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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 05:27:54 AM
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Hello everyone;
Am I the only one who's noticing that one escapes the slavery on physical plane only to be caught up on spiritual realm!
I don't see how we can rise with humanity if we are offering ourselves [give up your ego...drop the mind!]...by repeating certain mantras and thus connect with so called higher beings who proved ages after ages not to solve the problem of violence and war in the world but maybe help provoke it in a way....& at the end,they tell you,there's nothing wrong with the world...It's God's Lila...Wooow great recipe to accept evil & slavery!psychic enslavement rings a bell?
consider this:
Ramana Maharshi: “Repetition aloud of His name is better than praise. Better still is its faint murmur. But the best is repetition within the mind — and that is meditation. Better than such broken thought is its steady and continuous flow like the flow of oil or of a perennial stream.”
freeze your mind!by offering it to him...A God that created us wouldn't request from us to surrender our mind so we become an empty corpse for him to control!!!
I went to Tiru few months back...One thing any normal Human can notice is the amount of poverty and suffering...beyond acceptable level...& Gurus!living in comfortable huge houses :)
Look at the Holy lands of God in Palestine!!!can it get any more violent?
We don't need higher beings...we only need our Humanity...It's everything we truly have & no way I'm offering my ego(which they try to convince you it's something bad) & my mind(with which I can tell good from evil) for exchange of tranquility & a sense of happiness....I'd rather make this earth a Happy place!
& the funny part they ask you to surrender & yet try to convince you have no free will! HaHa !Yes of course if you drop the mind you'll believe this lie :)
I'm personally out of this spiritual game!Good luck everybody.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 06:28:31 AM
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From the moment He blamed Eve for giving Adam the apple I knew we were *#** but what to do !!!  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 06:59:13 AM
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Hi Delara,
Sounds like you need to take a break!
But once you have, and if you are interested, take another look at the AYP lessons...
There is nothing in there about surrendering your ego, or about the ego being bad. Nothing at all. And there is nothing about chanting a mantra so you can connect with higher beings.
It also doesn't say anywhere that there is nothing wrong with the world. In fact is says that the world needs to be transformed, and that we can do it. There is also nothing about freezing your mind so that God can control you. I'm not sure where you got all these ideas from, but they sound really unhelpful. I would let go of them.
Oh, and there is also nothing about having no free will. In fact, you need to use your free will to engage in the practice of yoga, otherwise, you can't do it.
It sounds like you have been visiting an advaita teacher or two? If that is the case, you would do well to forget everything you heard, and just continue with your yoga practice. Then you can use your free will to transform this Earth into paradise without any help from any higher beings. 
Enjoy!
Christi |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 08:39:24 AM
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Beautiful reply, Christi!!
Thanks. |
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 10:31:02 AM
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Dear Christi;
thank you for your answer.
"It is to be noted that *who am I* is not a *intellectual* enquiry to be pursued. It is the upasana of *Aham* which is the upasana of Vak – the Great Goddess of Speech which is described in Vedas as Vak / Tripurasundari."
http://luthar.com/aham-i-am-is-the-...nkat-sriram/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripura_Sundari
Why the fact that one is offering the mind into a hindu deity when one is repeating IAM is not made clear from the beginning.
"Oh, and there is also nothing about having no free will. In fact, you need to use your free will to engage in the practice of yoga, otherwise, you can't do it."
I understand that there’s no talk about free will & destiny once one is not identified with the body but with inner silence…however what’s not clear who’s in charge once one identifies with the inner ssilence…god of IAM ?
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 10:33:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
From the moment He blamed Eve for giving Adam the apple I knew we were *#** but what to do !!!
:)
my favourite part is Abraham sacrificing his son to god is much better...imagine a guy tying his child to a tree nowadays & wants to kill it because God inspired him to do so!!...and at the end decide to sacrifice an innocent lamb instead
Anyways... |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 10:36:19 AM
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I don't know who told you about what you are saying, but forget it and forget advaita teachings.
This are the best lessons for you to read that will clarify your doubts:
http://www.aypsite.org/334.html
http://www.aypsite.org/329.html
http://www.aypsite.org/428.html
If you read the lessons from the start you'll understand all that the previous lessons say.
