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Namath
350 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 02:59:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by showup
By doing this experiment.... one does not exit the world...
You feel so, because you assume this is the only life you have…if you lose that you lose everything…
As per Hindu system and advaitic teaching the jeeva undergoes endless birth and death again and again….So, just by dyeing one more time one does not lose anything at all… Let’s assume, I underwent about one million of births and deaths prior to this life… If I undertake the free fall experiment and die again, what difference it is going to make?... I will be losing my wife and kids… So what? I already lost millions of wives several millions of kids… so what difference it makes?... if I die one more time that would just increase in the count by one in the cycle (one millionth and one time). Nothing ends there… my jeeva will born again as per the karma and undergo pain/pleasure as per karma again…
So, you can now believe… indeed this world is dream… You will be able to verify this only when you get enlightened…
no not yet...
Hello Showup;
I personally only know this life I'm living now.I have no knowledge of any previous life nor any future life.So no belief from my side about the many lives theory.
At one time,I dreamt I'm a rat.& I was running away and followed by people.They kept following me till they killed me.I[The rat] was in total confusion on why they did that...Also I was confused looking at my dead body when I still can hear and see...yet I have no form.
the whole thing,felt so real that I[Namath] was totally confused of who I am ...I decided to consider the whole thing as a vision from some previous life.
few days later,some people visited us & they spoke jokingly about a bus driver that comes every day from the north.It's a long drive to Beirut!.When this driver gets into his bus in the morning...a rat runs and get into the bus....when the bus reaches Beirut...the rat gets out and disappears... only to get back in the evening and ride the bus with the driver back to north...Everyday...the same story...Harmless rat! Till that day,upon recommendation from other drivers ...they killed the rat for they thought he might cut some wires in the bus & cause some accident...
So that was no dream about some previous life...it was for an action that's happening in this life ...at the same time.
My point is...The Self/Allah can have many lives...millions of lives...but we as individuals are nothing...we don't even have this life...we only see glimpses of unity and truth as we try to come closer to Allah...that's all!
dream...yes maybe... from Allah perspective! ...from Namath perspective...it's so real :D
Salam
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 08:42:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Namath
Hello Showup;
I personally only know this life I'm living now.I have no knowledge of any previous life nor any future life.So no belief from my side about the many lives theory.
Sorry to say this my friend!. The total Hinduism and advaitic teaching are built on the knowledge of reincarnation and karma only. That is like Grade 1 in school. Without undergoing Grade1 you can’t do masters and PhD. I mean you can’t understand any advaitic teachings without trusting reincarnation and karma.
By the way, how does the religion of Muslims and Christianity explain why one person born in royal family and the other in a beggar family if both of them never had any prior life and karma? I mean Isn’t God, or whoever responsible for their births should give equal treatment for both of them if they don’t have prior history of birth/karma right? If so, why in this world everyone born at different socio-economic level and undergo different extent of pain/pleasure? Isn’t this enough of proof to explain reincarnation and karma? |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 10:59:03 AM
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I'll leave the Christian part for someone who has deep knowledge and understanding in that domain.
I can answer how I personally see it but it doesn't necessary reflect all muslims opinions...
we don't really entertain our minds of why this one born poor or wealthy...sick or healthy...that's Allah Will!We just help where possible & when given the chance to do that!
I can't see how someone born in royal family has any advantage over someone in poor family when it comes to freedom and happiness!
I'm not saying there's or there's not reincarnation dear Showup...I'm speaking from my personal experience/s.
As per Yogani's lesson there's no need for any belief or faith...So Only what I experience I can say for sure...Everything else is subject to doubt.
I remember a sentence said long time ago by my 5th grade teacher at the beginning of an academic year:
"Everything is a relative truth w.r.t the person...The only Absolute truth is Allah"
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 2:28:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Namath
I remember a sentence said long time ago by my 5th grade teacher at the beginning of an academic year:
"Everything is a relative truth w.r.t the person...The only Absolute truth is Allah"
Oh My God!! all 5th grade students seems to disciple yogis and yoginis and the 5th grade teacher seems to be a big Swamiji   |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 2:59:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by showup
By the way, how does the religion of Muslims and Christianity explain why one person born in royal family and the other in a beggar family if both of them never had any prior life and karma?
