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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
 Posted - May 19 2012 : 03:25:43 AM
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OMG, the gnostic dualism of "spirit is good, flesh is bad" is SOOO f*ing pervasive, both in the east and the west! Today I encountered it a couple of times.
First, I was participating in a religious discussion forum which I happened across while doing a Google search on "bhava." They were discussing the Ras Lila and whether or not it is "acceptable" for a devotee to have sexual feelings for Krishna (as if one could help it). All the mainstream vaishnavas and vedantists replied that the Ras Lila has NOTHING to do with sex or lust of any kind, it's only a spiritual metaphor, NOT physical. Further, the devotee should desire only to please the Lord, not to seek their own pleasure - even though, obviously, merely to be in His presence is ecstasy. And what about His pleasure? Does He not delight in the gopis? Oh, no, that's just a metaphor. Because, we all know, sex is un-spiritual (Vivekananda said so!) and Krishna would not be involved in such a debased activity. umkay. Naturally I had to put in my 2 cents worth and said essentially, "Just try and stop us." I'm going to invite the person who raised the question to AYP, as she is feeling kind of alone right now and would be in good company here among unashamed lovers of God, of which there are many here.
Then I got an email from a Christian friend with whom I was discussing practicing the Presence and she said her priest told her to disregard any feelings of bliss or ecstasy as "delusion," so as to "avoid sinking into a pit of pleasure." Because, "we're not here for our own pleasure, we're here to do God's will." Again, what about His pleasure? What if it pleases Him to fill you with ecstasy? Was He not thinking about that when He created our nervous system? Personally I find His Love/bliss/ecstasy makes me that much more able to do His will, because everything flows effortlessly and there is compassion for everyone. When we are not receiving from the Source we have nothing to give...
Anyway, once again I must say how very much I appreciate AYP for its extremely balanced approach to spirituality which integrates all our human faculties, including sexuality, into the yogic process. It is very rare (the only other school I know of that does this consistently is HOY) and very needed!! |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 03:35:38 AM
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quote:
Naturally I had to put in my 2 cents worth and said essentially, "Just try and stop us."
hahaha awesome reply....
ayp rocks  |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 7:17:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
this lesson is very good:
http://www.aypsite.org/113.html
Yes - I especially like what he said,
"That One is pure bliss consciousness coexisting within all the (ecstatic) processes of nature. When it gets to this stage, we become a channel for an unending flow of divine love." |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 7:24:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
and this reply from yogani is excellent
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#22223
Sigh. (rolls eyes). Kind of glad I wasn't here for that discussion in 2007. This is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to. I really appreciate Yogani's response as well as Christi and Kirtanman and others who "get" it!
Note, with regard to Mufad's final post with the quote by Yogananda re: Adam and Eve and "sexuality" being the forbidden apple, I completely reject that artificially imposed interpretation of scripture. SRF's sex-negative stance was my only real disagreement with that system which I practiced (kriya) for about 30 years and otherwise found very beneficial. |
Edited by - Radharani on May 22 2012 04:55:13 AM |
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cff
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2012 : 9:54:39 PM
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| After about 1 month of celibacy, twice daily meditation, and no craving for sex or masturbation. I decided to have sex. I did so twice and stopped meditating for 1-2 days. Result? Starting from scratch. I understand perfectly the stance they have. It blew my sadhana like a castle of cards. What happened? Imho: inner contradictions and systems of belief of imcompatibility between sexual life and enlightenment. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2012 : 02:31:22 AM
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dear cff
in order to avoid feeling depleted,yogis(at least here in ayp) cultivate the sexual energy ,they do not just preserve it and/or avoid sex...
have a look at the tantra lessons...
imho we are humans becoming gods...so it is good to keep the human element,dont you think?
all the best |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2012 : 05:09:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cff
After about 1 month of celibacy, twice daily meditation, and no craving for sex or masturbation. I decided to have sex. I did so twice and stopped meditating for 1-2 days. Result? Starting from scratch. I understand perfectly the stance they have. It blew my sadhana like a castle of cards. What happened? Imho: inner contradictions and systems of belief of imcompatibility between sexual life and enlightenment.