By the way, have you read The Mother's Agenda? She was a disciple of Sri Aurobindo and with their Ashram they helped many people during the war. That's just an example of an advanced yogi, not a fake one. I think she or Sri Aurobindo said something like: one must accept what is in order to realize God, and then one can truly change things for the better, acting on the vibration of the world.
Enjoy the readings!
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IfOnly
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 11:08:11 AM
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Delara,
would you please contact me via email
IfOnly,
Thanks |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 12:01:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Delara
I understand that there’s no talk about free will & destiny once one is not identified with the body but with inner silence…however what’s not clear who’s in charge once one identifies with the inner ssilence…god of IAM ?
Who is in charge?
You imagine that you have control, or you imagine something else must have control.
Control is the illusion, all control, not just your own. When you surrender, then you surrender what you never owned. What you never owned cannot be taken.
Your thoughts come to you and they cannot be controlled, the world around you comes to you and cannot be controlled.
It is the illusion of control which is at the root of suffering.
When you let it go of the idea of control, then you can see that everything is really quite perfect just the way it is.
This can be achieved in a moment, but for most people it requires steady work to truly give away the illusion. It doesn't seem natural. Free will is the ability to give up the illusion of control and is not the ability to gain greater control. There is freedom in the first and there is bondage in the second.
We talk about stillness and silence and all those good things, they are part of the process, a way of helping to uncover things. Like an onion is peeled away in layers until there is nothing left. Yoga is a way of systematically doing this, removing each layer of illusion until nothing remains except what has always been.
You cannot properly help things until you get free of this illusion of control. You cannot give up the Ego or free will, they are what you are. Just don't mistake free will for control or Ego for something different and separate.
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 12:13:34 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 12:26:30 PM
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Hi Delara and all,
It might be a good idea to examine the assumption or belief of "free will". According to Merriam-Webster dictionary, free will is defined as 1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
If we look at neurophysiological research (such as the mapping of brain patterns, responses to stimulus etc.) and our own experience , it seems that once examined, we can see that what is normally meant by free will is not accurate. Now, I'm not saying that there is no will at all, but that the assumption we have free will is based on other assumptions, beliefs, conditioning, tradition, etc. Are you the thinker? Can you choose the next thought that occurs? How about intention? Do you intend your intention before you intend it? Where does it come from and why? It seems all of these have to do with preceding events, including subconscious processes, which we have no conscious knowlege of. How can we be said to have free will?
YouTube videos by Sam Harris on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g&sns=em
(1 of 3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodTNPp12rg&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRIcbsRXQ0o&sns=em
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IfOnly
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 12:47:21 PM
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I entreat you, my brothers, to remain true to the earth, and believe not those who speak to you of super-earthly hopes! Poisoners are they, whether they know it or not.
Neitzsche - Thus Spake Zarathustra |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 1:52:43 PM
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I second the suggestion to take time off, let things settle.
Allow things to flow from there naturally, wherever it ends up.
Will it be all that much of a surprise if you found yourself where you left off?
I've done my rounds in spiritual despair and they aren't over yet, but in my case, unlike yours perhaps, it is the world that appears as the tyrant overshadowing human potential, putting it ever more out of reach. The world can really appear backwards, but it is really at one with the mind, my own and those of others, which itself is backwards. The so-called backwards-flowing way is with reference to the mind. The tyranny is of my own making, and not just that but also my own unwilling (unknowing) contribution to the monument of tyranny as achieved by the (unknowing) many.
I also cannot help but ask who is concerned about who is in charge, but as the lessons remind us, better take it from the top, gradually work in a well-rounded approach, let the synergy do its thing, and then go out and live.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 1:53:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chas
Hi Delara and all,
It might be a good idea to examine the assumption or belief of "free will". According to Merriam-Webster dictionary, free will is defined as 1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
If we look at neurophysiological research (such as the mapping of brain patterns, responses to stimulus etc.) and our own experience , it seems that once examined, we can see that what is normally meant by free will is not accurate. Now, I'm not saying that there is no will at all, but that the assumption we have free will is based on other assumptions, beliefs, conditioning, tradition, etc. Are you the thinker? Can you choose the next thought that occurs? How about intention? Do you intend your intention before you intend it? Where does it come from and why? It seems all of these have to do with preceding events, including subconscious processes, which we have no conscious knowlege of. How can we be said to have free will?
