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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 08:28:15 AM
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Karl:
quote:
If its not permanent then it isn't real.
Pure Awareness has no memory or self.
Why not real? |
Edited by - miguel on Mar 24 2012 08:29:15 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 09:53:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by miguel
Karl:
quote:
If its not permanent then it isn't real.
Pure Awareness has no memory or self.
Why not real?
Am I creating a story/ attaching something false to an object.
I'm all in favour of blue sky and clouds, blue sky, or clouds. They need nothing from me and I need nothing from then. If I think a blue sky is good and a cloud is bad, or some other thought, then that's not real. The object is the object, just as I am an object, there is no difference in that way except materially.
So, if I have an experience, profound or otherwise I know it's an object in awareness and it gets treated as such. In a real way. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 10:33:42 AM
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Are you an object? really?
Ok. I understood that you were saying that the forms are no real due to its impermanent nature...maybe i undestood in a wrong way. Sorry. |
Edited by - miguel on Mar 24 2012 10:34:13 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 12:36:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by miguel
Are you an object? really?
Ok. I understood that you were saying that the forms are no real due to its impermanent nature...maybe i undestood in a wrong way. Sorry.
Yes, always an object in awareness. Not permanent, 'I' appears and disappears. It might seem derogatory, that's because of the identification and story attached to self. The awareness is always when I am, I don't need to think about it, it just is. When the body dies it is over, no story, no past, no future.
I'm not concerned if an object is an illusion or not as long as I can clearly label it an object and not some distortion. Equally I can like and dislike objects without any contradiction creeping in, because the like and dislike are also seen as objects. It's really workable because there is no disturbance, nothing to challenge, nothing to remove or add. Everything just as it is, seen for what it is without distortion. There is room then for everything in life, nothing is squeezed out or expected.
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 1:13:30 PM
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You are that awareness Karl. The "i" is just a tought that happens in you as awareness. As well with all the strories attached to that "i" tought. But you are not that, i mean you are the awareness and toughts happens in you as awareness creating an oniric matrix called karl and his life.
And yes, its always there no matter if you are aware of your real self or not...
Yes, objects that appear in you as awareness are real and only the mind judges, labels...etc...and that are objects(the thougts) also
So no problem with objects cz they are just there...the problem is when we identify our real self with the objects that appear in that real self like the "i" thought. Thats the main cause of suffering arising as dramatic stories about a false entity that we think we are. And thats false. Ilusion.A dream...
Direct inquiry in that "i" tought is the medicine. Thats why we are here he
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Edited by - miguel on Mar 24 2012 1:17:19 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 3:22:21 PM
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Are you saying that you are not the person you are? Do you deny your existence?
Is there another, other than you that can be defined as more real than you are right this moment?
You are aware, you became aware when you woke up and not before. So does that make you awareness? Does awareness have memory, form, colour, texture? Is awareness an object?
See, if I hit your knee with a hammer then you willrobably be shocked, annoyed and then feel enveloped in pain. You can talk about identification and suffering if you want, but I can guarantee that will pretty much be the way it will go.
So can that pain be avoided, well you could avoid the pain by getting away, you could get hypnotised or take an anaesthetic. You might even say that in your own world getting hit with a hammer cannot happen. Awareness doesn't care if you feel pain, you will avoid pain if you can, are you still awareness ?
The ' I ' could have been wired any number of ways, but from the earliest of times it knows what pain is. Awareness doesn't suffer at all, never will, never can. So it's completely natural to feel pain.
Pain implies suffering, but it's not. It's only suffering if you add a story to it, otherwise it's just another object in awareness. I know this first hand, one of the worst pains you can suffer is a kidney stone, it hurt like hell, I was in agony, but I didn't suffer one bit ( didn't need to do any inquiry to know that at the time). Later came the stories, worry about holidays, when it might happen again, was I prone to it etc etc...there go the stories.