Dear cff,
Yes, that is probably what happened: "inner contradictions... belief of incompatibility between sexual life and enlightenment." Our own beliefs, whether conscious or not, including those we have internalized from religion and society, have a huge impact on how sex will affect us.
And there are different kinds of "celibacy." On the one hand there is the sex-negative approach being advocated by these folks (e.g. SRF) as mentioned above, where you basically repress your sexuality and try not to think about it or, at best, try to sublimate it by digging ditches, lifting weights, etc. This can be marginally successful and usually only for limited periods of time, and not healthy sexually, psychologically or spiritually. On the other hand, there is the sex-positive approach where you accept, cultivate and offer up your sexuality so that it can be useful in your spiritual life (as advocated by AYP and HOY) - the deeper understanding of "bramacharya." As my priest told me when I became a Sister, "Celibacy is not saying 'no' to sex, it is saying 'yes' to God."
I practiced the latter form of "celibacy" for 14 years and was completely happy and fulfilled and prepared to continue it the rest of my life. Then 7 years ago, quite unexpectedly, I met my partner and began a tantric relationship, which also has been very fulfilling as well as quite beneficial to my spiritual life. Essentially, "bramacharya" properly understood is preserving, cultivating and offering up the sexual energies, whether with or without a partner - not ignoring or repressing. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2012 : 08:00:25 AM
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God gave us the ability to become enlightened, and he also gave us sexual energy. Many people have discovered that sexual energy can be moved away from the sex organs, so by definition it is no longer sex.
So it is just that part of the body which is probably bad. We should never go to the bathroom, and try to not think about it at all. We should follow the SRF practice of meditating for hours everyday, and keep your mind off the need to go to the bathroom. Maybe you will find God this way. Haha  |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2012 : 1:01:08 PM
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IMNSHO., brahmacharya is the most frequently lost-in-translation part of yoga. I wish it weren't a Yama, because it can be (and has been, for centuries) exaggerated by various religions to include practically anything except the how-to of mastering the life force...
I tend to admire honest spiritual leaders who live in celibacy for their own sake, but I'm extremely skeptical of sheep-herd leaders who try to persuade the whole world that their path is the only one possible. Ideas like "h*ll" have proven surprisingly useful in manipulating others. Therefore, people have invented perfectly logical prayers like this:
Why Worry? Blessing for St Patrick's Day
In the end, there are only two things to worry about:
either you are well or you are sick.
When you're well, there is nothing to worry about.
But if you're sick, then there are two things to worry about:
either you get well or you will die.
When you get well, there is nothing to worry about.
But when you die, then there are two things to worry about:
either you'll go to heaven or you'll go to h*ll.
When you go to heaven, there is nothing to worry about.
But when you go to h*ll, you'll be so damn busy shaking hands with friends, you won't have time to worry!
SO WHY WORRY!?
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Edited by - HathaTeacher on May 26 2012 09:15:54 AM |
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cff
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 07:02:15 AM
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imho, after seeing my sadhana being destroyed and being cannibalized by low spirits in my dreams,
i have come to the understanding that for me, and probably for many others,
sexual lust or sexual desires are a manifestation of overall desires and from these desires grows egotism.
for as long as one has desires in one's heart, it is impossible to be free of egotism.
i find therefore better for my sadhana to follow lord krishna's recommendation as he says in his Gita to Arjun "desiring such perfection, one practices celibacy".
When I abstracted from sexual lust and vanquished sexual thoughts by spinal breathing pranayama, I had even the mental capacity to withhold my mind in 1 area and just do pranayama, after sex, my mind was rendered tremendously dull in comparison.
it is true that while I was in the act of sex, my personal pleasure and during those days was paramount, this lodged itself in my aura and I ended up attracting unwelcoming visits from sprites and such beings who then came to me in dreams.
i can't help but notice the parallel and simultaneous rise of egotism and sexual desire.
because i ever want to tred the path of perfection, it is at this moment best for me to go celibacy in the full strictness of the term, as recognized by Krishna.