YouTube videos by Sam Harris on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g&sns=em
(1 of 3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodTNPp12rg&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRIcbsRXQ0o&sns=em
Of course, but you must have the illusion of free will to begin the process. It's just like Yogani says. The match ( illusion of free will ) sets fire to the cotton, both the cotton and the match are burned up in the fire.
The world does not disappear, but the illusion is burned away. The idea of control is removed and that allows us to be as we naturally are and not as we think we are. Suffering ceases because it was built on the same illusion.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 2:12:04 PM
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quote:
Who is in charge?
You imagine that you have control, or you imagine something else must have control.
Control is the illusion, all control, not just your own. When you surrender, then you surrender what you never owned. What you never owned cannot be taken.
just reminded me of this awesome Joy Division song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGMD...ture=related |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 2:19:29 PM
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| Which song, YouTube won't load. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 3:03:30 PM
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| Still didn't work but I found the song anyway. Thanks M. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 4:29:23 PM
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quote:
Dear Christi;
thank you for your answer.
"It is to be noted that *who am I* is not a *intellectual* enquiry to be pursued. It is the upasana of *Aham* which is the upasana of Vak – the Great Goddess of Speech which is described in Vedas as Vak / Tripurasundari."
http://luthar.com/aham-i-am-is-the-...nkat-sriram/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripura_Sundari
Why the fact that one is offering the mind into a hindu deity when one is repeating IAM is not made clear from the beginning.
Hi Delara,
I think you are spinning right out on a tangent here. When we use the I AM mantra, we are not using the meaning of the words, but rather the sound. In other words it is the same as AYAM. This is spelled out quite clearly in the lessons. In other words it has nothing to do with Aham, or any other translation into any other language.
If you were using the word Aham as a mantra, still you would not be "offering your mind to a Hindu deity". The word "upasana" is sanskrit for "positioned up close to". It is used to describe spiritual practices which bring people close to that which is divine. The mind is not offered, but transcended. In Hinduism, there is a deity associated with pretty much everything. The word vac means "speach, voice etc.", and there are Godesses associated with the word "vac". But that is a long way from what we are doing here with our Yoga practice. It has very little, if anything to do with it.
quote:
I understand that there’s no talk about free will & destiny once one is not identified with the body but with inner silence…however what’s not clear who’s in charge once one identifies with the inner ssilence…god of IAM ?
You're in charge.
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IfOnly
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 5:34:58 PM
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Christi,
Can you please give us the background of the I AM mantra, it's history?
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 02:17:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
Dear Christi;
thank you for your answer.
"It is to be noted that *who am I* is not a *intellectual* enquiry to be pursued. It is the upasana of *Aham* which is the upasana of Vak – the Great Goddess of Speech which is described in Vedas as Vak / Tripurasundari."
http://luthar.com/aham-i-am-is-the-...nkat-sriram/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripura_Sundari
Why the fact that one is offering the mind into a hindu deity when one is repeating IAM is not made clear from the beginning.
Hi Delara,
I think you are spinning right out on a tangent here. When we use the I AM mantra, we are not using the meaning of the words, but rather the sound. In other words it is the same as AYAM. This is spelled out quite clearly in the lessons. In other words it has nothing to do with Aham, or any other translation into any other language.
If you were using the word Aham as a mantra, still you would not be "offering your mind to a Hindu deity". The word "upasana" is sanskrit for "positioned up close to". It is used to describe spiritual practices which bring people close to that which is divine. The mind is not offered, but transcended. In Hinduism, there is a deity associated with pretty much everything. The word vac means "speach, voice etc.", and there are Godesses associated with the word "vac". But that is a long way from what we are doing here with our Yoga practice. It has very little, if anything to do with it.
quote:
I understand that there’s no talk about free will & destiny once one is not identified with the body but with inner silence…however what’s not clear who’s in charge once one identifies with the inner ssilence…god of IAM ?
You're in charge.
...Nice try!
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 04:12:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by IfOnly
Christi,
Can you please give us the background of the I AM mantra, it's history?