May be you know this already: Christianity in its early centuries did believe in reincarnation and only later the church emphasized other doctrines. But even today you can find quotes in the bible that point to reincarnation. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 3:25:39 PM
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Hi Showup,
quote:
Sorry to say this my friend!. The total Hinduism and advaitic teaching are built on the knowledge of reincarnation and karma only. That is like Grade 1 in school. Without undergoing Grade1 you can’t do masters and PhD. I mean you can’t understand any advaitic teachings without trusting reincarnation and karma.
Just to pick up on a couple of points. There are many different kinds of Hindu, or rather you could say that there are many people practising different spiritual paths who sometimes collectively are referred to as Hindu's. In order to practice as a Hindu there is no requirement to believe anything at all. Some Hindu's believe some things, others don't. It is a question of personal faith.
As for advaita, ultimately advaita is the teaching that we had no previous births, will have no future births and that we never had anything to do with karma. This is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita.
Christi |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 3:36:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
As for advaita, ultimately advaita is the teaching that we had no previous births, will have no future births and that we never had anything to do with karma. This is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita. Christi
Can you please provide reference for this? Thanks. |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 3:48:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogishankar
Oh My God!! all 5th grade students seems to disciple yogis and yoginis and the 5th grade teacher seems to be a big Swamiji
Believe me when I say that's the only sentence I remember from that academic year...& other academic years that followed
@Wolfgang:Same with Quran...Here's an example:
"How is it that you adopt the attitude of disbelief towards Allah when the fact is that you were lifeless and He gave you life, and He will take away life from you and wilt again restore you to life: then you shall ultimately return to Him."~~The Cow
thank you everybody for your inputs:Showup,Shankar,Wolfgang & Christi.
Namaste
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 4:36:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by showup
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
As for advaita, ultimately advaita is the teaching that we had no previous births, will have no future births and that we never had anything to do with karma. This is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita. Christi
Can you please provide reference for this? Thanks.
Hi Showup,
It's all covered in the last 8 chapters of the Gita... the true nature of Brahman, the nature of the soul and the method for the union of the soul with Brahman. It is worth reading all 8 chapters, preferably with commentary to gain a good understanding of the subject. |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 4:54:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
As for advaita, ultimately advaita is the teaching that we had no previous births, will have no future births and that we never had anything to do with karma. This is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita. Christi
Bhagavad Gita
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Just as in the physical body of the embodied being is the process of childhood, youth, old age; similarly in the transmigration from one body to another the wise are never deluded. [Ch2, ver13]
As a person gives up old and worn out garments and accepts new apparel, similarly the embodied soul giving up old and worn out bodies verily accepts new bodies. [Ch2, ver22]
For one who has taken birth, death is certain and for one who has died, birth is certain. Therefore in an inevitable situation understanding should prevail. [Ch2, ver27] |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 5:11:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by showup
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
As for advaita, ultimately advaita is the teaching that we had no previous births, will have no future births and that we never had anything to do with karma. This is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita. Christi
Bhagavad Gita
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Just as in the physical body of the embodied being is the process of childhood, youth, old age; similarly in the transmigration from one body to another the wise are never deluded. [Ch2, ver13]
As a person gives up old and worn out garments and accepts new apparel, similarly the embodied soul giving up old and worn out bodies verily accepts new bodies. [Ch2, ver22]
For one who has taken birth, death is certain and for one who has died, birth is certain. Therefore in an inevitable situation understanding should prevail. [Ch2, ver27]
Hi Showup,
Those are quotes from chapter 2 where Krishna is describing aspects of illusory existence, or maya. In the last 8 chapters (chapters 10 to 18) he describes the true nature of the soul as being eternally beyond both birth and death and the methods by which the practitioner of yoga can come to know this true nature of reality as their own nature. |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 5:34:25 PM
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| I have a sub-qn here. When we talk about next birth, re-incarnation, etc, whether our next birth will be human form again? or some thing else? Appreciate if any one can give me quotes as well. |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2012 : 6:16:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogishankar
I have a sub-qn here. When we talk about next birth, re-incarnation, etc, whether our next birth will be human form again? or some thing else? Appreciate if any one can give me quotes as well.
Not necessarily a human form. It will depend upon
(i) what/whom one loves/dreams to attain when (s)he lived
(ii) what one’s karma is.
