifully said, wigs
There is also the perspective that before we incarnated into this world, that our Spirit knew what it was getting into, and chose to have this experience of suffering and limitation.
The beautiful thing about suffering is that there's a way out.
If you can love this world, and all beings, as F-ed up as it all may be, then you are a source of light in this dark world.
AUM [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
Edited by - cosmic on Jul 22 2012 11:27:31 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2012 : 7:20:14 PM
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Hi Jose,
quote:
When you find the remote control, will you pass it? ;)
Already passed it with the above :) The more advanced remote control you will get from the producer if you watch his movie without judging for some continuous while. It will have the button pratyahara. If you press that one, you can chose from seven main channels. Each channel has its own topics and are extremly entertaining. My favorite ones are the 6th and 7th, but my godly mother doesn't like if I watch them too much, so most of the time I watch the generic movie without the pratyahara button active =P
quote:
Have they already discover that the inhabitants of those molecular cities have any feeling?
Who are they? In the movie I saw those inhabitants were prettly lively and had strong feelings, but their sadness was of temporary nature anyway. After some time they found themselves in a new very beautiful environement and participated in a new life integration that was much greater and joyous than before, so the tragedy was for their own good without them knowing :)
quote:
If the banana is curved or straight does not affect anybody's feeling, does it?
Some ladies in this forum may give you a better answer to that one ;)
Thanks for your post aswell and om shanti to the whole universe =) |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2012 : 9:43:53 PM
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Why do we wish our loved ones as long a life as possible, if we feel life is so full of suffering?
Is it purely selfish, or maybe there is a part of us that believes life can be more good than bad.
We judge things as good or bad, then we unleash our emotions based upon those judgments and beliefs.
We want to force the world to be fair, but we know it is not, but feel bad when it is proven to not be fair.
We frustrate ourselves by expecting the impossible, then cry when it doesn't happen.
These are ways we set ourselves up to suffer. We make a pattern, and find the world doesn't match it, then cry.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have emotions, but if we look at what our senses are telling us in this moment, are we suffering? Usually not. But people want to gather all the stories of other people suffering, and bring it into their own life. Maybe there is something more productive we can do. . .
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2012 : 10:37:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Maybe there is something more productive we can do. . .
What is your recommendation?
What is your concept of divine love?
How do you reconcile the "problem of evil"?
-Kev |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2012 : 10:47:34 PM
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"What is your recommendation?"
If you feel suffering is the greatest problem, then find some action you can take to help.
"What is your concept of divine love?"
I don't know what it is.
"How do you reconcile the "problem of evil"?"
You can't become friends with that whose nature is unfriendly, so I don't try. I try to focus on what is good,
so it will expand. If you focus on evil, it will expand. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2012 : 10:54:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
"What is your recommendation?"
If you feel suffering is the greatest problem, then find some action you can take to help.
"What is your concept of divine love?"
I don't know what it is.
"How do you reconcile the "problem of evil"?"
You can't become friends with that whose nature is unfriendly, so I don't try. I try to focus on what is good,
so it will expand. If you focus on evil, it will expand.
Your honesty is delightful.
Thank you
Kev |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2012 : 05:11:43 AM
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| Whenever I see evil, I do The Work and I find there's no evil out there. It was just a belief in a thought that was not true. And I find everytime that I AM what I see on the seemlingly outside. |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2012 : 06:08:52 AM
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Hi Etherfish,
I understand there must be death, disintegration of the matter, transmutation of the energy, etc in this universe but I don't understand, if there's a loving god up there, why these changes of states/form have to be painful. Have you seen documentaries where lions hunt impalas for instance? Have you heard these impalas cry out of pain?
To me all this is very cruel, even when, as some of you claim, all this is a dream... even for impalas. But being a dream, does it have to be a nightmare?
J.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2012 : 07:07:35 AM
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You have decided what a "loving God" is, and then you are unhappy because reality doesn't seem to match what you have decided.
Then you decide pain is bad, so no being should have to feel pain for the dream to be good. And so you decide we are living in a bad dream, and it should be good, so the universe is wrong, but you know what would be right.
Maybe none of those things are true, and we just don't have any idea what is going on.
If that were true, we could just watch the negative without activating our mind to generate false thoughts, but choose to favor focusing on the positive. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2012 : 12:17:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Hi Etherfish,
I understand there must be death, disintegration of the matter, transmutation of the energy, etc in this universe but I don't understand, if there's a loving god up there, why these changes of states/form have to be painful. Have you seen documentaries where lions hunt impalas for instance? Have you heard these impalas cry out of pain?
To me all this is very cruel, even when, as some of you claim, all this is a dream... even for impalas. But being a dream, does it have to be a nightmare?
J.
Let me ask you this; if someone actually understood why the world
is the way it is; if someone could actually communicate this
information to you; would you want to know? Would it do you the
slightest good? Or would it do you harm?
Yoga since the pre-classical times has focused upon the "problem of
Maya"; the so-called illusion that so-called separates so-called us
from the so-called Self.
Have you ever considered that Maya is a Mother's loving embrace
of protection, and not the two seraphim barring access to the
tree of life?
Please think deeply about this before you respond.
Love,
Kev |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2012 : 2:41:08 PM
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Hello Jose;
thank you for your questions.I can relate to your questions.
Jesus is Love.
Ramana is Love.
Ma Kali is Love.
