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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
 Posted - May 11 2006 : 05:49:13 AM
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Hello to all of you,
This does not have to do directly with yoga,
but it bothers me and I hope to get some
advice from you.
I seem to come to certain situations again and again:
it has to do with being treated injustly and this brings
up in me the question how the bible's saying about
"Turning the other cheek" is to be understood.
It seems to me that frequently I encounter situations
where I am faced with injustice, and I feel upset about
being treated unfairly. Sometimes its just small things,
involving material and financial disadvantages.
And I wonder many times, should I just forget about it
(and accept the disadvantage) or should I fight for
my right. Should I turn the other cheek or should I
stand up for justice ? How are Jesus' words to be
understood ?
If you are curious about such a concrete situation,
I can post a detailed discription about what happened
to me just a few days ago.
Any comments are welcome.
regards
Wolfgang
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2006 : 09:58:51 AM
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Hi Wolfgang,
Yes, this is a question that arises in everyone mind.. one time or another. It is hard at first to answer it yourself, but in time with meditation.. you will find answers to questions like this, arising from within you.
For now though.. here is how I see it. You have to have a clear definition of what is right and wrong according to you.. then you have to draw a line. If someone crosses this line.. you have to be firm and make sure this person understands they have crossed the line. The easy part is letting the other person know what your "line" is.. the hard part is to do it without anger, hatred and emotions. You have to detach yourself form the feeling of injustice when you talk to this other person.. but if you are sure it was an injustice you should speak up.. According to me turning the other cheek is not about sitting there and getting beaten up.. its about giving love back.. not by hugging the guy.. but telling him peacefully.. no attack.. what you think about the situation.
This is really hard to do.. but I have seen with meditation, I can now put my words more clearly and not get all caught up in the feeling of injustice. So the trick is not to be an emotional knot when you handle the situation..
Jim's post on depression.. it can be applied here too.. don't let this feeling of injustice take over you.. remove yourself from the situation.. and then talk.. if you let your emotions do the talking.. you wont get too far.. because your true self gets buried.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=2
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=3
When you say you should forget about it.. it is more for yourself than the other person.. right? I mean, you need to let this feeling of injustice go from your life, right? But then.. the injustice is there.. so how do you forgive and move on?
Get the book by Byron Katie-"Loving What Is". She has a wonderful system called "The Work".. it asks you 4 questions and then you turn the situation around. It has worked on a lot of my issues.. and believe me I had a lot of issues with people... Read over some of the stuff in this thread.. Katie is mentioned here too..
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=968
All our lives we spend trying to make people see things our way.. like Byron Katie says.. "we are mentally living in other people's business".. When we say.. Oh I wish he wouldn't treat me this way.. or wish he would see how good I am at something.. wish this..wish that.. we are trying to change the way the other person sees things. That is where we go wrong. We have to accept what is.. I cannot change the other person.. and for all my life I spend all my energy trying to change this person.. what have I got back in return.. unhappiness, feeling of helplessness, frustration, anger, hatred.. Who has suffered because of this? You think this other person even cares what you are feeling?
So if the question was.. I wish he would see things my way.. turn it around 180 degrees and say.. I wish I could see things my way.. or I wish he did not see things my way.. or I wish I could see things his way. If in silence you can picture this in your head.. you will see we make such a big deal about nothing. We have to live our lives.. make ourselves happy.. not try to live someone else's life.. Accept a situation but don't let anyone cross your "line".. you have to be firm.. but with calmness, not emotions... only you can do this for yourself.. nobody else can do it for you.
So there are two things in this post.. one is to get a clear picture of what you want, and communicate this to the other person minus the emotions.. and the second is to forgive and move on.. for your own sake.
Yogani has taught me a lot of things through his lessons and emails. One thing he had said in one of his emails that got me moving towards this self inquiry thing.. that I am going to quote here.. maybe it will help you as much as it helped me.. (thank you Yogani).
"If we choose to let others use us as a doormat, they are not to blame. We are!
Practices gradually build our strength to overcome such things."
