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Namath
350 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 19 2012 : 5:41:38 PM
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I have a question maybe someone who has good knowledge in advaitic teaching can give a satisfying answer.my mind refuses to drop this question 
Life is compared to a dream.therefore,Like the mind creates dream state,it creates this life....so it's basically referred to as another dream.
However!A simple experiment and this proves wrong.Take free-fall for example....You can do as much as you wish free-falls...and then continue the dream as if nothing has happened.
Have one free-fall in this life & bye bye...you exit this world ...it's one try & die
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Edited by - Namath on Jun 19 2012 5:42:38 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2012 : 6:45:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Namath
I have a question maybe someone who has good knowledge in advaitic teaching can give a satisfying answer.my mind refuses to drop this question
Life is compared to a dream.therefore,Like the mind creates dream state,it creates this life....so it's basically referred to as another dream.
However!A simple experiment and this proves wrong.Take free-fall for example....You can do as much as you wish free-falls...and then continue the dream as if nothing has happened.
Have one free-fall in this life & bye bye...you exit this world ...it's one try & die
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Do you really want to go there. Remember its advaitic so the chance of a satisfactory answer is notoriously difficult.
There is no one falling or dying, you only died in the dream state. Now don't go chucking yourself out of the window because these stunts are only performed by trained Advaitics and not those who are unrealised. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2012 : 8:41:16 PM
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I've done free fall several times and I'm fine. But seriously - I think advaita is just word games.
Trying to mix truths from universal consciousness with words from life on earth.
It sounds lofty, but like you say, if we are mortal it's not a dream. I would like to see an advaitan demonstrate that his life is of no consequence, and then finish the argument with more words.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2012 : 12:13:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I've done free fall several times and I'm fine. But seriously - I think advaita is just word games.
Trying to mix truths from universal consciousness with words from life on earth.
It sounds lofty, but like you say, if we are mortal it's not a dream. I would like to see an advaitan demonstrate that his life is of no consequence, and then finish the argument with more words.
LOL that precisely what wouldn't happen because it's your dream and there is no one else. What happens in your dream is precisely what you have created, although even you do not exist.
Adviata seems more of a clever philosophy designed to make you realise that you are nothing more than a reflection. Each time one reflection is recognised it is immediately re-created as another, over and over. It's use is in constantly breaking each mirror until the reflection is destroyed prior to its appearance, that way you can recognise that which is both mirror and creator of mirrors. It's useful for that alone. It's self inquiry or DM by another route.
You can use them individually or in any combination, but the result is eventually the same.the difference is that DM is slower but far more stable because it develops a foundation. The other two can introduce a craziness powered by circular logic where the mirror image becomes corrupted instead of broken. I realised this during self inquiry and dropped it until I had built the base of inner silence as a solid foundation for further work. In that way the mirror is prevented from distortion because inner silence sort of eats the crazy element like a friendly black hole and stops it becoming a problem.
Hope that makes some kind of sense? |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2012 : 07:31:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Do you really want to go there. ...
Now don't go chucking yourself out of the window
 ....lol...I won't...Not that excited about the dream state concept.
Do I want to go there....not really.I've been reading in some advaitic book.It's a conversation between so-called guru & his devotees....After two or three pages I really felt like giving the book a free-fall from my balcony!
There are words of truth no doubt about it however the guru answers in a very smart sarcastic wicked way.I felt this person is either really twisted in the head or doesn't care the least about the well-being of his/her devotees.A person so full of oneself!
I give private-tutoring in my free time to fourth and fifth graders.For those kids,I'm some kind of god that they love & highly respect.when I speak...they give me full attention...If I ask them to solve an exercise & they couldn't do it...some cry...It took me sometime to grasp why they cry ...they seem to feel that they have put me down in some way.
With someone that much linked to you emotionally,mentally...&/or spiritually,you have a responsibility...An attempt to be funny on their expenses can break their hearts....It's an abuse in a way.
& when it comes to gurus...it's not just a link...It's a surrender ...Ya Habibi
That's why AYP is a very good option over here.
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2012 : 07:39:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I've done free fall several times and I'm fine. But seriously - I think advaita is just word games.
Trying to mix truths from universal consciousness with words from life on earth.
