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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 05:19:11 AM
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It seems that it's easy to get into " everything is illusion " and all that good stuff. This post isn't about the philosophy, but more about what is actual.
1. I exist - can that be argued with ? No, I don't think it can. I'm not talking about illusion or any other philosophy, just the inbuilt feeling that you do, indeed exist in some way.
2. When I am in deep sleep without dreams I have no awareness of anything - that's true for me, until I go into dream, or wake up, time is static, I'm not aware of anything. It's equivalent to death.
3. I can plan my life - while those plans might well fall apart the moment I have finished planning, they certainly can be made. I can wrote them down and show them.
4. I am my body - it doesn't matter if you are identified or not, without the body you are dead. If dead is the same as deep sleep then there is no self awareness, it is oblivion, however I seem happy to submit to that every night on a voluntary basis.
5. Everything is illusion - yes, even science goes along with that. Most is empty space and what is sensed is simply the minds perception of objects. However, without the mind how can there be any perception?
6. God is very quiet - despite any beliefs, God doesn't speak to me, at least not in an everyday language that can be understood. Sure, things happen, lessons get learned, or repeated, but no direct conversation takes place so I'm guessing we are at liberty to mess up and take the consequences as they arise?
7. I am not my memories - without experiences we cannot function in the world. Without memories we would be unable to make the simplest connection. We would just be eyes on stalks unable to react to anything. Everything would be a stream of timeless and meaningless objects. However this does not mean your memories should make you a slave either, there is no need for them to be a prison.
8. In self inquiry if I ask the question who is inquiring ? then I get a blank - that's not entirely miraculous is it? It is a slightly daft question, if you discount the "I " that is asking then, just like cold reading, the answer is going to be " no one other than me, and as I have got rid of the me, then the answer can only be no one. It is infact a version of a double negative. If I ask you "what would not happen if you do not believe what I have just said? " it seems a plausible question, but it has no answer. So, what is self inquiry trying to achieve. Well, it creates a blank thought, an undefined bubble which can be filled.
9. If you tell someone something obvious, it isn't necessarily revelatory. It is a technique used in hypnotism. Simply tell someone something which is obviously true but contains no real detail.....you are aware of the temperature of your skin, the sounds around you, that somewhere there are birds flying through the air, the weight of you back against the chair, the quiet hum of traffic and conversation outside etc. you relax when hearing this because it reflects exactly your experience, this reinforcing is like feedback for the mind. Yes that's true, so is that, so is that, taking you deeper and deeper. I see this in some writings by Gurus, I don't know if it's deliberate, but be on guard, hypnotism doesn't require a hypnotist to be present.
These are just a few things I have come across. My own experiences. Real or illusory I cannot know and don't care anyway. 
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 08:43:03 AM
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Hi Karl,
Thanks for the post. You have hit on many interesting points that we all deal with...
Your point 4 (identification with the body), seems to be the lynch pin for much of what you said. When one feels the flow of energy beyond the body(or someone else feels it)... What would that be?
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 09:35:31 AM
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The word' feel implies something which can feel. I cannot say that is exclusively the body that feels, but I'm not familiar with anything else. All matter is converted energy. The body is a product of synthesised food. It is not motive without its life force.
One hand does not clap alone. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 12:28:53 PM
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>The word' feel implies something which can feel. I cannot say that is exclusively the body that feels, but I'm not familiar with anything else.
I agree that the word "feel" implies something which can feel. Your point 1 states that you exist, hence does that not mean that "you" feel. Do you believe others when they say that they have felt things beyond the body?
>All matter is converted energy. The body is a product of synthesised food. It is not motive without its life force.
What do you mean by "life force"? Is that "you"? Is it somehow different or separate from the body?
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 1:41:20 PM
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I like this game
Yes, I'm quite certain that is their perception.
Switch off a computer and it ceases to process. Is the power to the computer considered to be the computer? No, but without power it ceases to function. The computer components plus the power plus the programme are required. Take away the components and the rest is useless, take away the program and the result is the same.
This is why I say that one hand doesn't clap alone. I am neither the body, the life force, nor the memories and experiences. I am all three in combination. One cannot exist without the other, so that I cannot be found in any of those separately. Everything is in balance, no need to identify with body, mind, or energy. They all are by grace of each. A holy combination perhaps.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 4:07:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
I like this game
Yes, I'm quite certain that is their perception.
Switch off a computer and it ceases to process. Is the power to the computer considered to be the computer? No, but without power it ceases to function. The computer components plus the power plus the programme are required. Take away the components and the rest is useless, take away the program and the result is the same.
This is why I say that one hand doesn't clap alone. I am neither the body, the life force, nor the memories and experiences. I am all three in combination. One cannot exist without the other, so that I cannot be found in any of those separately. Everything is in balance, no need to identify with body, mind, or energy. They all are by grace of each. A holy combination perhaps.
I also enjoy the game...
But, given that there can be perception beyond the body. How can you be certain that a body is a necessary component? Previously you said that a body is basically converted energy. So matter is converted or condensed energy... Mind activity is also energy... So does that mean that that the computer, power and program are made of the same stuff?
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 4:55:23 PM
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I didn't say perception beyond the body. Just that I understood it was their perception.
According to physics it's all energy.all components maintain one another, the computer was a simplified analogy. Neither has more importance than the other. So, it's not true to say the body is necessary component.
If I see a leaf on a tree, it's an object called a leaf, it's a simple generalisation. If the leaf is then lying on the ground then the object seems for all intents and pupses as still being a leaf. However it is really a method of converting energy and maintaining a tree. It does that through photo synthesis, but it is a product of itself. Without the leaf there is no photo synthesis, without photo synthesis there is no leaf, but photo synthesis is only a process of energy conversion. See, they are all necessary components but are all products of each other. After a bit of thought its easy to see that everything is a component of everything else. It's all in balance.
So it doesn't matter if we are experiencing the universe or some other thing is going on. It's a closed system, a product of universal expansion. Everything happens as it was meant to, it unfolds, everything connected to everything else. We are star stuff, just as the stars are human stuff. |
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Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 10:05:31 AM
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Just because your biology requires that you "shut down" at night to recharge, doesn't mean that death is equivalent to dreamless deep sleep. That is a conclusion that you've managed to draw without experience.
I can't say that falling to my death is exactly the same thing as skydiving unless I've managed to do both  Out-of-body and near-death experiences (in many cases) should be totally impossible if our biology was responsible for our consciousness....and the conclusion that death and deep sleep are equivalent requires the assumption that biology = consciousness. I mean, you can try circumvent that conclusion by doing what you've done: saying that consciousness = biology x energy, but regardless of your equation if you strip away biology (biology =0), consciousness then becomes 0 as well. However I think this is an inappropriate view of consciousness, due to the number of extra-biological phenomena that we know exist...however obscure they may be.
Even just one out-of-body experience lets us know that consciousness is capable of existence without our biology. Just because the bottle (body) holds the beer (consciousness), that doesn't mean it can brew it. You can move the beer from the shelf to the fridge to the table, day or night, and the only result is that the beer will warm up or cool down or be exposed to light or dark....but ultimately the beer can only leave the bottle once it is broken (death). This doesn't mean that the beer no longer exists, it just means that it is no longer identified with the bottle. |
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