You'd have to ask Yogani that. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 07:09:34 AM
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| There is quite a bit about the mantra in Yogani's writings, both the main lessons link above, and in several of his books. |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 10:50:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by chas
Hi Delara and all,
It might be a good idea to examine the assumption or belief of "free will". According to Merriam-Webster dictionary, free will is defined as 1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
If we look at neurophysiological research (such as the mapping of brain patterns, responses to stimulus etc.) and our own experience , it seems that once examined, we can see that what is normally meant by free will is not accurate. Now, I'm not saying that there is no will at all, but that the assumption we have free will is based on other assumptions, beliefs, conditioning, tradition, etc. Are you the thinker? Can you choose the next thought that occurs? How about intention? Do you intend your intention before you intend it? Where does it come from and why? It seems all of these have to do with preceding events, including subconscious processes, which we have no conscious knowlege of. How can we be said to have free will?
YouTube videos by Sam Harris on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g&sns=em
(1 of 3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodTNPp12rg&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRIcbsRXQ0o&sns=em
Of course, but you must have the illusion of free will to begin the process. It's just like Yogani says. The match ( illusion of free will ) sets fire to the cotton, both the cotton and the match are burned up in the fire.
The world does not disappear, but the illusion is burned away. The idea of control is removed and that allows us to be as we naturally are and not as we think we are. Suffering ceases because it was built on the same illusion.
You say "of course" as though this is obvious. No doubt it is to you, but it's not to most. Prior to the concept of free will is a sense of a separate self, and identification. We don't need the concept for illusion or truth. The illusion runs much deeper, and truth is truth, regardless.
Still, the concept is demonstrably false. And the belief in it, is for many, what is. As such, I don't have a "problem" with it, why argue with what is? And what is is changing. Based on the trends, on awareness of the facts, it appears a more integrated, sane, and healthy perspective will eventually come into existence on wider scale. The science can't be ignored for long, and a wider awareness of it will be a welcome change, IMO.
It is the recognition and deeper understanding that if you or I (as the subject), were "in the other persons shoes", subject to the same conditions, we would not, could not have acted any differently. So, where does that leave blame and judgement? Where does that leave ideas such as "good and evil"? Where does that leave retribution and revenge? On the contrary, it lends to a compassionate point of view, and to the recognition that the circumstances are integral to behavior.
In regards to "enlightenment", I don't consider the concept useful or necessary. It seems to me that the implications of this would naturally bring one closer, faster. It is a blow to the egoic state of being, and the belief system required to maintain it. Naturally, it seems, one would choose to surrender, and let go of the idea of control, seeing that it never existed to begin with. Without the inner conflict to what is, what is will become more apparent. And in dropping the belief, what do we have to lose? Resistance, regret, belief, judgement, etc.
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Edited by - chas on Apr 19 2012 10:56:07 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 4:50:18 PM
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It's really funny to me, seeing this topic today. I haven't had much time lately to read the recent posts (working a 72hr week this week), and I haven't read any of the responses (so forgive me if this has already been said), but I find it too synchronistic to happen across this post today and not write anything.
Just yesterday afternoon I had one of those "Woa! It all makes sense!" realizations. When these happen it is usually very hard to put words to it in a way that does the realization any justice, but I'll try, as it directly relates to this topic from my perspective.
quote:
they tell you,there's nothing wrong with the world...It's God's Lila...Wooow great recipe to accept evil & slavery!
Here's what happened yesterday. I'm driving home from a friend's house (9 times out of 10 I am driving when I have a "realization"...wondering if I should become a long haul trucker or something  ) and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, there is a shift in seeing. {Please bear with me as I struggle to put this all to words} This shift was not a shift in seeing with my eyes, or a shift in seeing with my mind (necessarily), but this shift of seeing was of the body. The only way I can say what shifted is to say that in this "realization" there was a deep inner knowing embodied in each molecule of my body, that Life is conscious of itself. That no thought, no movement, no reaction, no gust of wind, no word, no interaction... absolutely everything, is happening for a reason and there are no "accidents." It became *very* obvious that "The Whole" (whatever you want to call it... I generally just use the word "Life") is absolutely aware of itself and nothing is hidden from "It's" view.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that "Life" is something separate from me, or you, or the kitchen floor because we as humans are not always very aware of ourselves... we, everything, is "This"... it's all the same on the macro level. The differences, appear to only exist on the "thought" level and on the "awareness" level (meaning that some "things" are more aware of "The Whole" than others and we as humans have a tendency to believe erroneous thoughts that are not necessarily true on the macro level).