The more I indulged in the sexual pleasure, the more my mind becomes unruly when it comes to sadhana; before, sexual thoughts would never arise, now, they do. it really is impressive the effect Ive seen it have. it goes beyond far more than personal beliefs and i understand more the position of SRF and the such who advocate celibacy. |
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cff
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 07:38:43 AM
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| I do not see the problem in the sexual act itself but rather in what it did to my state of mind. Its definitely a good lesson to have. The words of the lord ring ever clear in my mind now: "desiring such perfection, one practices celibacy" |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 05:38:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cff
imho, after seeing my sadhana being destroyed and being cannibalized by low spirits in my dreams,
i have come to the understanding that for me, and probably for many others,
sexual lust or sexual desires are a manifestation of overall desires and from these desires grows egotism.
for as long as one has desires in one's heart, it is impossible to be free of egotism.
i find therefore better for my sadhana to follow lord krishna's recommendation as he says in his Gita to Arjun "desiring such perfection, one practices celibacy".
When I abstracted from sexual lust and vanquished sexual thoughts by spinal breathing pranayama, I had even the mental capacity to withhold my mind in 1 area and just do pranayama, after sex, my mind was rendered tremendously dull in comparison.
it is true that while I was in the act of sex, my personal pleasure and during those days was paramount, this lodged itself in my aura and I ended up attracting unwelcoming visits from sprites and such beings who then came to me in dreams.
i can't help but notice the parallel and simultaneous rise of egotism and sexual desire.
because i ever want to tred the path of perfection, it is at this moment best for me to go celibacy in the full strictness of the term, as recognized by Krishna.
The more I indulged in the sexual pleasure, the more my mind becomes unruly when it comes to sadhana; before, sexual thoughts would never arise, now, they do. it really is impressive the effect Ive seen it have. it goes beyond far more than personal beliefs and i understand more the position of SRF and the such who advocate celibacy.
hmm... cff, did you read the Gita in Sanskrit or English? I ask because when Lord Krishna recommended "celibacy" what word did He use? i.e. did he say "bramacharya," and if so, what is the actual translation of that? As HathTeacher pointed out, "bramacharya" is often mistranslated.
By the way, do you agree, then, with those who claim that Lord Krishna was "celibate" with the gopis?
Also, if it's not too personal a question, the sex act which resulted in spiritual dissipation and the destruction of your sadhana - did that involve release, or preservation?? I would assume the former. Bramacharya practiced correctly results in the sexual energy being transmuted and is beneficial to the spiritual life.
Having practiced "celibacy" myself for many years I know that it can be beneficial if done correctly. However, if sexual desire is there and you are merely avoiding it or trying to repress it, there is no benefit because you are in denial and eventually you will have to deal with that energy and learn how to work with it in a positive spiritual manner. |
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cff
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 09:56:20 AM
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There was preservation. I haven't ejaculated in about a month.
The correct sanskrit word spoken by the Lord was indeed "Brahmacharya".
Lord Krishna had 8 wives, many with whom he had children.
To be honest, to me it doesn't matter whether he had sex with all the Gopis at once, separately, or wtv. These circumstances are of very little weight in comparison with the teachings.
The destruction of sadhana did not come from (imho) from the sexual act itself. But from the results of the sexual act on my mind-ego. It created reinforcement for my egotism.
"Egotism means placing oneself at the core of one's world with no concern for others, including those loved or considered as "close," in any other terms except those set by the egotist." from wiki
But since I don't care about my sadhana beings destroyed, I kept on having sex lol. I've decided to stop ass-piring to be a yogi according to scriptures or words of great sages and rather follow my natural flow. In fact, this came after a lot of advice from my guides, last of which they told me in a dream, I need to take my head out of my ass lol! |
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cff
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 10:36:05 AM
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But then again, Radharani, pleasure or desires go hand in hand as one always desires always for pleasure. It is that pleasure which envigors passion and desires; desires which cause for reincarnation in these lower worlds and difficult states again and again. It is the desire of the male pig who enjoys sexual pleasure with the female pig which binds the supreme consciousness to incarnating as a pig for life after life.