A person can born as a worm or a blade of grass or as a celestial with extraordinary powers.
See here Jada Bharatha born as deer:
http://rsnarayan.blogspot.com/2007/...tham-05.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadabharata |
Edited by - showup on Jul 06 2012 7:18:12 PM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2012 : 02:13:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by showup
By the way, how does the religion of Muslims and Christianity explain why one person born in royal family and the other in a beggar family if both of them never had any prior life and karma? I mean Isn’t God, or whoever responsible for their births should give equal treatment for both of them if they don’t have prior history of birth/karma right? If so, why in this world everyone born at different socio-economic level and undergo different extent of pain/pleasure? Isn’t this enough of proof to explain reincarnation and karma?
Out of curiosity - in the chain of reincarnation, who is born first a King or a beggar? I mean is it after acquiring bad karma as a King you are then born a beggar or is it after acquiring bad karma as a beggar you then get down-graded into a King?
Btw, I love your Actor metaphor - excellent one
Sey |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2012 : 4:13:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
quote:
Originally posted by showup
By the way, how does the religion of Muslims and Christianity explain why one person born in royal family and the other in a beggar family if both of them never had any prior life and karma? I mean Isn’t God, or whoever responsible for their births should give equal treatment for both of them if they don’t have prior history of birth/karma right? If so, why in this world everyone born at different socio-economic level and undergo different extent of pain/pleasure? Isn’t this enough of proof to explain reincarnation and karma?
Out of curiosity - in the chain of reincarnation, who is born first a King or a beggar? I mean is it after acquiring bad karma as a King you are then born a beggar or is it after acquiring bad karma as a beggar you then get down-graded into a King?
Btw, I love your Actor metaphor - excellent one
Sey
In that particular forum post I brought in two jeevathmas. Jeevathman1 born as king and Jeevathman2 born as beggar to show that both are at different socioeconomic levels without any choice of their own just because of their karma. If they had no karma at birth (i.e. if that birth is not an incarnation) they would have received equal socioeconomic status at birth and hence would have undergone equal extent of pain/pleasure until they accumulate their own karma.
If I understand correctly, in your question you are talking about one jeevathman that is born successively in two births as (case1) king-> beggar or (case2) beggar->king making it totally a different situation. The plain answer for this question is, it can be of either case. In other words whether case 1 is true or case 2 is true dependent upon the nature of karma that jeevathman had before that birth took place. However, if you are coming to egg first or chicken first point, the issue would boil to the origin of universe. |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2012 : 10:23:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Namath
I have a question maybe someone who has good knowledge in advaitic teaching can give a satisfying answer.my mind refuses to drop this question
Life is compared to a dream.therefore,Like the mind creates dream state,it creates this life....so it's basically referred to as another dream.
However!A simple experiment and this proves wrong.Take free-fall for example....You can do as much as you wish free-falls...and then continue the dream as if nothing has happened.
Have one free-fall in this life & bye bye...you exit this world ...it's one try & die
I attend Meditation sessions conducted by Osho's meditation master here in my place regularly. Today, the meditation discussed and taught was 'be aware in dreams'. I felt your question is relevant to the session. After the session, there was sat sang. I took the liberty of raising your question exactly in verbatim.
Osho Master provided the clarification. Whoever has translated Advaitha/ Shankara’s work and they made poor, wrong translation. As a result Advaitha or Shankara has been misunderstood.
You are constantly dreaming- not only in night, even in day also dreaming. While you are awake, you are still dreaming. This is the first point. Second point is that if the dreaming continues, you cannot said to be really awake. Dreaming creates a film over consciousness.
Shankara proposed that life or world is a dream as a support for a particular meditation for inner awakening. And this is the meditation: if you want to remember while dreaming that this is a dream, you will have to start while you are awake. Normally while you are dreaming you cannot remember that this is a dream; you think it is a reality. In other words, be aware that you are in dream. Don’t be part of the dream.
Master talked about 2 techniques for enlightenment or inner awakening.
First technique is that start acting, believing as if the whole world is a just a dream. Whatsoever you are doing, such as eating, talking, walking, etc is dream. Key point is that Let your mind continuously remember that while you are awake, activities are dream. everything else is a dream. In other words, world is a dream. Constantly make this point in your mind.