-Shanti
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Edited by - Shanti on May 11 2006 10:15:35 AM |
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Vicki
Ireland
20 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2006 : 11:13:40 AM
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| This is my reflection on it. When we notice ourselves repeatedly faced with a challenging issue in life, it often is an invitation to explore and heal a deep aspect of ourselves. So, rather than reacting to it or trying to avoid it, maybe as we turn towards it and allow ourselves to go into it, we discover what we need to learn, which enables us more freedom. However, often turning towards and exploring the painful feelings evoked by such an event is hard to do. If we can seek to truly understand the roots of our feelings, experience them and accept them, our perspective can alter and change can occur. It is only then when we truly 'know ourselves' that I think we are really able to turn the other cheek. If we do not do the deep work on ourselves and know our 'shadow' side intimately then we are likely to fool ourselves by repressing emotions such as anger, hate and frustration. We can find ourselves locked in particular life pattern which leads us to 'act out' or react as a way of defending ourselves against the pain we so desperately want to avoid... |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2006 : 1:48:19 PM
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Another angle: When I feel offended or wronged and am trying to figure out whether or not to react, I sit still for a moment and determine what, or who, has been offended. If it's my ego, then I let the offense go.* If it's my Self, I address it. It's almost never the latter, btw. The Self is rarely offended. Maybe that's why the great gurus had such an easy time turning the other cheek - no ego.
* usually. :) |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2006 : 2:41:57 PM
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Ok, here is the situation that happened to me. It started
about 1 month ago:
I bought some equipment (power supply) for my computer via Ebay.
The vendor offered among other payment methods also payment
with PayPal, which I wanted to use, because the seller then
immediately receives the money and can then immediately proceed
with shipment (I urgently needed that power supply).
When trying to pay with PayPal, I was informed by PayPal that
the sellers account is not able to receive further payments
(probably the sellers Limit for receiving money had been reached).
So I could not proceed in this paying. I informed the seller
by Email on the same day and suggested to him that I am prepared
to send by fax a written statement that I am willing to
pay by bank transfer, but I would need the power supply
immediately (bank transfer usually takes 3 days). If immediate
shipment is not possible I intend to cancel the order.
I also told him that in the past I have already bought
other items from him and he could be sure
that I am a trustful buyer. I also phoned to him but only
got his answering machine and left a message for him.
Next day because I haven't received any answer, I wrote to him
that I am cancelling the order. Incidently almost at the same
time I sent this cancellation to him, I also received an email from
him, telling me that there are some problems with PayPal and
telling me that they hope for those problems to be solved
during the day.
I did not respond to his email, my cancellation had anyway
been sent and his information about the problems with PayPal
just reenforced my decision for cancellation. About 2 weeks
later I received a reminder to pay for the powersupply and
this now got me quite upset. I wrote to him that I already
cancelled the order and asked him if he did
not receive the cancellation. He responded, that surley I do
have the right for cancellation, but that he has to proceed
in giving me a warning for not paying, so that he can reclaim
his costs from Ebay. Well, I was at that moment not happy with
such a warning, but to myself I was a bit unsure if such a
situation is worth the trouble. What really set me off was,
when 2 days ago I received a letter from an inkasso-company
(don't know the right word - money collecting office?).
So I am now threatened by them to pay for the goods (35€)
and on top of that an even higher amount for fees (40€).
If I should not pay, I am threatened with a court case.
I phoned this agency and tried to clear the matter,
however without success, they were very unfriendly,
telling me that only a written statement is handled.
I wrote to the Ebay-seller, telling him that I do not accept
this bill, telling him that I cancelled the order and telling
him that the goods are still in his possession and that therefore
there are no legal grounds for his bill.
So far I got no answer from him.
Anyway, my thoughts on this and reflecting my own feelings
and emotions so far is, it seems that I have been a "doormat"
many times in my life and that now I come into situations where
I get the chance to act differently. But why is there such an
emotional upheaval involved ?