Likewise for humans who enjoy the pleasures of sex or any other pleasure which creates the pleasure heavens that we all go to after death; it is the same desire for more pleasure still present after death which binds one to be reborn even after all karma has been paid.
In other words, people who endulge always in carnal pleasure will be reborn in these carnal worlds as their desires for pleasure will not diminish and their minds will be wrapped on the pleasure seeking tendencies after death; whether they roam the world as ghosts or ascend to the heavenly places, they will both decide to be reborn in order to experience that physical pleasure again and again.
That being said Radharani, I understand why sages and many beings who have risen above their own passions and through tapas or meditation achieved ever more expanded states of consciousness look down at you and me as you and I look down on the male pig and pity his desire for pig incarnation after death, in such difficult state of existence.
It is also the pleasure in this world which binds the supreme consciousness to seeking physical and phenomenal sense pleasure. Because of this, many souls have to take lives of very intense pain, torture and suffering. Just like the Mind when it creates the heavenly pleasure gardens can't evolve past satisfying constantly their own desires who come endless and ever more binding. That's why I believe the buddhists and hindus have explained that when one reaches the creative aspect of the Mind after death, since there are so many unfulfilled desires still lodged in the heart, the first thing the Mind does is manifest all those unfulfilled human desires, thus creating a heavenly setting with very beautiful women and men, and delicious foods and garnments, etc...
It is in fact "suffering" and not pleasure which is liberating. This is why at times sages will not hesitate in framing for you a life of pain and suffering, because only then will you look down on this world and develop the ever liberating vayragya, which you need in order to progress in your meditation.
In a sense, in order to cut ourselves from pleasure, there needs to be pain, otherwise we would never have moved past the form of worms, eagles, dogs, pigs, or in what regards us now, human form.
It is in my opinion Radharani because pleasure is strong in your heart that you will create a heavenly setting for yourself once you reach your higher forms after this life concludes, and also why you will take rebirth as a woman; if fact, it will be your guides who will rip you away from the heavens you have created because if let to yourself, not in a million years there will you progress one drop; is heavens not your enemy? What about those higher forms of existence of which we know but very little as humans, but who the great sages always have spoken about? Is pleasure now not your greatest enemy as it lives insidiously in your heart?
I also understand that lying to oneself or being in denial does not move one further along any path.
Jesus said "Resist not evil".
Although the SRF people are not all enlightened beings, their founders however had in mind these concepts on how creation and reincarnation works. They knew that higher vibration take over lower ones.
The case of Krishna is different, and it is always different for all Poorn-avatars. All beings born without the veil of Maya are in constant contact with God. For them, there is already no greater bliss or form to attain. I do not know your personal goals in meditation, but it was Krishna in his next life as the Buddha who suffered tremendously before attaining that glory once more, only this time, not being born into it, but rather climbing his way to the top of the mountain.
This being said, Buddha is more beloved than Krishna in this world because he attained such exalted state out of his own merit through his own effort. In the Krishna form, Krishna is immune to the effects of pleasure. In the Siddharta form, Vishnu had to run away from pleasure. In the Buddha form, Vishnu was immune from pleasure.
My dear Radharani, how are you and I to contemplate what the Buddha spoke of when he ordered his kotis to all be abstinent?
The ignorance of sensual pleasure that comes through denial seems to be more beneficial for those who seek liberation from this wheel. Then again, when you reach the state of Krishna or Buddha, like these beings are, you can eat meat, have sex, or anything, it doesn't matter anymore because the highest vibration in your mind at the time of death will be the cosmic consciousness, and by the Law of Vibration, you will be sucked back there as there's no vibration above it and samsara is left behind like a forgotten memory.
To me although you may or may not disagree, pleasure is like in SFR and the teachings of old sages, is the bane of the soul. It guarantees reincarnation as a worm, or bird, or fish, or fly or human; each time imprinted by the pleasure of the particular nature it is reborn into.
I don't think that priest knows anything about how the creative process works, little less about God who is the Supreme Consciousness from where everything comes and that we are. When he says, we're not here because of pleasure, I think quite to the contrary, we are here because we want the pleasure that's found here; that's why we came in the first place anyways.