It sounds lofty, but like you say, if we are mortal it's not a dream. I would like to see an advaitan demonstrate that his life is of no consequence, and then finish the argument with more words.
you've done free falls Etherfish...specify the height! :)...any photos.
Definitely it's all in the mind...where else it would be...so what I see is that all the books after books on advaita are pure philosophy...even the witness state is in the mind...!but so what...the witness feels like the most pleasant place to be... it feels like home!
Karl!I'll read your other reply in the evening...gtg now.
Salam. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2012 : 08:44:12 AM
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Free falls from 10 or 12,000 feet down to 2000, where I pulled the rip cord. No pictures. the free fall instructor was a woman who was flirting with me with body language in the classroom, and her boyfriend was the photographer, so the one day that he jumped with us to take pictures, the pictures of me somehow didn't come out! It was an "accelerated free fall" course. Then we used to jump off fifty foot cliffs into the water also. I used to be afraid of heights. no so much anymore.
Karl- thanks, and yes it makes sense; the "clever philosophy" resonates with what i thought.
"LOL that precisely what wouldn't happen because it's your dream and there is no one else. What happens in your dream is precisely what you have created, although even you do not exist."
If it's my dream, couldn't I see it as described; an advaitan failing?
I see many glimpses of reality being a reflection of me. I just ignore it as scenery, and return to my mortal life. No use stirring up craziness anymore than it already is. I am already quite aware of how close it is, and keep it at bay by being down to earth.
My sister told me she had an experience that she was just a "rolling mirror". She saw that all she does is roll along the landscape and reflect things. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2012 : 10:12:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
If it's my dream, couldn't I see it as described; an advaitan failing?
I see many glimpses of reality being a reflection of me. I just ignore it as scenery, and return to my mortal life. No use stirring up craziness anymore than it already is. I am already quite aware of how close it is, and keep it at bay by being down to earth.
My sister told me she had an experience that she was just a "rolling mirror". She saw that all she does is roll along the landscape and reflect things.
Haha no you can't, in your dream it's not possible so you won't see it. The only way to find out is to go do it yourself and I heartily don't recommend it without a parachute at least. Your world curls around you like petals around the centre of the flower.
It's like two equal bodies floating in space, they are both attractors and move towards each other. They effect each other, but you are both of the bodies simultaneously in the dream, neither knowing which one you are. At one point you feel like you are separate and then you realise that you are not. If you push or pull it creates random effects. If you remain neutral and have knowledge then both synchronise in a way that is incredible from one perspective and very obviously the way it actually is from a proper standpoint.
imagine if you thought the world was flat and you circumnavigated it and returned to the original spot. You would have two thoughts. One would be that you had miraculously arrived in a parallel universe that looked exactly like the place you had just come from and that there must be multiples of these universes ( these are like the mirrors I mentioned ). The other would be that the world was a sphere and so there would be no mystery. Of course if you have no understanding of a sphere then you have to speculate using the knowledge and in some way infer a sphere even if you have never actually seen one.
That should make anyone steer well clear of Adviata
Oh those teachers are just having a laugh. I realised after I read SRMs conversational text that the teaching relies on frustration to unlock the knowledge. Eventually you give up looking, which is exactly when you find it. Like a game of hide and seek it goes all around the universe saying its hot or cold, but never finding it in the one place it remains hidden. You cannot view your own eye directly, you have to infer. |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2012 : 1:23:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Free falls from 10 or 12,000 feet down to 2000, where I pulled the rip cord. No pictures. the free fall instructor was a woman who was flirting with me with body language in the classroom, and her boyfriend was the photographer, so the one day that he jumped with us to take pictures, the pictures of me somehow didn't come out! It was an "accelerated free fall" course. Then we used to jump off fifty foot cliffs into the water also. I used to be afraid of heights. no so much anymore.
hahahah...I wonder why!
thank you Etherfish ,Karl for your inputs.
[img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2012 : 3:58:56 PM
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Some times back I finished my meditation & laid back...I heard a pop sound so I opened my eyes & saw a red rose right in front of my face...that made me laugh!it's so playful...
So yes...this world is unreal in a way...what we see and hear can be deceiving...
