|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 24 2012 : 02:34:36 AM
|
Hi Delara,
It's useful to let go of the idea that a feeling belongs to someone else, or a feeling belongs to you, or a thought belongs to someone else, or it belongs to you. There isn't any truth in it, and it doesn't really help with practices.
The same can be said for obstacles or obstructions in the nervous system. They cannot be said to "belong" to anyone.
Best just to let go into silence and let things work themselves out.
All the best.  |
 |
|
|
Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2012 : 02:42:00 AM
|
101% true Christi ...that's why I said it's a waste of energy to identify to whom it belongs.
Ironically you find yourself crying with someone you thought you dislike...or be surprised by the thoughts of someone you love .
I'm learning to let go though... |
|
|
|
Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2012 : 03:23:24 AM
|
Hi Delara,
That's great.
The more you let go, the more you realize that it isn't about "you", and it isn't about "anybody else". Things are happening, or appear to be happening, in silence, in awareness...
Then you start to enter the mystery. And it becomes beautiful and fascinating at the same time. It can also be a bit frightening in the beginning, so take everything at your own pace. |
|
|
|
BenQuiet
Thailand
12 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2012 : 03:47:39 AM
|
Hi,
Well said Chas, Karl and Carson, beautiful. To take this a little deeper to the still source that is our beingness, "Who is the 'I' that thinks it has control?". Yes this is Advaita (Jnana Yoga) a very direct perspective to find out really who we are. And then we find out that there never was anyone home anyway = Life Itself Living Life. Experientially i know that the only free will we have is where we choose to put our ATTENTION!!
Here in the relative illusory world (all mind made) as a body/mind separate entity we think we have free will, but as Chas pointed out it is all mind and conditioning that governs what we think we choose to DO.
The world = mind = time.
We need to transcend the mind and not be its slave with it's beliefs, likes/dislikes, concepts etc... When we put attention on watching the mind and all the crap it contains we stand back and be the silent observer or witness of all that seems to be going on, externally and internally (actually there is no outside or inside). Eventually we find ourselves at the threshold of the open door. As a silent witness without clinging, sticking, velcroing to anything that arises within the mind, it slows down and a tremendous peace ensues.
Attention is like a laser with our energy. If we keep indulging/focusing on a problem for example it accumulates more energy and doesn't leave us alone. Thoughts are just bundles of energy, leave them alone. I forget who said it "If you ignore a friend he will stop visiting you". The more we get out of the head and into the heart, the happier we are. As all sages point out (Robert Adams comes to mind) the best way to help the troubles in the world is for the Self to realize the Self.
That is our FREEWILL, where we put our ATTENTION! |
|
|
|
Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2012 : 05:44:48 AM
|
Thanx Christi :)
BenQuiet :) Robert Adams has been coming to my mind today!I love that being.
I'm sure everyone said the truth in their own way & I'm grateful but for some reason I can listen to someone all day & not grasp a word...while one word from another & i have instant understanding ...It's something within me has nothing to do with the speaker.
thank you all...I'm at peace now & wish to exist this conversation
Love |
|
|
|
chas
USA
209 Posts |
|
|
BenQuiet
Thailand
12 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2012 : 11:29:55 AM
|
Hi,
Yes, thanks Cha. I am still getting acquainted with more and more of this awesome website.
Yogani says it all quite well with easy understanding. All sages will speak as either from the relative or the Absolute, depending upon the listener or the pointer to be elaborated, but it is always coming from Source as there is no blockage/filter by a conditioned mind.
I love when Nisargadatta speaks about the Gita, where you can understand as Arjuna or Krishna. I prefer to be and respond as Krishna. As ye think, so shall ye be. |
Edited by - BenQuiet on Apr 24 2012 11:34:05 AM |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2012 : 2:06:46 PM
|
Hi Anthem
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
I didn't get the impression that you were trying to say yoga isn't useful.
Yeah, in hindsight it's obvious that that was a projection. 