The path of light which is the pleasure path is very slow. I am ever seeing how the rough path of darkness which is the path of Earthly pain and constant human suffering which brings detachment and worldly revulsion is the only means for the Supreme Consciousness to leave this world into the Angelic Realm. I admire those beings who take such difficult forms and lives, they more than myself in my own pleasure seeking tendencies will rise above longing, pleasure, and egotism. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 11:12:49 PM
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| Sounds like heavy indoctrination to me. I believe in being true to ones direct experience and taking from tradition what rings true, but realizing that just because something was written in some great scripture does not mean that it is always right. It also makes me smile to see the analogy of a pig (which is usually seen as a dirty crude animal) and not one of the wolf or bird or lion, or any other creature since all creatures on earth enjoy sex or they would never exist. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2012 : 02:49:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cff
There was preservation. I haven't ejaculated in about a month.
The correct sanskrit word spoken by the Lord was indeed "Brahmacharya".
Lord Krishna had 8 wives, many with whom he had children.
To be honest, to me it doesn't matter whether he had sex with all the Gopis at once, separately, or wtv. These circumstances are of very little weight in comparison with the teachings.
The destruction of sadhana did not come from (imho) from the sexual act itself. But from the results of the sexual act on my mind-ego. It created reinforcement for my egotism.
"Egotism means placing oneself at the core of one's world with no concern for others, including those loved or considered as "close," in any other terms except those set by the egotist." from wiki
But since I don't care about my sadhana beings destroyed, I kept on having sex lol. I've decided to stop ass-piring to be a yogi according to scriptures or words of great sages and rather follow my natural flow. In fact, this came after a lot of advice from my guides, last of which they told me in a dream, I need to take my head out of my ass lol!
Dear cff,
Thank you for your thoughtful commentary.
It's very interesting that despite your own admission of having your head up your @ss, you nonetheless feel qualified to tell me what is in my heart and where I am going after this life. I'm kind of suprised you didn't even give me brownie points for the 14 years of celibacy. LOL!
Also interesting, you mentioned that the real cause of your sadhana being destroyed wasn't sex per se, it was egotism. I would agree, and as someone who has practiced more than my share of asceticism in this lifetime, I must point out that ascetic practices can actually feed the ego even more so than pleasure, leading to pride and a false sense of superiority.
As to your concern about my desires and where they will lead, I am happy to inform you that after 36 years on this path, having begun at 13, my one burning desire (my "goal" in meditation, as you put it) has been fulfilled. I wanted Him, and about a year ago my prayer was answered and I now have the constant awareness of the Divine presence as my Reality.
As for "pleasure," there is simply nothing, NOTHING that can compare with even one small taste of God! All earthly pleasures are just echoes of His splendor. In my path as a bhakti-tantrika I receive them with gratitude and offer them all back to Him. Every breath, every kiss of sunshine, the caress of the breeze, the scent of flowers, every bite of food, every tantric embrace, music, dance, all an offering to Him, the only enjoyer. I also give Him every pain, tear and unhappiness to be transformed - everything, all experiences. That is what bhakti-crazed lovers of God do. We desire Him with our whole being, body and soul, and make our entire life an offering.
Yes, the desire for worldly things draws us back to reincarnate - until our desire for God is greater than our desire for the world, in which case we go Home to God. I completely trust His promise in the Gita, especially since He has already fulfilled it in this life. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that He is the only doer and the only enjoyer, and I only exist to please Him. I am free in Him, and as long as I have Him all other considerations about the future, etc. are moot.
I'm not suggesting that my path is for everyone. It's pretty extreme. And as the AYP Lessons indicate, sex/tantra is optional. Although "bramacharya" per se is NOT celibacy - again, that is a mistranslation! http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=2242#2242 - you can certainly be celibate, if that is your calling, and have a successful spiritual practice.
What I am objecting to (going back to the beginning of this thread) is the ascetic gnostic dualism that is so pervasive both in the East and the West, which says that spirit is good, flesh is bad, and that in order to "get to God" (as if God is absent!) we must crucify our humanity, repress our God-given human feelings and avoid relationships. This is a damaging philosophy which leads to dysfunction, not enlightenment. My teacher is actively involved in repairing this damage. AYP likewise advocates a healthy, balanced approach where spiritual practices are integrated into a normal human life in the world, not an escape from life.
