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Originally posted by Stillpool

What's the difference, or maybe benefit is a better word, between dropping our thinking to return to an awareness of the mantra and dropping our thinking to return to an awareness of our breath, such as in mindfulness practice? Thanks!

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Originally posted by yogani

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Originally posted by wigswest

Thanks all, for feedback. Glad to have found AYP - amazing stuff, have recommended it to friends and family.

And glad to have found this forum as well :)

Blessings.

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Hi Wigswest, and welcome! Glad you found us.

The main difference between breath meditation and deep meditation with mantra is that the mantra can continue as a vehicle to go much deeper after the breath suspends. With breath meditation, an additional vehicle (object of meditation) must be brought in to take meditation beyond the level of metabolic slow-down that is accompanied by the suspension of the breath.

This has been discussed several times before in the "other systems of spiritual practice" forum (can't remember which topic at the moment), and there it was mentioned by those with Buddhist background that in some Buddhist systems, additional objects of meditation are brought in to go beyond suspension of breath.

See this other post from today, which offers some explanation of the refinement of mantra: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=5128#44790

So the implication is that breath meditation is good as far as it goes, to suspension of the breath, and then another object is necessary to go further. What that object is can vary, depending on the system.

In deep meditation with mantra, it is all one process using one object (mantra) which refines going all the way in. This may explain the considerable differences in the experience that can occur between breath and mantra meditation, with more purification often going on with mantra, shorter sessions in general, "self-pacing" practice as necessary to avoid overdoing, etc.

In fact, in cases where a practitioner may be very sensitive to deep meditation with mantra, it has been found that breath meditation may be more appropriate for a time. See an interesting discussion on this here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=5115

Everyone is a little different in their inclinations and needs. The goal in AYP is to bring enough tools to the table so everyone will have sufficient resources to move ahead as quickly and as comfortably as desired.

All the best!

The guru is in you.

PS: Some styles of meditation involve the use of both breath and mantra at the same time. In AYP, that would be considered a distraction and a watering down of the deep meditation process. In other systems, it may be considered to be core practice. Different strokes for different folks.

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What is the difference between meditating with our technique using a
mantra, versus using chakras (energy centers in the body), a
religious icon or other physical objects? Again, it is a matter of
simplicity and efficiency. The goal is to bring the attention beyond
the thinking process, and, in doing so, take the attention beyond
outer sensory experience. The mind is the neurological process in us
that links consciousness with the outer world. It is a very intimate
connection. Our attention, engaged in the dynamics of the mind, is
always an inch away from experiencing the divine bliss of pure
consciousness. When the mind is allowed to come to rest, we are
there. So we begin with the mind, the most intimate connection to
bliss consciousness we have. We begin inside, so we can quickly and
easily go deeply inside. If we were to begin with a physical location
in the body or a physical object, we could still go deep. No question
about it. But it is a longer journey, a more complicated journey. The
further outside we are when we start, the more physical, intellectual
and emotional baggage we have to shed on the way in. This is also why
we do not verbally utter the mantra during meditation, or give any
attention to meanings while meditating. It is an inner process right
from the start. By beginning meditation with a thought, using the
specific procedure, we bypass external obstacles in the nervous
system that can bind our attention. Ultimately we dissolve them
naturally from the inside going out, rather than trying to dissolve
them from the outside going in, which is not easy.

We begin with a thought, not focusing on any meaning, just picking up
the repetition of the thought of the mantra's sound easily, on the
edge of letting go. We let the mantra go its own way naturally to
less and less – this is the simplest and most efficient way to dive
into the infinite sea of bliss consciousness within us. Having done
so repeatedly, we come back out after twenty minutes soaked with
peace and bliss, achieving much purification during the process.

In time, the distance between consciousness and outside experiences
evaporates as the obstructions become less and less. There was really
no distance at all! Then it becomes natural to experience many shades
of bliss consciousness while gazing upon chakras, religious icons,
our loved ones, beautiful landscapes, scriptures, or even a book on
theoretical physics. When bliss consciousness has arisen, everything
is seen in terms of that. But this is not the procedure of
meditation. This is enjoying the fruit of meditation – living life
with an increasing appreciation of its many gifts. The rise of this
appreciation inspires us all the more to carry on with our practice.

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Breath is a good follower in deep meditation like that. It is not a good leader in meditation. When breath is leading we are doing pranayama, and that has a different purpose than meditation. Pranayama can be very pleasant, ecstatic even, but we do not want to confuse that with meditation. We also do plenty with pranayama in AYP in other parts of our sitting practice. It is an important practice. But meditation and pranayama are separate practices with separate purposes. Pranayama is for cultivating ecstatic conductivity in the nervous system. It also paves the way, preparing the ground for deep meditation which goes much deeper, cultivating our inner silence. So there are two purposes which have profound long term results if developed in that way. That is why Patanjali has these two elements as separate limbs in the eight limbs of yoga.

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Originally posted by SeySorciere

You are indeed hindering the process if you stick to the long drawn-out, clear pronunciation. The instruction is to repeat it easily, letting the mantra move as it will, refining and drawing you ever inwards.

Enjoy


Sey

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Originally posted by Bourgo

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Originally posted by SeySorciere

You are indeed hindering the process if you stick to the long drawn-out, clear pronunciation. The instruction is to repeat it easily, letting the mantra move as it will, refining and drawing you ever inwards.

Enjoy


Sey

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I think an issue is, for lesser experienced meditators (I am still struggling with this after nearly 6 months of DM), that the term "easy repetition" doesn't have any meaning yet. The terms and descriptors used to convey the process of deep meditation are so completely foreign to a new meditator, that they almost don't make any sense and are not helpful.

That isn't to say that we can't help people, but I think to a certain degree DM is a trial-and-error with limited guidance sort of practice.....at least in the beginning.

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Originally posted by SeySorciere

Dear Bourgo,

There's really very little room for error here I bet whichever way you're repeating it you are doing it just fine. We all tend to be over-analytical that's all. We think there should be a right way to repeat - there's not - as long as you don't try to control it. If I were to tell you to say/repeat the word Wednesday - You would do it un-hesitatingly, any old how, as long as you said Wednesday, Wednesday, Wednesday.... the word would merge into each other with no clear pronunciation. At times, it will sound loud in your head, at times it will be softer. Perfectly fine. Now do the same with AYAM. Don't think about it. Just say it.
When you go off into thoughts and come back to AYAM you come back to where you left off - meaning, if it sounded loud, pick it up loud; it it had softened and was in-distinctive; pick it up soft and in-distinctive.

Peace

Sey

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Originally posted by SeySorciere

Dear Bourgo,

There's really very little room for error here I bet whichever way you're repeating it you are doing it just fine. We all tend to be over-analytical that's all. We think there should be a right way to repeat - there's not - as long as you don't try to control it. If I were to tell you to say/repeat the word Wednesday - You would do it un-hesitatingly, any old how, as long as you said Wednesday, Wednesday, Wednesday.... the word would merge into each other with no clear pronunciation. At times, it will sound loud in your head, at times it will be softer. Perfectly fine. Now do the same with AYAM. Don't think about it. Just say it.
When you go off into thoughts and come back to AYAM you come back to where you left off - meaning, if it sounded loud, pick it up loud; it it had softened and was in-distinctive; pick it up soft and in-distinctive.

Peace

Sey

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