And uncertainty and insecurity about an obvious case (I keep
having worries how to settle this case) ?
And isn't it ridiculous to make such a fuss about 35 Euros
(well it is 75 € now, but still not a big thing) ?
Well, I guess I need to learn more to be the witness and
be able to laugh about my emotions or learn to heal them ...
And I need to learn not to get emotional when dealing
with a situation where I feel threatened and being
treated injustly.
Best regards
Wolfgang |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2006 : 3:12:40 PM
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Some practical advice first:
Did he send you the power supply? I'm assuming he didn't.
Note: my advice is based on my understanding of the law around here (U.S.).
>> He responded, that surley I do
have the right for cancellation, but that he has to proceed
in giving me a warning for not paying, so that he can reclaim
his costs from Ebay
Sounds ridiculous to me. He's pursuing you through the debt-collection company, hoping you'll pay your half of a contract that was not completed.
If I'm getting the details right, and if you have the energy, make a complaint about him to eBay, for the sake of other possible later customers of his. Warn him first, to see if he can justify himself or rectify the situation. Sometimes it only takes 'a few good men' to put a stop to bad behavior. Scammers rely on the fact that too few people have what it takes to protect society from them.
Don't worry about the court. They aren't stupid enough to take you to court.
Don't waste too much energy on the debt-collection company. Keep details slim and focussed -- "The order was cancelled because seller's account was unable to take payment. Delivery never occurred. No money is owed, and no money will be paid." and do the 'broken record' on that.
Then turn the other cheek. 
As Jesus said, "First, be ye true to yourselves and not a doormat, then turn the other cheek". 
Seriously, I think that is the intended meaning. Jesus is speaking colorfully, aphoristically. It's about an internal attitude, not outward behavior.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 11 2006 3:16:31 PM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2006 : 3:57:51 PM
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Hi Wolfgang:
I could be wrong, but I believe all completed auctions on eBay are binding contracts, with payment due before shipping by the seller (unfortunate about paypal not working, but the contract is still there). Which is no excuse for rudeness, of course...
It seems the simple way out of this is to pay the money, get the power supply (maybe it will be your spare by then - so sell it on eBay!), place a bad report on the seller if need be (ASAP - as short as possible), and move on.
They say that yogis have the ability to stay out of the mud and the thorns. That's one way to do it. Nothing to prove here, except that you can extricate yourself quickly and let go of it. Just a suggestion.
Inner silence has an amazing ability to cut through these kinds of muddy, thorny situations. Very practical. All the more reason to keep meditating. The best cheek to turn is the one that is like infinite inner space. Everything passes right through it. Then nothing sticks and it is easy to be a good Christian.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2006 : 6:20:40 PM
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Two notes:
A court might rule that the seller acted in bad faith not explicitly rejecting your effort to cancel, and that that voided your obligation.
Another: check if it is legal in your jurisdiction for collection agency to seek additional fees from a debtor. In some cases it is highly illegal and may even be criminal. It sounds absurd to me that you can be slapped with such a fee.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 11 2006 6:21:55 PM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2006 : 05:14:32 AM
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@david_obsidian: you are right, the goods have not been delivered to me.
concerning the fees: if a claim is justified then fees for getting the claim
are also justified. To determine if a claim is justified is in the very
end a decision of a court.
@yogani:you are right - this Ebay-transaction is a valid and binding contract.
However according to german law the buyer has the right to cancel the contract
within 14 days without stating any reasons. I did cancel the contract (and
I even had a valid reason). Even the seller himself in his business conditions
is stating this right of cancellation. Your suggested solution to pay anyway
and then resell the goods crossed my mind also, but it is not feasable for me.
After cancelling the contract I ordered 2 power supplies (to have 1 in spare)
from another vendor. That transaction actually went through perfectly to my
fullest satisfaction (payment with PayPal, shipment same day, arrived next
day at my home!). So I now have 1 power supply in spare. Following your
suggestion I would have to pay 75 €. The actual value for those goods is
20 € plus 15€ for shipping costs. It is unrealistic to be able to re-sell
those goods at the price of 75 €
@shanti:
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
When you say you should forget about it.. it is more for yourself than the other person.. right? I mean, you need to let this feeling of injustice go from your life, right? But then.. the injustice is there.. so how do you forgive and move on?