As this "realization" settled into the body I couldn't help but laugh like a crazy person. The reason for this laughter was because I could see with stunning clarity, all the suffering I have been putting myself through over the years. It was obvious that the suffering was "necessary" (in order to bring me to this moment now) but also that it was completely unnecessary in that the suffering was all self-imposed. I have been suffering because I have believing thoughts that Life must be unaware of what is happening, at least in some areas.... that "It" *doesn't* know what it's doing. But as this shift of seeing happened, it became so incredibly obvious that Life absolutely *does* know what it's doing, that I couldn't help but laugh at myself and how ridiculous it is for me to have suffered over the fact that I believed things needed to be different. And when I say "different" I mean everything from the placement of a toothbrush to the murders that happen everyday around the globe.
The result of this shift in seeing is still being integrated, and this integration could take the rest of my living days for all I know, but the result at this point has been an utter rest of the mind like I have never experienced before. There is such a profound sense of peace about it all that it can not be accurately described in words... or at least I can't do it. It has left me with such an overwhelming sense of love and compassion for everything that I almost don't feel like "myself." Like I am now someone/something new. To me, this is how we solve wars, and murder and rape and all the bad stuff that happens in the world. We work on ourselves so that we become beacons of love and compassion, and we share that with the world around us. We can't change others. We can't change how another feels or reacts. But we can change ourselves so that we are in a place where we can be shining examples of the world we would like to see. And *this* is why we do yoga. At least from my perspective.
I realize that this is not an understanding that I can give to another.... that this sense of peace has to come from inside each and every one of us. So I realize that all that is said here is just a bunch of words and doesn't change anything. But I thought I would share anyway as I have recently been going through a bit of a "Why am I doing yoga?" phase myself. And now I know. Personally, I really think that yoga really needs to be approached with a relaxed perspective, one that has no expectations and one that is not forced in any way. I understand how easy it is to say that and how hard that is to achieve in actuality, but I really think we are holding ourselves back with these ideas about doing yoga for bliss or for enlightenment or for peace or for anything else. Who knows why we do ANYTHING, yoga or anything else. It's ridiculously obvious to me now that all we can do is what we are inclined to do, and that all our reasons and motivations really mean squat in the grand scheme. If you aren't inclined to do yoga, then don't. But stay open to the possibility of feeling inclined to do it in the future. Don't think too much about it. Do what you do and enjoy every moment. There are no accidents.
One last thing to this already stupidly long post. With regards to control... in this shift there was a new understanding about control. I had previously had a belief that all control is an illusion. That's not entirely true. The only control we have is the control we apply. Outside of that, it's all out of our hands. You control you. You don't control the outcomes of your controlling actions, but you control you. At least that is how it is seen right now.
Sorry for the long post.
Lots of love to you, Delara and All.
Love,
Carson  |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 6:15:29 PM
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Thanks Carson,
That makes sense to me. I have never understood when people say we have no free will, or we have no control, or we can't change our thoughts. From my perspective, those things are not true.
I go through periods of extreme laziness, and other times massive action. And the difference definitely comes from making a decision to change. When I don't make this decision, I always default to doing only what I HAVE to do and nothing more. This makes an unbalanced life, with a slight feeling that something is wrong, but there is nothing telling me what needs to change until I seek it out and decide what action to take.
It is true that our will is not completely free because there are a lot of things we can't do. But the list of
things we CAN do is almost infinite, so close enough.
By not participating in a war we may feel that there is nothing we can do. But we are changing our future by not adding more bad karma. By not hating we change the people around us. One by one we change to not harming others, so it does help eventually.
The problem with teaching people that we have no control or no free will, is that they can assume they are not responsible or don't need a moral code. The results of that can be seen in the news everyday. I know it prob comes from the concept of no "I", and life as a whole is really doing it, but I think those concepts are better left to discover yourself rather than teach someone else, due to the potential for misuse.
PS Delara,
I agree we don't want to surrender ourselves to "higher beings" and become slaves! Fortunately we can always change our mind when we have made a mistake. And we would know it if someone is enslaving us, and do something about it.
Lucky for us that AYP is about as far as you can get from a guru enslaving us. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Apr 19 2012 6:20:45 PM |
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& the purpose of all this!