It's interesting to me... noticing that there are feelings of expecting persecution or some sort of backlash for stepping out of "the yoga paradigm." Not totally sure what that's all about, but it's obvious that it's all me. Thanks for helping me to see that.
Love!
Carson  |
|
|
|
Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2012 : 05:35:39 AM
|
I love your post, etherfish, where you say "That makes sense to me. I have never understood when people say we have no free will, or we have no control, or we can't change our thoughts. From my perspective, those things are not true. ". 
When the thought "I have no control or free will, or it's all illusion" sneaks through the back door of my mind, it's as if I permit myself not to do what I know it's good for me or others, leading to inertia and the slowing of the process. I thought that perhaps this perception of mine is because of the lack of the Witness, but anyway I wanted to share it for teachers to know the reactions that those thoughts produce in people like me
Reading Yogananda or "Thought Power" by Sivananda gives me a boost in energy and will to do what I like and what I know it's good. They tell us to strenghten our will and don't act because of habbits and inertia.
Much love |
Edited by - Will Power on Apr 28 2012 05:39:04 AM |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2012 : 07:29:40 AM
|
It's the context. On one level you appear to have all those things, on another you have none of them because they are not required. You don't need matches when you are fire, you don't need to drink when you are water.
Suffering is only apparent because you think in separation, until you no longer think in separation then suffering is real, but it's not a switch ( at least it wasn't in my experience).
Best way is to follow the practises and ignore the scenery. It's really the only route. When we have discussions like this, they are largely on a philosophic level. That does not mean that they are purely intellectual. Some of us are talking from a different perspective and because of that it can be meaningless except as a concept.
I always think of the words in the film The Matrix.....unfortunately no one can tell you what the Matrix is, you have to be shown it. Morpheus apologised to Neo after he had been released from the Matrix. This was because the Matrix was just as real to those who were part of it, as those that were not and once Neo was free from it, he was unable to return, regardless of his beliefs. These were the elements of the Red and Blue pills, just as meditation and Bhakti are the red pills and the blue is to remain in blissful ignorance.
Of course the film is only a metaphor, much like these discussions, in that it tries to describe a different perspectives. It is conceptual but maybe it can help to understand what's going on.
I agree with you that is largely unhelpful, except if you at at a cross roads and the barriers are beginning to dissolve, then it might give a vital clue.
|
|
|
|
chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2012 : 10:55:57 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Will Power
When the thought "I have no control or free will, or it's all illusion" sneaks through the back door of my mind, it's as if I permit myself not to do what I know it's good for me or others, leading to inertia and the slowing of the process. I thought that perhaps this perception of mine is because of the lack of the Witness, but anyway I wanted to share it for teachers to know the reactions that those thoughts produce in people like me
Hi Will Power,
Thanks for sharing.
Earlier, the subject was approached through a logic and science oriented view. It can be helpful in relieving resistance and suffering for various reasons. It did in my case. It was a relief for the mind to have a better understanding of how it works, and helped to be more firmly established in awareness.
It's not an inability to choose. Choices are still as relevant and necessary as they ever were.
If the idea of free will- what ever it may be according to the individual- is replaced with a negative idea, I can see how that is not accurate or helpful. If we can't help but come to a negative conclusion, don't believe it...It can't be true. If a definite answer is necessary, go with what you are inclined and forget the rest.
On the other hand, if one sees the body and mind more like a fluid system in a fluid environment, that would be a closer- positive effect of the information. So, it can be helpful, but is not necessarily helpful. If it were helpful, it seems it would be based on a thorough investigation of the workings of the brain and/or inner observation; each of these are beyond my capability to communicate, thus the Harris links posted earlier.
Still, these and all other bits of information, opinions, and philosophies are not the Truth... the Truth is in you.
[img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
Edited by - chas on Apr 29 2012 11:00:10 AM |
|
|
|
Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2012 : 2:08:31 PM
|
Thanks for your comments, Karl and Chas.