Same again when I broke my arm in a motorcycle accident, hurt like hell, but no way they were going to cut off my new leather jacket I would rather pass out from the intensity of the pain than get the jacket damaged. After came the stories, the time off work, no money, debts. Blaming it on bad roads, tyres, loads of stuff that grew out of a simple incident like a virus. I began suffering after the accident because of the stories.
Until recently I was unable to view this in an undistorted way. The accident, the kidney stone had all been integrated into the 'I' that is Karl if you like. Now it is just a series of coincidental objects, there is no story, none is required. I learned it best not too fall off bikes and to make sure that I drink plenty of fluids.
I don't need to see it in some mysterious way, some other sphere of conscious expansion, just exactly as it is, no distortion of anything, just very simple stuff.
Just like a child, fall over, boo hoo, ow that hurt, put a plaster on it mummy, remember to tie shoe laces next time...EOL. It's crazy that it has taken me NLP and several years of meditation to realise that, but hey, I'm a slow learner
That's an even bigger ramble, not worth the cyber space it is written on either. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 4:18:42 PM
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Hi Karl,
No, im not that person. That person is just a collection of toughts, a dream, an ilusion. Im awareness that is aware of itself. I dont deny my existence. Im awareness. And i dont deny the existence of Miguel as an ilusion happening in that awareness. But Miguel is not real!
Well, we are always aware and we are always awareness. Look at you. You are aware that you exist. Thats a fact youre aware and awareness all the time!hehe...waking up doesnt change anything at all cz only illusion is seen and it never had any power or role in life cz is not real. What is real always was here and always will be here...
Awareness has no atributtes or labels and is not an object.Its free from all label or atributte.It just is.You cant grasp it. Object happens in that awareness that you are and that objects are real also. They happen in the awareness. If you try to grasp awareness you lose it.You cant grasp what you already are...you have to un-grasp to "get it" and to "un-grasp"
the ilusory entity that believes that is grasping.At the end all happens by itself.Nobody doing it. Thats the real thing.
Pain exists and is very real. If you hit me with a hammer for sure that it will hurt like hell haha. Theres a body here happening and has its nerves and that things. But this body has no real owner. Theres no Miguel as a real thing. So the body will feel the pain as always and maybe the stories can come also, why not? the mind can create some of them...thats his work hehe... but they are seem as they are: metal stories thats happens to nobody. They just happen, they come and go...and if theres a feeling of identificaction with them they are inquired and easily they dissapear...or the simple awareness of the present moment dissolve them... cz they are nourished by past and future and those are toughts also. The present moment burns all the ilusory identification and dream. But after all its true that mental stories are less than before and living in the present moment is the only real thing that is being seen here increasingly.Life always happens now.You cant avoid it. |
Edited by - miguel on Mar 24 2012 4:31:27 PM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 4:41:26 PM
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| And you wake up..wow...from nothing...nobody wake up cz you never was that false entity..so its a dream also...it always is there...you as pure awareness and very awake now he. A crazy joke... |
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 8:44:15 PM
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quote:
I stick to those two rules because they make logical sense: if you experience anything it is impermanent.
If its not permanent then it isn't real.
Pure Awareness has no memory or self.
I cant really stick to that. Over a decade ago, I thought the way everything was, normal waking consciousness, was permanent. Eventually through prayer and deep meditations, certain activations took place and completely changed the permanence.
Even Awareness itself, at times bland with nothing, at other times at the center of awareness it is blissful and super energetic.
Then, at other times, in momentary glimpses, that Awareness (beyond thoughts or mind) vanishes into an Ocean of Nothingness/Emptiness/Everythingness and there is no I there to even experience That.
Saying that, what is permanent then because there different states including one's where there is no Observer.
______
Oh and Miguel, what I wanted to say is the part about sometimes Awareness is clear Skylike, but then sometimes at its very Center is when its so extremely energetic and almost too much to handle for the body.