Meeting these higher beings,I was filled with indescribable Peace & expanded space in my chest that it really did not affect what's going on around....But this state leaves me after few days & I get back to normal shrank self ...Whatever Source/Allah/God these beings are coming from.It's definitely Love too.
Every time a higher being visits,Peace doesn't only touch me but reaches out to the surrounding .They always bring goodness with them.
However I still can't see how a Loving God-My God- can be the same God who creates all this chaos and violence in the world.He just can't be the same God.
Whether this world is an illusion,dream or reality....why it has to be so violent?
If you ever believe for an instance that the world is well...Just come and live in this part of the world.You will experience & know this world and God don't match!
If I ever got a satisfying answer,I'll let you know
Love
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2012 : 6:11:10 PM
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Hello Etherfish,
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
You have decided what a "loving God" is, and then you are unhappy because reality doesn't seem to match what you have decided.
No, dear Etherfish, I have decided nothing because I don't know. However some of you speak as if you really had a clue... I'm just asking questions because I'd love to understand.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Then you decide pain is bad, so no being should have to feel pain for the dream to be good. And so you decide we are living in a bad dream, and it should be good, so the universe is wrong, but you know what would be right.
No, I don't decide pain is bad. I see the effects of pain in myself, in my beloved ones, in my enemies... In the long run this could be just mere illusion, but it feels like a hurtful one.
Thanks for your post. |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2012 : 6:22:19 PM
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Hola Kev,
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
Let me ask you this; if someone actually understood why the world is the way it is; if someone could actually communicate this information to you; would you want to know? Would it do you the
slightest good? Or would it do you harm?
Harm? I don't see why. 'The Truth Will Set You Free'.
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
(...) Have you ever considered that Maya is a Mother's loving embrace of protection, and not the two seraphim barring access to the tree of life?
That's another lovely myth to explain the unknown.
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
Please think deeply about this before you respond.
I always do it, especially when I have to write in English and not in my mother language ;)
Thank you for your love. |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2012 : 7:05:28 PM
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Hi Namath,
quote:
Originally posted by Namath
Hello Jose;
thank you for your questions.I can relate to your questions.
Thanks for showing I'm not alone here :)
quote:
Originally posted by Namath
(...) However I still can't see how a Loving God-My God- can be the same God who creates all this chaos and violence in the world.He just can't be the same God.
Whether this world is an illusion,dream or reality....why it has to be so violent?
If you ever believe for an instance that the world is well...Just come and live in this part of the world.You will experience & know this world and God don't match!
Exactly. We may be wrong, but being a down-to-earth man, I can't see it in a different way. That's is why I'd like to read some comments on this topic coming from a personal experience, from a spiritual insight or something, more than the typical ideas found in certain books.
quote:
Originally posted by Namath
(...) If I ever got a satisfying answer,I'll let you know
Love
Please, do!!
Much love to you too |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2012 : 7:37:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Namath
However I still can't see how a Loving God-My God- can be the same God who creates all this chaos and violence in the world.He just can't be the same God.
Why do you think it is the same god? |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2012 : 02:37:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by Namath
However I still can't see how a Loving God-My God- can be the same God who creates all this chaos and violence in the world.He just can't be the same God.
Why do you think it is the same god?
Nothing beats a great question.
As our nervous systems evolve, the answers may seem to change,
but a great question is eternal.
Kev
Kev |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2012 : 03:52:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
Nothing beats a great question.
As our nervous systems evolve, the answers may seem to change,
but a great question is eternal.
Kev
Kev
 LOL hehehehehe. Thanks for that, I love it. The answer has no question and it needs none. |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2012 : 07:00:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Hi Namath,
quote:
Originally posted by Namath
Hello Jose;
thank you for your questions.I can relate to your questions.
Thanks for showing I'm not alone here :)
quote:
Originally posted by Namath
(...) However I still can't see how a Loving God-My God- can be the same God who creates all this chaos and violence in the world.He just can't be the same God.
Whether this world is an illusion,dream or reality....why it has to be so violent?
If you ever believe for an instance that the world is well...Just come and live in this part of the world.You will experience & know this world and God don't match!
Exactly. We may be wrong, but being a down-to-earth man, I can't see it in a different way. That's is why I'd like to read some comments on this topic coming from a personal experience, from a spiritual insight or something, more than the typical ideas found in certain books.
quote:
Originally posted by Namath
(...) If I ever got a satisfying answer,I'll let you know
Love
Please, do!!
Much love to you too
Hey Jose;
No you're not alone of course.Be sure every thought that crosses your mind must be crossing someone else's mind too.
Feel like sharing this with you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6xB...eature=share
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD5bCNvAihU
I didn't read everyone's replies on this topic.But I feel with what you're saying.when someone would tell me this world is a dream or illusion and I'm like Ha? It feels real! Pain is real! people are being killed and tortured two hours from my place and their suffering is really enough!Or someone says "you are that!"....what that...I still hardly manage my bills in life how you're telling me I'm that!
anyway...that doesn't need to be told you are that
On the other hand,there are advanced members on this forum.It might be difficult to interpret the message from where they are now....It's like you eat mango and I never had mango.& I ask you to describe its taste and you say it's sour.I tell you sour,yes!sour like Lemon...you will reply"no sour like....mango"
Same with spirituality,you experience and once you try to put that in words...it can get messy!
Therefore,better to have own answers from own experience till one reaches ...and when one reaches...I doubt there will be any need for any question.
You ask me now...I'll tell you I don't know because that's the truth.Once I unite with God,I'll remember you there
Much Love to you too :)
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Divine love?