The Matrix is such a good film. I'd like the red pill
And Chas I'll look for the Truth in me.
Love! |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2012 : 4:47:59 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Will Power
Thanks for your comments, Karl and Chas.
The Matrix is such a good film. I'd like the red pill
And Chas I'll look for the Truth in me.
Love!
You already did, you just haven't realised it. |
|
|
|
Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 09:02:57 AM
|
I had some thoughts and figured this would be a reasonable thread to post them in: any insight is appreciated.
Earlier this morning, on my way to work, a 4-lane highway was shut down and funneled onto a single exit (this is Chicago rush hour, so a huge number of cars....after I got to work (much, much later) I looked up the reason for the shut down. It was a deadly car crash.
A person was drinking a bottle of vodka while driving and went the wrong way on the highway, killing someone in the process. Here is where I need insight: To me, this act seems stupid, careless, tragic and any other number of negative descriptors that I won't bother to list. I am not far along enough in my practices to know how to view this in any other way, and I have a hard time understanding how everyone could be "one" so to speak. How can I be part of the same fabric as the ignorant waste-of-humanity that just murdered someone in an act of careless stupidity? I am appalled and horrified at such an act, and frankly am just as horrified that someday I might realize that this person and I are indistinguishable.
Please help me understand this. Thanks all.
Best,
Bourgo |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 10:32:43 AM
|
The simple fact is that understanding has nothing to do with it. You can come to terms with it, but you have to at least begun to have inner silence and the rise of the witness before it starts to become even slightly clear.
In the everyday world you experience, then these things are judged as good and bad. It gives a sense of 'right way up' and is measured by your inner nature and values. Just like the inner ear determines your position..
If you were suddenly transported into outer space then your inner ear would be useless at determining your position because up and down are only relative positions on earth.
This is very much like discovering the self that is free of the illusionary self. These things don't have a good and a bad, or a right and a wrong, they just 'are' and so cannot be judged because there is no reference point. Everything is unfolding exactly as it is supposed to.
The experience of the everyday world is personal, separate. That isn't how it is really, everything is connected to everything else. It's just one big ' everything' of which you are inclusive.
So, in the re- discovered self there is no one and nothing to blame because blame is a product of the illusory self, neither is it accepted, because acceptance, equally has no meaning.
That might seem like a sterile idea on the surface, but it isn't. That part can't be explained because it makes even less sense. It can be considered an outpouring of divine love into everything, from everything, action without reaction. It helps to free everything from suffering, not all at once, but as it is needed for everything to unfold as it does and as part of it.
Probably doesn't help much, but understand that you cannot accept what you see, because you are not yet ready, don't expect to accept it. Instead accept those thoughts, view them with as much dispassion as you can muster. That is as much as is possible. Do the practices and everything will unfold because it must.
|
Edited by - karl on Apr 30 2012 10:36:25 AM |
|
|
|
Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 12:14:47 PM
|
So.... if good and bad do not actually exist, it would seem that similar terms that you've used such as love and suffering are equally incapable of being separated from their perceived counterparts (i.e. hate and contentment, respectively). Also, this would mean that everything unfolding exactly as it is supposed to, should not be a workable concept either... it would seem that supposed to is exactly the same as not supposed to.
Maybe it is my physical, rational mind that simply cannot understand this with logic, but this is just how it seems to me.
P.S. If love and hate are essentially the same thing, how can all of this not be sterile? Purpose becomes the same as no purpose. Why should anything exist at all? Why is empty space not all there is in the universe if these things are true? |
Edited by - Bourgo on Apr 30 2012 12:21:50 PM |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 1:25:21 PM
|
This is why it is difficult.
Good and bad do exist from the perspective of the world around you. There isn't a 'don't really exist". Think more like a volume control. They exist when they do and not when they don't. That applies to everything.