So perhaps awareness itself and its center. Perhaps seasonal changes. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 08:03:47 AM
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Hi Miguel,
I'm struggling to see where we differ here. What do you see as different ?
You say Miguel is not real and is a collection of thoughts etc....
Which fits beautifully with ' if it is impermanent it is not real' no conflict at all.
You say awareness cannot be grasped.
Which again fits with ' awareness is not an object, doesn't have colour or texture.
You would feel pain if hit with a hammer.
This is the only area where your answer reveals a subtle difference. You say you are not Miguel and that you react to the pain from the position of being nothing.
This is a subtle, but fundamental difference. It was the way I used to think, for me it was an idealistic view, although as experienced was a truth. It's a good way of explaining away something that is intellectually understood. For me it did not chime with reality.
The Gurus all say what you are saying, 12 months ago I was of that understanding, it fits very neatly into a philosophy, but something didnt ring quite true. It always seemed like the 'emperors new clothes' if you know that story.
The difference is in application. It doesn't matter that it happens in awareness, or that I don't really exist, it's a useful way of thinking but is less practical than the illusory reality. So, then it doesn't matter if it's like a dream or something else, instead of using the idealistic philosophy ( here we probably do not agree ) I just face the challenges of that illusory reality without attachment to stories. I don't make a story about why I feel anger, pain, joy or whatever, they just become objects in awareness and not in some strange otherworldly view, but because that's exactly how they present themselves. Everything as it is, accepted, fine, move on. I don't try and silence the object no matter what it is, neither is there a need to grasp it.
I think this is where the approach differs, it's not actually a huge difference, just a subtle change.
For me, the idea of none existence, pure awareness just wore thin, it exposed cracks, the more I dug with inquiry the more it fragmented and shattered. I saw it as yet another illusion. I realised that it really didn't matter if it was illusion or something else. All points summ to zero. Instead there was a need to deal with what presented with greater insight and clarity and that was what happened.
I accept your own understanding, perception or whatever we want to call it and see that it works well for you, it didn't work well for me, although it was a great buffer at the time. Maybe I am in regression, that's of no consequence to me, just another object. I accept either way is fine. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 08:10:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by beetsmyth
quote:
I stick to those two rules because they make logical sense: if you experience anything it is impermanent.
If its not permanent then it isn't real.
Pure Awareness has no memory or self.
I cant really stick to that. Over a decade ago, I thought the way everything was, normal waking consciousness, was permanent. Eventually through prayer and deep meditations, certain activations took place and completely changed the permanence.
Even Awareness itself, at times bland with nothing, at other times at the center of awareness it is blissful and super energetic.
Then, at other times, in momentary glimpses, that Awareness (beyond thoughts or mind) vanishes into an Ocean of Nothingness/Emptiness/Everythingness and there is no I there to even experience That.
Saying that, what is permanent then because there different states including one's where there is no Observer.
______
Oh and Miguel, what I wanted to say is the part about sometimes Awareness is clear Skylike, but then sometimes at its very Center is when its so extremely energetic and almost too much to handle for the body.
So perhaps awareness itself and its center. Perhaps seasonal changes.
Yes, I can see what you are saying. That immediately points to none relational self inquiry. I think not enough stillness has been developed. More and greater depth is required. Without it, everything is surface. As such, those two rules won't make much sense if they are applied in a world where rock stable stability has not yet developed.
So, then, practices and self pacing until it all integrates is my gentle suggestion. It will work itself out in the end whatever happens, Bon voyage. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 10:41:48 AM
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quote:
Bon voyage
thank u captain |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 12:25:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
Bon voyage
thank u captain
Shiver ma timbers and a bottle of rum me hearties. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 1:04:04 PM
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 1:45:31 PM
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quote:
So, then, practices and self pacing until it all integrates is my gentle suggestion. It will work itself out in the end whatever happens, Bon voyage
Thanks Karl...