Get the book by Byron Katie-"Loving What Is". She has a wonderful system called "The Work".. it asks you 4 questions and then you turn the situation around. It has worked on a lot of my issues.. and believe me I had a lot of issues with people... Read over some of the stuff in this thread.. Katie is mentioned here too..
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=968
Thank you, your post and link has been very helpful.
Best regards
Wolfgang |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 09:17:52 AM
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Follow your bliss and if there's no bliss, then follow the path of least negativity.
Keep in mind that aggression is better than despair.
Finally it's not the action you take that is of consequence but the vibration you transmit that has the power.
-Yoda |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 10:10:51 AM
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Thank you for all of your comments.
Meanwhile I feel quite at ease with this whole thing
and I am quite confident that it will be settled without
disadvantages for me.
What I realsised however is following:
I am quite a stubborn person (I realised that long ago).
I am trying to change my stubbornness and that is
where it starts to get tricky. I have a strong feeling
for rightousness (also standing up for the rights of
others not just for myself). In some situations I easily
start to doubt whether I am beeing right. My stubbornness
wants to be right and I am not 100% sure if I am
really right, and on top of that I want to change my
stubbornness ! That is when I start to turn in a milltread ...
with love and light
Wolfgang |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 10:29:40 AM
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| Only one word for you Wolfgang.. Meditate |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 11:02:56 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Wolfgang
"...among other payment methods also payment
with PayPal, which I wanted to use, because the seller then
immediately receives the money and can then immediately proceed
with shipment (I urgently needed that power supply)."
Hi Wolfgang:
In addition to turn the other cheek, Jesus said, "Don't take splinters out of your neighbor's eye when you have a plank in your own."
Regarding money, some self-examination is sometimes useful. One might ask:
Do I have good credit?
Do I consume with reason and moderation (rather than impulsively and in excess of need)?
Am I able to save money?
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Edited by - bewell on May 13 2006 11:16:43 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 4:51:01 PM
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Wolfgang, not sure what bewell was saying there, but it would be very, very ironic if he was attempting to find a splinter in your eye for you.
I am trying to change my stubbornness and that is
where it starts to get tricky. I have a strong feeling
for rightousness (also standing up for the rights of
others not just for myself). In some situations I easily
start to doubt whether I am beeing right. My stubbornness
wants to be right and I am not 100% sure if I am
really right, and on top of that I want to change my
stubbornness !
Let me try to unpack a few of those, to see if it helps.
I believe stubborn-ness is emotional attachment to a self-image as one who does not make mistakes, particularly relative to other people. It's a form of egotism. The opposite to it is a willingness to know that we make mistakes, and a relaxing away from the feeling that there is so much 'at stake'. Why do we feel there is so much 'at stake', around the whole business of making mistakes or not? What's wrong with making some mistakes? Who doesn't?
>> In some situations I easily start to doubt whether I am beeing right.
Well, that's a good thing, isn't it? What is the difference between doubting that you are right, and the constant openness to what the truth really is?
I think, if you want to change your stubbornness, don't make a big deal of always being right. Be open to your mistakes.
I have a strong feeling
for rightousness (also standing up for the rights of
others not just for myself).
Another good thing, isn't it? The determining difference between societies which are crippled with corruption and those that are relatively low in it, is the number of people who have a sense for standing up for the rights of others, not just themselves. This willingness to stand up on these matters is just another expression of civic-mindedness, which is a form of 'unity'. When we do this, we are like someone who insists on making an effort to prevent others from pouring poison into the common water-supply. Most people are just not sufficiently civic-minded to bother.
So I hope you don't lose your willingness to stand up for the rights of others. As is probably clear to you, stubbornness is a different thing entirely, and can be diminished without diminishing willingness to stand up for ones own rights and the rights of others.