2nd meditation discussed was from Sufi tradition of Islam. This meditation technique was widely adopted by Gurdjieff. Remember ‘I am’ whatsoever doing you are doing. ‘I am’ should not be chanted verbatically and should be felt in mind all the time. The feeling of ‘I am’ should be there all the time. Do not be so much merged, involved, identified. Try in any activity and then feel it. The more real you become inside, the more unreal becomes the surrounding world. The reality becomes ‘I’ and the world becomes unreal. Both cannot be real.
http://www.osho.com/main.cfm?Area=M...KEN=93413680
Both meditations lead to inner awakening and self-realization.
If you ask my comment, I have to start practising this and find out. So I will let you know after few months |
Edited by - yogishankar on Jul 10 2012 10:40:51 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2012 : 10:30:02 PM
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| Interesting Yogishankar- Thank you. |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 02:53:00 AM
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Thank you for Sharing Shankar :)
Both techniques I'm familiar with & have practiced with slight difference.
the first technique was recommended by a dear friend "Alan Jacobs" [President of Ramana Ashram in UK] while we were in Tiru.
He recommended to look at life as if I'm looking through a window frame.In which even myself is another character in that frame.
I use it from time to time but I don't force it.Only if it happens naturally.
The second technique is very close to my nature.As the name Allah keeps repeating naturally in my heart.My Sufi friend "Yassin" amended that to "La Illah Ila Allah".But that didn't work .I'm back to letting "Allah' repeats itself in the heart+ the bhakti towards Allah above anything or anyone is enough driving force in that direction.
Both are great techniques outside AYP practices.Work with what flows with your nature.
All Love.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 05:13:51 AM
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@Showup - I am just messing around but also pointing out that I do not see any co-relation between level of spiritual development attained and socioeconomic conditions
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 05:51:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogishankar
quote:
Originally posted by Namath
I have a question maybe someone who has good knowledge in advaitic teaching can give a satisfying answer.my mind refuses to drop this question
Life is compared to a dream.therefore,Like the mind creates dream state,it creates this life....so it's basically referred to as another dream.
However!A simple experiment and this proves wrong.Take free-fall for example....You can do as much as you wish free-falls...and then continue the dream as if nothing has happened.
Have one free-fall in this life & bye bye...you exit this world ...it's one try & die
I attend Meditation sessions conducted by Osho's meditation master here in my place regularly. Today, the meditation discussed and taught was 'be aware in dreams'. I felt your question is relevant to the session. After the session, there was sat sang. I took the liberty of raising your question exactly in verbatim.
Osho Master provided the clarification. Whoever has translated Advaitha/ Shankara’s work and they made poor, wrong translation. As a result Advaitha or Shankara has been misunderstood.
You are constantly dreaming- not only in night, even in day also dreaming. While you are awake, you are still dreaming. This is the first point. Second point is that if the dreaming continues, you cannot said to be really awake. Dreaming creates a film over consciousness.
Shankara proposed that life or world is a dream as a support for a particular meditation for inner awakening. And this is the meditation: if you want to remember while dreaming that this is a dream, you will have to start while you are awake. Normally while you are dreaming you cannot remember that this is a dream; you think it is a reality. In other words, be aware that you are in dream. Don’t be part of the dream.
Master talked about 2 techniques for enlightenment or inner awakening.
First technique is that start acting, believing as if the whole world is a just a dream. Whatsoever you are doing, such as eating, talking, walking, etc is dream. Key point is that Let your mind continuously remember that while you are awake, activities are dream. everything else is a dream. In other words, world is a dream. Constantly make this point in your mind.
2nd meditation discussed was from Sufi tradition of Islam. This meditation technique was widely adopted by Gurdjieff. Remember ‘I am’ whatsoever doing you are doing. ‘I am’ should not be chanted verbatically and should be felt in mind all the time. The feeling of ‘I am’ should be there all the time. Do not be so much merged, involved, identified. Try in any activity and then feel it. The more real you become inside, the more unreal becomes the surrounding world. The reality becomes ‘I’ and the world becomes unreal. Both cannot be real.
http://www.osho.com/main.cfm?Area=M...KEN=93413680
Both meditations lead to inner awakening and self-realization.