Yeah thats what I figured, just more stabilization as Awareness will do it. n retrospect this whole post was from Mind and its frustrations.
As far as Von Boyage ...thats fine by me. I've always hated myself and never understood why, until one day when I saw that the I that I hated was the Ego imposter self. So if some final end to that comes, I welcome my end and impatiently look forward to it. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 2:23:19 PM
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| It means good journey. A fair wind and a following sea and bright stars to steer by |
Edited by - karl on Mar 25 2012 4:01:56 PM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 4:28:20 PM
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Hi Karl,
Well...
quote:
You say Miguel is not real and is a collection of thoughts etc....
Which fits beautifully with ' if it is impermanent it is not real' no conflict at all.
Is not 100% true that Miguel isnt real. I prefer to say that Miguel is a collection of real toughts that creates a real illusion about Miguel. I mean (i know it sounds contradictory but theres a subtle difference here...) Miguel as ilusion is real.Is real as an ilusion. The ilusion happens.But Miguel as Miguel is not real. But the fact that theres an ilusion happening is real.
I mean the phenomena of the dream called Miguel and his life story is real. But the content (Miguel and his life story)
is not real. Ypu see the subtle difference? Thats what i mean. And this ilusion, this thoughts,body,mind are impermanent like everybody perfectly knows...they dont last forever...
quote:
You would feel pain if hit with a hammer.
This is the only area where your answer reveals a subtle difference. You say you are not Miguel and that you react to the pain from the position of being nothing.
Well...not from the position of being nothing cz I AM, and i am very real as awareness.I exist as that. So...nothing is not the right word here...
just i am awareness and the body and the pain are REAL phenomena that happens in me as awareness...
And this is not intelectual understandiing...this is "direct experience" here...so its very practical...
I prefer to end my participation in this treath cz i dont feel very well lately and dont feel the need to continue this conversation.So please...end of the conversation from here.Thanks...should be out for a while.
Thanks karl and everybody.
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Edited by - miguel on Mar 25 2012 5:21:01 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 5:12:21 PM
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The Novel of Life - Adyashanti
When you read a novel, and you read about various characters, you may like some and not like others. Or when you watch a movie, think about your relationship with the characters. You might like them; you might not like them - but you're not finding your sense of self in them. You're not referencing your self-worth by the characters in a novel or when you turn on the TV. You just have your thoughts about them.
But imagine if you turned on your TV or you read a novel and you actually completely derived your sense of being and your sense of self from one of the characters. Immediately your perspective is very different, isn't it? Now your perspective has gone from something that's very vast to something that's very limited, seen only through the eyes of the character. Sadly, that's how most human beings spend their lives. They have this little character in their mind called "me," and they're actually viewing that "me" as personal when it's not.
The "me" is very impersonal, not meaning cold or distant, but just meaning without inherent self nature, in the same way that when you read a book, the characters are without self nature. They actually don't exist outside of your imagination. They don't even exist in the book, because the book is just words. And without someone reading the words and bringing it all alive within imagination, nothing even exists on the printed page. It's all within the reader, all the life.
When the Buddha talked about the realization of no-self, he was talking about the self that's an image in the mind being completely seen through. And when there is no image of self, experience has nothing to bounce off of. Everything just is as it is, because there's no secondary interpretation. The one that's interpreting is the one that's in pain. And that's the one who suffers. That's the one who causes others to suffer.
The false self, the self that's an image in the mind, uses every experience to measure itself: "How am I in relationship to what's happening? Am I wise? Am I stupid? Am I clumsy? Am I courageous? Am I enlightened about this?" That's the movement of consciousness reflecting on an image of itself that doesn't actually exist. It's always measuring each and every experience, and then believing in the interpretation of the experience rather than seeing "Everything just is."