-D |
Edited by - david_obsidian on May 13 2006 5:03:07 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2006 : 12:16:13 AM
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i have a lot of experience with Ebay and disputes there. Ebay is so big and computerized that you absolutely have to follow their rules if you want to do business there. Yogani is right- when you click on the button to bid or buy it now on Ebay it says it is a binding contract.
Even though you may have German laws that circumvent that, you have to follow Ebay laws first or you will be kicked off Ebay. you would have to go to court and spend a lot of money and time to get the German laws enforced.
You can't ever expect to get anything quickly on Ebay unless the listing specifically says so. they have procedures to follow if you are unable pay by regular means, and it's all computerized and you can't talk to people. so it's best just to follow Ebays rigid rules or don't deal with them at all. most of the time you can get very good deals, but occasionally you won't, kind of like a vending machine that takes your money and doesn't dispense anything. The larger items have much more protection if the seller has good feedback. I bought my car on ebay and saved thousands and had it shipped from a long ways away, and it was all protected.
So if you're sensitive about always getting every little detail correct and have to deal with people, Ebay's not the place to buy things. Personally, I love it and save a huge amount of money there, and get rid of everything I don't want there.
Like other people have said; meditation removes the stress from everything in life. The more consistent and longer you do it, the more things won't bother you.
Best of luck! |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2006 : 06:08:52 AM
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@david_obsidian: your last post has been most helpfull.
Thank you very very much !
@bewell: like david wrote, I also don't know what you wanted to say.
The answer is Yes to all of these questions you put.
Do I have good credit ? Well, my account is in the plus at all times,
so to me this is good credit (and I don't have financial debts).
Do I consume with reason and moderation (rather than impulsively and in excess of need)?
I am really perplexed: my computer was broken and I needed a new power supply.
What could there be excess of need ? If your question is to be understood more
general, then I tend to be a person who definitely does not buy unnecessary things,
rather the contrary, I am a person who not easily treats myself to something
enjoyable.
Am I able to save money ? Definitely. As above, I have to watch out that I don't
emphasise on saving.
So anyway, I don't understand what I gained by answering these questions ...
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2006 : 12:26:33 PM
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Wolfgang wrote:
"Do I have good credit ? Well, my account is in the plus at all times,
so to me this is good credit (and I don't have financial debts)."
While in my opinion this is much better than good credit, it isn't called good credit by the reporting agencies. Good credit is gained from a history of borrowing money and paying it back on time.
I have no idea what this has to do with the topic.
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 05:04:48 AM
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I believe that we are responsible for everything that happens to us. If somebody harms us, that is our past behaviour coming back to us, past lives included. If you harm them back, then you are simply continuing the cycle. I believe spiritual practice is centered around getting out of this cycle (aka getting out of the bondage of Karma).. thus you must turn the other cheek no matter what. Then again, there is always the exception and as Shakti said.. in time with meditation you will find answers to questions like this, arising from within you.
Does anybody here think God is unjust? You think any one thing that ever happens to you is not by God's will? |
Edited by - Chiron on May 16 2006 06:06:48 AM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 05:26:22 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Wolfgang
I don't understand what I gained by answering these questions ...
/quote]
Hi Wolfgang,
Perhaps you gained nothing. Thanks for indulging me.
Like you, I buy with moderation and am saving. I use a “credit card,” but because I always pay my balance in full, I never pay interest. The only things I buy on interest are real estate and education. Because I paid/pay off those debts on time each month, I have a very high credit rating.
I have a friend (with whom I have cofacilitated a weekly meditation group since '99) who has your problem -- a string of little financial "wrongs" against her. Once, she got in a dispute with her credit card company over some small amount, maybe ten dollars in the begining, before fines and interest. She was convinced she was in the right. Her insistant refusal to pay eventualy resulted in the company taking her to court. Her already poor credit rating was hurt by the deal. My questions to you came out of my experience with her. For a while, we were in an intentional money management discussion.