I love you my Sat-Guru...thank you for your patience & Love ,[img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2012 : 4:56:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Namath
Some times back I finished my meditation & laid back...I heard a pop sound so I opened my eyes & saw a red rose right in front of my face...that made me laugh!it's so playful...
So yes...this world is unreal in a way...what we see and hear can be deceiving...
I love you my Sat-Guru...thank you for your patience & Love ,[img]icon_heart.gif[/img]
showing you the way home. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2012 : 8:09:42 PM
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Karl I have no idea what you're talking about! I already see an advaitan failing from their words which I think are foolish. It doesn't matter to me if anyone else sees it or not.
There is an interesting experiment going on now. What if there was a very large group of people who are all deceived by one entity. They believe the lies he tells them, and don't check the facts because of the charisma, and their desire for him to be right. If this were the majority of people who are affected, does that make his lies come true? Time will tell and i am eagerly watching. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2012 : 03:51:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Karl I have no idea what you're talking about! I already see an advaitan failing from their words which I think are foolish. It doesn't matter to me if anyone else sees it or not.
There is an interesting experiment going on now. What if there was a very large group of people who are all deceived by one entity. They believe the lies he tells them, and don't check the facts because of the charisma, and their desire for him to be right. If this were the majority of people who are affected, does that make his lies come true? Time will tell and i am eagerly watching.
it doesn't matter at all. I have no interest in it, it's just quaint. It ties the mind up and is annoying. Some times I think the Advaita philosophy is a form of sadism, a mental equivalent of whipping.
I just notice where I'm putting my feet, whatever happens outside of that is of no concern except for entertainment. There is nothing to learn from entertainment Just enjoy the ride.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2012 : 08:25:13 AM
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It is interesting to me, the concept of how manifestation comes about tho. thanks Karl
P.S. The question of, if lies become truth when the majority of people believe them, is not just happening in one place with one entity. I see it in several places, several entities. In each case the entity is thought of as being very good for the people he lies to, like a return of Jesus. But his interest is not in being good for people, only in the power and adoration.
One of many things I see happening in the world that are very exciting for me to watch, because they are new and unprecedented. I love it!
Of course, I think there are very dark forces at work, but it is not scary to me because I feel they have no power over me if I don't choose to align with them. |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2012 : 08:35:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Karl I have no idea what you're talking about! I already see an advaitan failing from their words which I think are foolish. It doesn't matter to me if anyone else sees it or not.
There is an interesting experiment going on now. What if there was a very large group of people who are all deceived by one entity. They believe the lies he tells them, and don't check the facts because of the charisma, and their desire for him to be right. If this were the majority of people who are affected, does that make his lies come true? Time will tell and i am eagerly watching.
it doesn't matter at all. I have no interest in it, it's just quaint. It ties the mind up and is annoying. Some times I think the Advaita philosophy is a form of sadism, a mental equivalent of whipping.
I just notice where I'm putting my feet, whatever happens outside of that is of no concern except for entertainment. There is nothing to learn from entertainment Just enjoy the ride.
...I can imagine this entity saying one day "Surprise!there's nothing...Instead of living your life to max,you wasted your life for nothing"
I'll then shake hands with this entity ...acknowledge & congratulate him on his intelligence & tell him "Alsalam alaykom...see you next life"
What's the worst-case scenario...It's an experiment...I love experiments!
Now on a serious note...I've been a stranger among my community for 30 years...the only time I felt home was when I entered Ramana Ashram...& when I entered the shrine I was weeping for long time & had no clue why i was crying ...It just felt like..."Ha...so it's you I've been missing in my life all along...the last puzzle piece has been added!"
just to be objective...one has to doubt his own doubts as well.Life as a dream?...no way...If I tell a kid that...he won't accept it.But again it's temporary & has a beginning and an end so in this sense it's not real...just like a dream is temporary...but life is not a dream literary !