Everything actually just is. From the perspective of consciousness, even resistance just is. And if you resist resistance, that's just what is. You can't get away from it. You start to see that the only thing that goes into resistance, a story, or an interpretation of what is - whatever it is - is this mind-created persona. It's like a character in a novel. When you read a novel, every character has a point of view. It has beliefs. It has opinions. There's something that makes it distinct from other characters. Our persona is literally this mind-created character that's always making itself distinct. So it always needs to evaluate everything against its preconceived idea.
There's another vantage point. The other vantage point is not only outside the character, it's also inside the character. It's the ultimate vantage point that's outside, and it's also playing all the parts from the inside.
That's basically what it means to really wake up: we're waking up from the character. You don't have to destroy the character called "me" to wake up from it. In fact, trying to destroy the character makes it very hard to wake up. Because what's trying to destroy the character? The character. What's judging the character? The character.
So you leave the character alone. The character called you, just leave it alone. Then it's much easier for the awakening out of that perspective to happen.
You don't lose the character; you just gain the whole novel of life. It's not like you lose anything. You just gain the whole book. You gain the whole universe. As Buddha would say, "Lose yourself, gain the universe." It's not a bad deal. Or Dogen: "To know yourself is to forget yourself, and to forget yourself is to be enlightened by the 10,000 things," which means to see yourself everywhere. Wake up from your character, and then you see your self nature in all characters - not just one, but all of them.
So we don't lose anything. We gain all characters. We just lose the fixation, that's all.
- Adyashanti |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 5:13:44 PM
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Cool, as long as its working then none of it matters really. 
Ah EMC we cross posted. Yes that is how it seems, although perhaps there is a level of individuality mixed in, or interpretation. It's strange as this is arriving as objects, just like a series of train carriages. Peek inside have a look I cannot tell where they come from or where they are going, all contain fragments that are instantly recognisable, some jumbled up, all of them connected. they are all the same. Like a broken DNA chain a repeating complex pattern rearranged in infinite ways.
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Edited by - karl on Mar 25 2012 5:34:21 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 6:30:40 PM
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LOL. You boys sure do like playin' them word games. It's like watching tap-dancers a' frolickin' to and fro. Except you's a' usin' fancy words instead of shiny shoes. Ain't that somethin'! Yeehaw!
[Said in my best cowboy voice] |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 6:39:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
LOL. You boys sure do like playin' them word games. It's like watching tap-dancers a' frolickin' to and fro. Except you's a' usin' fancy words instead of shiny shoes. Ain't that somethin'! Yeehaw!
[Said in my best cowboy voice]
It's a hoedown don't you know. Here's another dance partner. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 6:55:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
It's a hoedown don't you know. Here's another dance partner.
LOL. That's the spirit, Karl. Thank you. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2012 : 02:17:42 AM
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in short:
miguel is real...but it is not the real You
therefore miguel is unreal
neverthless enjoy the game of life as miguel |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2012 : 05:37:22 AM
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Well...this is not right. Just to clarify and as a final point here cz i will not continue my participation in the treath like i said before...:
Miguel is real as an ilusion....and Miguel is part of the real Me (non duality/no separation).
Therefore Miguel is real as an ilusion. As a collection of toughts creating the Miguel ilsuory phenomena. Thoughts exist. The hologram in consciousness called Miguel exist as an ilusion, but its not a real entity.No solid substance...no real entity.
Before waking up theres exclusive identification wih the ilusory character and ignorance about who you really are. After waking up theres no exclusive identification. You "become aware" of the whole picture that you are (comprehension that is different from mental exercices).And the false you is part of the game that happens in you as conscioussness. Theres no separation. No separete entity called Miguel. Its part of the real Me (as an ilusion that happens).
Comprenhesion is the real fire for ignorance.Its not mental understanding.
Bye and thank u.
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Edited by - miguel on Mar 26 2012 05:52:02 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2012 : 12:30:43 PM
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| Hope you feel better Miguel. |
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Arggh!! Lost state of Awareness. Get back?