It isn't exactly the love that you are familiar with. It is universal, very pure, in and of everything. It is the love that exists between the I and awareness. Unity. However, it spills over into daily life, but is coloured by illusional self.
It's easier to go with unfolding. It's creation at work.
None of this matters at all. You just asked the question to help you understand. I can only do that from direct knowledge and it isn't complete and never will be. I don't need to know, it's irrelevant.
There is no requirement to back out of the world around us, it is creation, it was created in love. It is only the direct knowledge that impacts on self perception. There is no need to spend time in oblivion. It's a synthesis of direct knowledge and the material world combined that brings this sense. There is no requirement to look under the hood because all your doing is looking into yourself, the origin cannot be found, the self cannot be found, even awareness cannot be found, once that is known everything clicks into place. ( known does not constitute understanding, just as touching a fire results in a burn and pain, but still the fire is unknown ).
The thing is, it will not make sense. The only way to make sense is to go to the core of self, to shed the illusory self. Each and everyone has their own way and their own timeline. You can't attain or wish for it because it already is, it isn't becoming, it is shedding.
It's really best not to turn this into anything but an intellectual excersise. You will drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out, because it can't be figured out.
I remember reading something where someone asked what a guru had done to gain the true self. He said he had just obeyed his master. You have to find your master and do what you are told. Who, what or where that master is, is personal. It is internal but may appear external. It's only necessary to begin looking and it will find you.
|
|
|
|
Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 2:20:59 PM
|
At some point (I'm not sure when), I felt like the individual personification of the universe (all human beings, etc) was a way of the universe exploring. In other words, the Universe is "the ultimate being"...it is conscious and it is everything, and in order for it to experience it had to experience everything from a different, distinct viewpoint in all possible permutations. The way it did this was to manifest different people with different personalities, etc. and to let them behave with "free will" in order to experience everything.
Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU
Basically, it feels like the universe is behaving much as the fluid in this video.... seemingly individual pieces come and go, but they are really just manifestations of the total "pool" of liquid. Does that make sense? |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 3:11:55 PM
|
I know it seems like it should be rational and logical but it isn't. You are it, all there is, an infinity of expression. Meaning isn't found in what the universe is, it is found in what you are not. This is what the expression means " I am that I am" it's a carefully crafted enigma, a key of sorts. Split it down "I am" , " I am that", " I am that I " , " I am that I am".
"I am that I am" is the snake eating its own body. Neither beginning or end. It is beyond all, beyond everything, beyond beyond.
When a painter creates a work of art it has no rational function. Art for arts sake. There is no place it comes from. You are the art and the artist. There are no others.
So, return to where you currently find your self. Start there. Forget about trying to understand it, accept that you cannot. Do whatever the inner Guru advises.
It's like asking how to ride a bike, the answer isn't to study all it's angles, the entire universe of physics, neurobiology, history and everything else. The way to do it is to get on the bike and pedal, the riding will take of itself. |
|
|
|
Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 07:07:32 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bourgo
I am appalled and horrified at such an act, and frankly am just as horrified that someday I might realize that this person and I are indistinguishable.
Please help me understand this. Thanks all.
This is one of the reasons why I like the manga "Naruto": because almost every villain's background (frequently a childhood problem) is shown so the reader understand why he is now what he is. |
|
|
|
Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 08:04:32 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Will Power
quote:
Originally posted by Bourgo
I am appalled and horrified at such an act, and frankly am just as horrified that someday I might realize that this person and I are indistinguishable.
Please help me understand this. Thanks all.
This is one of the reasons why I like the manga "Naruto": because almost every villain's background (frequently a childhood problem) is shown so the reader understand why he is now what he is.
I call those excuses and I feel they have no place in the world.  That said, I am not enlightened so I could be wrong |
Edited by - Bourgo on May 01 2012 10:22:39 AM |
|
|
|
Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 1:50:03 PM
|
| I call them causality or Karma |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
& the purpose of all this!