Now back to the red rose I saw yesterday with eyes wide open...it's a reflection? but from where...there must be a source for this reflection...from where?tell me!..So there's a possibility of another plane...& who spoke about that...Saints!so back to saints
Love.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2012 : 7:38:25 PM
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| Well the worst case scenario is the only scenario. Many people are led away from love into fear, end generate much more karma. The new twist is, they don't see it as fear; they see it as a hundred other things, like "doing what's right". So part of the experiment (that's what i call it; not a generally accepted concept) is this: if people do the wrong thing and hurt others unknowingly, does it generate bad karma for them? For instance, many Germans under Hitler thought he was like a messiah, lifting them up to be better people. They had no idea there was torture and killing. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2012 : 10:03:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
I just notice where I'm putting my feet, whatever happens outside of that is of no concern except for entertainment. There is nothing to learn from entertainment Just enjoy the ride.
I know this is a bit off-topic, but I just had to ask..... Karl, do you really believe what you said above? Do you really believe that there is nothing to learn from whatever happens "outside?"
I don't know exactly why it struck me so hard (although I know it probably has something to do with my own obstructions regarding this) but the words "there is nothing to learn" stuck out to me like they were lit up in neon.
Love!
Carson  |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2012 : 12:50:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Well the worst case scenario is the only scenario. Many people are led away from love into fear, end generate much more karma. The new twist is, they don't see it as fear; they see it as a hundred other things, like "doing what's right". So part of the experiment (that's what i call it; not a generally accepted concept) is this: if people do the wrong thing and hurt others unknowingly, does it generate bad karma for them? For instance, many Germans under Hitler thought he was like a messiah, lifting them up to be better people. They had no idea there was torture and killing.
Interesting point Etherfish!yes this is worth asking oneself.what's good in someone's point of view can be seen as harmful in another's...but at the end it's just an action.
I personally not worried about karma,reincarnation...etc...these are new words for me & to adopt them means I'm adding new believes.I'd rather be without believes.
When it comes to right & wrong.there's no general rule.It's all relative to the person.I know what's right and what's wrong for me.If something is (say) wrong...I feel uncomfortable energy between my diaphragm & my chest area...I know this won't pass & won't be digested by my system..time to face it & clarify what suits me personally !
When it comes to fear.Yes it can be a barrier to one's development in life but it can also be seen as an Initial defense tool.There's Fear...& there's something as learning from one's experience!
To elaborate more,have a look at this video:
A hornet attacking Japanese bees.Those bees have developed a natural defense mechanism coming from experience that made them act the right way for their well-being....
At the beginning of the video,one can say that these bees are scared & avoiding the hornet....well not so fast
Amazing Japanese...even their bees work in a team
On the other hand,there're other videos on youtube. European bees Vs Japanese bees...The hornet did a massacre with the european bees.they handle him with no fear so they were attacking him without any experience...sad movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EZtXNIT5QQ
Love.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2012 : 01:14:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Some times I think the Advaita philosophy is a form of sadism, a mental equivalent of whipping.
Man, I was feeling a slight twinge of sadness arising (for some unknown reason), but upon reading that deeply insightful quip by Karl, I erupted with some gut-busting laughter. Thank you, Karl!
It's like the medieval Christians that whipped themselves as a form of penance to purge their "sins" against God. Going to war with the ego/mind.
Anyway, if anything could theoretically offend the Creator, what would be more offensive to the Creator than trying to nullify all of His creation--as the super-extreme Advaitans try to do! How about some gratitude for the gift of incarnation instead! |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2012 : 01:55:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
It's like the medieval Christians that whipped themselves as a form of penance to purge their "sins" against God. Going to war with the ego/mind.
It's off topic but I used to believe that too. Now I am not so sure this is what they were doing. I believe they whipped themselves to create intense physical, mental and emotional suffering (Bhakti) which when it peaks transforms into outpouring of divine Love ! |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2012 : 04:22:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by karl
I just notice where I'm putting my feet, whatever happens outside of that is of no concern except for entertainment. There is nothing to learn from entertainment Just enjoy the ride.
I know this is a bit off-topic, but I just had to ask..... Karl, do you really believe what you said above? Do you really believe that there is nothing to learn from whatever happens "outside?"
I don't know exactly why it struck me so hard (although I know it probably has something to do with my own obstructions regarding this) but the words "there is nothing to learn" stuck out to me like they were lit up in neon.
Love!
Carson
This is how it is now.