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Edited by - Radharani on May 31 2012 02:54:45 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2012 : 06:29:40 AM
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| Victor your reply is excellent...thx |
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cff
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2012 : 09:08:46 AM
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I tried explaining why the dualism is "pervasive". The consequences of pleasure are pervasive; have you not seen the state of this world?
I think the pervasiveness is part of the primary response to something which causes shock upon realization, which is always a 180° response. Like a young adolescent who falls in love and gets cheated on and then says all women are cheaters.
Tbh, I am not concerned with your desires, nor if you chose to incarnate again and again; to be this is not a matter above you, but of your own choosing, so it doesn't concern me. I just tried pointing out the observation which led the ascetics to make such a claim that flesh is bad, and it was that pleasure and desires (objects of the senses, or flesh) are the main obstacle to spiritual unfoldment and a perpetual cause of reincarnation and further suffering; to which some on the forum mentioned this to be indoctrination. I understand I am very passionate about this type of knowledge from scriptures, or self-knowledge, but then again, I am but a speckle of dust in AYP. ^_____^
Like you mentioned, that gnostic dualism does indeed cause dysfunction, yet, imo it is based on the fact that pleasure seeking tendencies have made this world what it currently is, a living hell of abuse and egotism.
Although their view is immature, imo they have a drop of truth, it is that truth I tried to resurface only to be branded; but as Krishna said on Self-Knowledge, "It is the purest knowledge, it is the King of education and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion, it is everlasting and joyfully performed."
Unlike so many of you long time practicioners, one such as myself has no choice but to abide and take humble refuge in Guru and take all his lessons as Undeniable Law or Fact or Indoctrination; hence my passion and stance on certain scriptures.
When I myself will have further realizations, perhaps those you all have, then it shall be a different matters, but even there I doubt I will use such pejorative terms such as indoctrination to qualify knowledge which has served me in my own path of unfoldment, however meager its contribution.
My dear, Radharani, why should I congratulate you on achievements in a illusory world... to me it's strange to congratulate you for your 14 years of celibacy, let alone 1000 years of abstinence. Is it difficult what you did? Certainly, I don't think I'd be able to do it, is it meaningful? Where has it brought you? Only you can answer that. Ultimately I don't congratulate you on any of these things not because I look down on them, but because I wouldn't congratulate myself on them if I had made them.
If I am to congratulate you on something it's upon waking up to whatever degree you have; my stance was not directed at your practices although I explained on a personal level what I think constitutes Natural Law and applies to everyone, because I spoke to you, I made the example of you, to you. Because I think it's a lot easier for you (or anyone) to look into the truth in your own heart, rather than in the heart of others.
But your evolution is not really a concern for me, nor is the spiritual evolution of anyone on this planet; and if I am involved as I am in the spirituality of anyone to whatever degree I am, it is not on a basis of desire, but of duty or dharma which in part is to repay all of the grace and blessings I have been given by countless beings.
In any case, my post wasn't about you, it was about the stance you think is pervasive; and that although the stance is immature, I think is valid consider the state this world is currently in. |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2012 : 4:08:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
Every breath, every kiss of sunshine, the caress of the breeze, the scent of flowers, every bite of food, every tantric embrace, music, dance, all an offering... I also give Him every pain, tear and unhappiness to be transformed...
Thank you Radharani! This reads very inspiring to me. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2012 : 03:22:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cff
I tried explaining why the dualism is "pervasive". The consequences of pleasure are pervasive; have you not seen the state of this world?
It could be argued that it is not pleasure per se, but rather (as you have mentioned) egotism/attachment that is the cause of the suffering in this world. Further, my teacher would say that a large part of the problem is the cultural/ religious conditioning which imposes guilt on pleasure, thereby compounding the situation by creating a neurotic fusion of attachment and avoidance. This neurosis results in all sorts of negative and harmful behaviors towards ourselves and others.
quote:
as Krishna said on Self-Knowledge, "It is the purest knowledge, it is the King of education and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion, it is everlasting and joyfully performed."