If you ask my comment, I have to start practising this and find out. So I will let you know after few months
Both those techniques work but I think they need guidance. It's not really true that life is a dream, but saying that it isn't a dream/illusion makes the world a more concrete place and furthers attachment. Equally, believing it is a dream has downsides because it can trap the mind into believing that nothing is worth doing and can seem like the end of responsibility.
It actually makes no difference if life is a dream or not. It's only important to know what you are. Accept it as a dream, or use the inner sensuality of retracting the senses by feeling 'I am' and you can come to see the 'how' of the illusion if not the 'why'.
Just be aware that those techniques can both create a strong Ego attachment unless someone is there to shake you out of it on a regular basis. You can get stuck. That is why grounding and self pacing are so important. By recognising this trait developing with its attendant manifestations we can quickly shake free and get out of the cul de sac and return to the path.
The best route is deep meditation. It is the safest and easiest to manage. It doesn't get you stuck in dead ends because it's mostly self regulating. It develops slowly, but the foundation it develops is already beyond the mind and so creates rapid change on a deeper level, while being quite gentle on the level of the mind. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 05:56:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
Originally posted by showup
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
As for advaita, ultimately advaita is the teaching that we had no previous births, will have no future births and that we never had anything to do with karma. This is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita. Christi
Can you please provide reference for this? Thanks.
Hi Showup,
It's all covered in the last 8 chapters of the Gita... the true nature of Brahman, the nature of the soul and the method for the union of the soul with Brahman. It is worth reading all 8 chapters, preferably with commentary to gain a good understanding of the subject.
Yes. I didn't read that in the version I have, but this is how it is. The re-incarnation is just part of the same dream/illusion but once the self is known it is seen that there is no birth or death. There is no being born and no dying. There is no accumulation of Karma, it is self manifested. |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 07:33:40 AM
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the first technique was recommended by a dear friend "Alan Jacobs" [President of Ramana Ashram in UK] while we were in Tiru.
Alan Jacobs is my friend as well World is very small. Every one in this world is known to one with in one's friends' friends (maximum is 6). |
Edited by - yogishankar on Jul 11 2012 07:48:16 AM |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 11:11:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
@Showup - I am just messing around but also pointing out that I do not see any co-relation between level of spiritual development attained and socioeconomic conditions
Neither I am nor anyone else claim that there is correlation between level of spiritual development and socioeconomic status. No one can purchase enlightenment by paying money or by using their influence. An enlightenment is worth over the all the wealth present in this world. I mean even if someone own this whole world, and willing to pay the same as cost to purchase enlightenment, still it won’t be possible. This point is well explained in the scriptures.
I just brought up the socioeconomic status point in that post to show that people indeed are born with different socioeconomic status and hence undergo different extent of pain/pleasure. I mean the extent of pain/pleasure one undergoes is directly depending upon their previous karma. So, it is clear of an evidence that karma do exist. If someone argues that karma does not exist then it is their part to explain how and why people born in different socioeconomic status and hence undergo different extent of pain/pleasure. In some religions they believe there is only one life. There was neither any nor one after the present life. If such case is true, all the people at birth will have zero karma and are supposed to be born in similar socioeconomic status and hence undergo same extent of pain/pleasure. But that is not the case in this world. This also indicates that the karma which is responsible for the difference in socioeconomic status at birth and hence the variation in extent of pain/pleasure would have also been accumulated in the previous life. I mean this also serves as a proof for incarnation.
I hope this clarifies. |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 12:43:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogishankar
the first technique was recommended by a dear friend "Alan Jacobs" [President of Ramana Ashram in UK] while we were in Tiru.
Alan Jacobs is my friend as well World is very small. Every one in this world is known to one with in one's friends' friends (maximum is 6).
Dear Shankar;
This is how I came to know Alan Jacobs.Later on, we met in Tiru & he became the biggest blessing & the closest person to my heart in this life
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=10570
... this kind of telepathy and connection became something normal and regular with time.
Amazing how some souls connect & have instant liking .
Speaking about previous lives...I have a strong feeling that I and Alan knew each other long before this life!.
All Love. |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 9:26:55 PM
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Amazing how some souls connect & have instant liking
Alan is a great, blessed soul You too |
Edited by - yogishankar on Jul 11 2012 9:33:20 PM |
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Life as a dream