Strangely, I have a problem opposite of the one you (and she) describe -- I have had a string of errors in my favor. The latest came yesterday. I had shopped for a pair hand braces on Amazon using a credit card. I bought a product that was sold in singles, one per order. I wanted two. But I had only ordered one, thinking initially that it was a package of two. Moments after order, I realized that I was mistaken. Four days later, one came in the mail, I used it and enjoyed it and planned to order another. But yesterday, another came in the mail.
A day after ordering, I had received an unexpected phone message from the distributor saying they were sorry of the delay: Amazon had not until then sent the order, and the brace is in the mail. I'm not sure what they were talking about then, but, in retrospect, I'm guessing their sending two was related to that confusion.
It is ok with me if they billed me for two, but I'm guessing they only billed me for one. I can easily trace the information by calling my credit card company. If they did mistakenly send two for the price of one, should I notify them so that they can correct the error and bill me for two? I want both. I slept well wearing two last night. I have some hand pain related to my work, the repeated motion of shaping bread.
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Edited by - bewell on May 16 2006 06:18:16 AM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 06:28:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
I believe that we are responsible for everything that happens to us. If somebody harms us, that is our past behaviour coming back to us, past lives included. ...
Does anybody here think God is unjust? You think any one thing that ever happens to you is not by God's will?
Chiron,
I think what happens in life is often unfair and unjust and indeed, as such, againt "God's will." |
Edited by - bewell on May 16 2006 06:31:39 AM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 07:43:54 AM
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For me it is God's will / Karma that brings up such situations.
And those situations are here for me to learn something.
I don't believe its God's will for me to suffer and accept
beeing trampled on me. I do have a choice of how to act.
Karma does not mean blindly accepting everything without
action. And if I do conciously decide to accept the suffering,
then that was my choice. Is it a good choice to accept it ?
Is it a bad choice to stand up to the injustice ?
It is my free choice and God does not judge if it is
good or bad. I only carry the consequences, and the
consequences may be desirable or unpleasant.
In my case I need to learn that I have a right to stand up,
but also I need to learn not to get so upset and emotional
about an injust case. If it is God's will that I have to
face injustice, then I may need to accept. In my case
it would mean to wait if the other side really goes to
court, then wait for the decision of the court and if
the court decides against me, I would then have to accept it.
with love and light
Wolfgang |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 08:58:17 AM
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Hi Chiron.. we create our own heaven and our own hell. For live times together we have accumulated impressions.. of what is good and what is bad. We believe that something bad has happened to us because we did something bad in this or our previous lifetime. I was a true believer of that. I lived through hell.. every day telling God I was sorry for all the wrong I did and please make it easier.. please make this pain go away.. I cried and prayed.. and wondered why God hated me so much.. Then one day I realized.. I was creating this hell for myself. God/Truth was always on my side.. I had such a dirty windshield that I could not see through it.. I was driving blind.. that did not mean God/Truth was not there... God/Truth made sure the car stayed on the road... that I did not go flying off the cliff since I had no idea where I was going..
God was not punishing me.. I was punishing myself.. all God/Truth wanted to do was hold my hand and pull me out of the quick sand I was sinking into..
AYP showed me how to clean this windshield and I still have a lot of cleaning to go through.. but now there is a slight clearing in the windshield.. and though I don't see everything clearly.. I know I am on the right track.. now I am ready to take God's/Truth's hand and get out.. the hand is in form of AYP.
So.. all the bad that happens.. yes it happens for a reason.. the reason is to some day get fed up and say.. come on there has to be more.. Not all of us are lucky to get this feeling of being completely lost... some may need to go through a few life times before they reach that point.. but all of us here at AYP have agreed to accept this helping hand that has been send our way... and there is light at the end of the tunnel.. God's light... The Truth...
If you go through the thread that Frank has been posting on.. "Being There"...you will realize that once we have reached a certain point.. there is no good or bad..
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1138
-Shweta
quote:
These lines are on Page 2..