Yes! but what is that knowledge? It is to know God, not just in an intellectual sense, but experientially. And that is the purpose of our yoga practice. The more we taste that inner delight of His sweet presence, the less power worldly desires have over us. As I said, all other pleasures pale in comparison and need not be a threat to our spiritual well-being if we hold firmly onto Him.
quote:
My dear, Radharani, why should I congratulate you on achievements in a illusory world... to me it's strange to congratulate you for your 14 years of celibacy, let alone 1000 years of abstinence. Is it difficult what you did? Certainly, I don't think I'd be able to do it, is it meaningful? Where has it brought you?
My dear cff, I was being facetious (hence the "LOL"); but, you seemed to imply that because of my [alleged] desire for pleasure I will reincarnate as a woman or perhaps a female pig. I thought I would at least get credit for the 14 years of celibacy since, according to some advocates of asceticism, 12 years will result in liberation! - which it didn't; that did not happen until 6 years later, during my present tantric relationship.
Was celibacy difficult? Yeah, it was difficult to get enough sleep when my evening meditations went on for hours with the incredible ecstatic Love of God pouring through every cell in my body. And it was sometimes difficult to take part in necessary worldly activities when I would rather have been meditating and I resented having to participate in the world. Otherwise, celibacy was quite easy for me.
Being in a relationship is MUCH more difficult!! At first I really missed the silence, the simplicity, the lack of arguments, and all the time available for prayer/ meditation. However, being in a relationship has definitely given me more opportunities for spiritual growth! It is easy to become selfish and prideful as a solitary monastic, whereas living with my partner has made me grow in charity, humility, kindness, service, etc. I truly value my years of alone time with the Lord, and I'm sure it was beneficial, but paradoxically, I didn't have the continual awareness of His presence that I do now, despite being a very busy householder with many stressful situations and way less time for meditation.
As far as any concerns about reincarnation: being in His presence, losing my increasingly transparent self in Him, is Heaven even here in this world. My heart and mind are constantly on Him and He knows I only want Him. Therefore I believe His promise that I will go to Him at death and be united with Him forever. (Gita 8:5-8) I completely trust Him to do as He wishes with me or whatever (if anything) remains of "me."
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Edited by - Radharani on Jun 01 2012 03:24:13 AM |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2012 : 03:11:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by HathaTeacher
quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
Every breath, every kiss of sunshine, the caress of the breeze, the scent of flowers, every bite of food, every tantric embrace, music, dance, all an offering... I also give Him every pain, tear and unhappiness to be transformed...
Thank you Radharani! This reads very inspiring to me.
Thank you, HathaTeacher. It is an honor to be able to inspire you. |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2012 : 6:38:40 PM
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aum
gratitude for this thought provoking insightful post, divine radharani. especially your wisdom.
it is joyful to read each of your posts- maheswari (always profound); cff (the disciplined yogi); victor; and hatha teacher- gratitude for your wisdom.
most religions and belief systems are afraid to confront the realm of wholeness and especially sexuality as those who do step out of the b*lls**t to be directly in union with source.
the graduation from each chakra to the next is fullfillment. some who choose celibacy are those who are already fulfilled. the pass marks through the graduation is joy.
our siddhar sages say the sexual orgasm is chit-inbum (micro pleasure) and the vaster cosmic orgasm attained as per-inbum (eternal pleasure)- the stream that leads us to the ocean. this pathway is liberating.
wholeness is liberating. as a thread of consciousness that grows through the experience of sensuality as the key to divinity as much as divinity that blossoms sensuality, the soul as witness is nurtured. slowly we attain the the seedless fruit of detachment as in being whole and complete- not wanting anything from outside to fulfill ourselves.
buddha's path of liberation as in teachings led the tibetan tantric buddhist to find even more wholeness as in mastery through experience. the thread within this attainment is in recognizing the root chakra's potent blessings along the way of consciousness. lord ganapathy's path is victory.
so its great to graduate!:)
aum
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2012 : 02:40:25 AM
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pleasure is bad