Before that the world was full of direction signs ( another post called them synchonicitie). If you ignore the directions either externally or internally ( intuition) then the hand gets heavier.
For a long time I didn't see the external signposting. Only now do I see the obvious, in hindsight. So yes there is lots to learn externally until you switch over completely to the internal Guru. When that happens the world or the person changes significantly. The perspective shift is enormous, but that has been over time.
Because I am in tune with the internal Guru, external reflects internal almost exactly( there are times when strong emotion can block this happening......which is a good reason to get rid of all emotional blockages before this).
So, now I don't need to look out of the window as much because the internal position is all that is needed. However that means that I have an entire dream world to run around in externally and be physical with. I love that world it's a play ground. It took a while to accept this situation, it seemed very alien, then it all slipped into place and my mind stopped fighting it because it realised its proper position as an interface.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2012 : 04:26:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Some times I think the Advaita philosophy is a form of sadism, a mental equivalent of whipping.
Man, I was feeling a slight twinge of sadness arising (for some unknown reason), but upon reading that deeply insightful quip by Karl, I erupted with some gut-busting laughter. Thank you, Karl!
It's like the medieval Christians that whipped themselves as a form of penance to purge their "sins" against God. Going to war with the ego/mind.
Anyway, if anything could theoretically offend the Creator, what would be more offensive to the Creator than trying to nullify all of His creation--as the super-extreme Advaitans try to do! How about some gratitude for the gift of incarnation instead!
In a nutshell . It doesn't annoy God, just like you find it funny. No one gets marked down for trying and we all try in our own way. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2012 : 04:29:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
It is interesting to me, the concept of how manifestation comes about tho. thanks Karl
P.S. The question of, if lies become truth when the majority of people believe them, is not just happening in one place with one entity. I see it in several places, several entities. In each case the entity is thought of as being very good for the people he lies to, like a return of Jesus. But his interest is not in being good for people, only in the power and adoration.
One of many things I see happening in the world that are very exciting for me to watch, because they are new and unprecedented. I love it!
Of course, I think there are very dark forces at work, but it is not scary to me because I feel they have no power over me if I don't choose to align with them.
Remember that it's all happening in your world. |
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Namath
350 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2012 : 07:08:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Some times I think the Advaita philosophy is a form of sadism, a mental equivalent of whipping.
Man, I was feeling a slight twinge of sadness arising (for some unknown reason), but upon reading that deeply insightful quip by Karl, I erupted with some gut-busting laughter. Thank you, Karl!
It's like the medieval Christians that whipped themselves as a form of penance to purge their "sins" against God. Going to war with the ego/mind.
Anyway, if anything could theoretically offend the Creator, what would be more offensive to the Creator than trying to nullify all of His creation--as the super-extreme Advaitans try to do! How about some gratitude for the gift of incarnation instead!
Hello Bodhi Tree;
That doesn't seem the opinion of advaitic practitioners .If you ask them they will say that the teaching has helped them cease identification with the drama of the world so much and that saves them precious energy and help them not get depressed.
the teaching might not suit individuals like me & you but it's definitely helping others...that's why they are there,no?
On a side note,upon reading more in the advaitic teaching book that I threw away few days back.I find that I might have pre-judged that guru.It's obvious now that different approaches & answers are used for different individuals....With one there's sense of humour...with another there's sarcasm...with someone else a detailed answer....depends on the question and the questioner ....& some questions...My God!I would have stopped answering long time ago if I were in his/her shoes.
[img]icon_heart.gif[/img]
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Edited by - Namath on Jun 22 2012 07:44:25 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2012 : 08:08:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Remember that it's all happening in your world.
Of course! I'm sure it would be quite strange to others, but I love the strange, weird stuff. I see lots of people hurting other people, then i see the karma generated. Often instant justice, other times it is delayed. It's a very good movie. Of course i have to follow my inner guru so none of it touches me. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2012 : 10:07:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Remember that it's all happening in your world.
Of course! I'm sure it would be quite strange to others, but I love the strange, weird stuff. I see lots of people hurting other people, then i see the karma generated. Often instant justice, other times it is delayed. It's a very good movie. Of course i have to follow my inner guru so none of it touches me.
[:D ]It's OK if it touches you. |
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Life as a dream