"I would say that it is fair to say it's both emptiness and fullness, but the words can't touch it at all. Those approximations sounds "Logical" from HERE, in THERE they are meaningless."
During this time , how was your interactions with others? How did you 'see' them?
"There were NO OTHERS, there were no objects and most importantly no subject at all. You no longer exist, and what is left is not the world either. Its impossible for somebody else to be aware, because YOU ARE AWARENESS. Sorry I cant put this more clearly. Its really something you have to experience, not "understand" it.
Did you think much of God/Isvara at that time? (John's caps not mine)
"NOT AT ALL. You see. Everything you think is you. Everything you perceive is you. Everything absolutely everything that happens is you.
There is no possible separation of anything at all. In other words, everything that you think (like god) are just words. In THERE, those words lack any functional meaning."
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 3:04:01 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Wolfgang
...He responded, that surley I do
have the right for cancellation, but that he has to proceed
in giving me a warning for not paying, so that he can reclaim
his costs from Ebay. ...
... I am now threatened by them to pay for the goods (35€)
and on top of that an even higher amount for fees (40€).
If I should not pay, I am threatened with a court case...
Wolfgang,
I reread the thread and I think I now see the crux of your complaint. The seller admits your right to cancel; nevertheless, he is proceeding with a collection process, not because he expects you to go through with the purchase, but only to "reclaim his costs from ebay." How unlucky for you! My condolences.
Earlier you asked: "Should I turn the other cheek or should I
stand up for justice ? How are Jesus' words to be
understood ?"
Following the theme of trying to interpret what Jesus meant, it is also written that Jesus said:
"If you're due in court to answer a complaint, settle out of court as soon as you can."
http://www.templetons.com/charles/j...hapter9.html
I come from a Mennonite background where we take Jesus’ teaching very seriously. I would definitely give the seller what he wants in order to settle out of court as soon as possible. But I respect your freedom to refuse to pay. Let us know how it goes if there are further developments.
Bewell |
Edited by - bewell on May 16 2006 3:22:33 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 5:26:05 PM
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Bewell,
I'm not a Christian, but one possible reading of the text is that Jesus is making a parable of 'the court', meaning 'the karmic Law'. For possible context, look at the few lines before it:
Jesus said: [attributed]
But here is my teaching: I say that if a man is so much as angry at his brother he is in danger of God's judgement. So, if you happen to be in the sanctuary, praying, and remember a grievance someone has against you, postpone your praying and go and get things settled peacefully. Then, back to your worship.
"If you're due in court to answer a complaint, settle out of court as soon as you can. If you don't you may find that the plaintiff has brought you before the judge, and the judge has sentenced you, and the jailer has put you behind bars. You may be sure that you won't get out until you've paid your debt to the last penny.
Is he saying 'Settle your karmic debts now ('out of court'), because if you don't, you could face a terrible judgement on Judgement Day'.
I certainly don't believe that he means to yield to everyone who sues you.... at least not here and now in the U.S.!!! That would seem absurd to me!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 16 2006 5:26:47 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 9:20:45 PM
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of course it doesn't mean yield to whomever sues you. It means settle all rightful debts.
When you buy something on Ebay, it's a binding contract, and you have to pay for it, or
risk losing your privilege to do business there. I got a seller kicked off ebay for gross misrepresentation of a product. I got a refund, and kept the product too! But you have to follow their rules to the letter. I made several attempts to settle on a personal level first, and he refused. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2006 : 9:31:17 PM
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[b][purple]Jesus said: [attributed]
But here is my teaching: I say that if a man is so much as angry at his brother he is in danger of God's judgement. So, if you happen to be in the sanctuary, praying, and remember a grievance someone has against you, postpone your praying and go and get things settled peacefully. Then, back to your worship.
David,
I like bringing that saying into the interpretation: A paraphrase might be "If you are doing your meditation, and thoughts of some wrong you have done intrudes on your practice, first remedy the wrong, then return to meditation."
If doing restitution that keeps you out of court, all the better.
Bewell |
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Turn the other cheek - Injustice ?
