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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 21 2012 : 8:56:26 PM
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So I've been in that state a few times now with symptom overloads, completely beyond the mind, with no I anywhere.
Of course we have lives and work, well I hadn't stabilized that state enough and now its gone, and Im back in the illusuory mind.
How does one get back to That, even though we already are That (which my mind understands conceptually, yet not as direct experience)???
Everything I have read about this online gives meditation techniques and some say it could take years to get to this, yet for me it's always been instant, like flipping a light switch .... oh and I cant recreate how I got to the State of Awareness from the last few times.
AAAARRRRGGGGGGhhhh!!!! Help!!! |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2012 : 02:24:49 AM
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Dear Beetsmyth
Wouldn't we all wish it was that easy ! What you had was a fore-taste, a glimpse to tease bhakti and make you strive for That. 
However, earth calling Beetsymth, the solution is Practice, Practice, Practice ! And not getting attached to results
Good luck
Sey |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2012 : 05:34:57 AM
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It is for most not a sudden shift. It takes EFFORT to LOOK and LOOK and LOOK into what pulls you back into mind. Get to know Thyself!!!! Investigate with The Work or other methods. The Truth is already constantly here. What is pulling you away from it? What are you still believing in? Which thoughts are repetitively making you believe you are an entity of you own that "I" is referring to?
For me - the key was to find the false in the thought "Gaaaah, I am struggling so much" as if that should not happen! And I realized the total impossibility of a "ME" struggling. There's wanting, needing and struggling resulting from a belief in thoughts that contain the word "I". And I looked and looked and looked and searched for the entity with a constitution of its own that was behind that "I". And I found there's noone or nothing I can concretely point to exist behind that I. So there's wanting, needing and struggling in awareness. Period. And then there was an insight there's noone there to change that either. The only possible choice was to LET IT BE THERE!!!! If there's noone behind the "I" - who's struggling?
Relax and enjoy the struggling and see what happens, when there's no longer any belief there's a "ME" there doing it and there's no need to get rid of the struggling! Cause that's What is, now. 
This Mooji video is superb! "The fire of Self-discovery".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3xCmSNb_sc |
Edited by - emc on Mar 22 2012 05:39:39 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2012 : 07:19:14 AM
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Enjoy the struggle, even when it's hurting its working.
Anytime you feel you were in a state of awareness, instead you were in an illusory state of awareness, no more real than any other 'state'. Losing this sense of illusory awareness is just what the Guru ordered. If we keep pruning, then we get a good fruit tree. |
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2012 : 4:58:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Anytime you feel you were in a state of awareness, instead you were in an illusory state of awareness, no more real than any other 'state'.
Thats the thing...... this state was not a state, but it was the Real Me devoid of Illusion. With it came remembrances of existing prior to this earth life as a Unit of that Awareness.
In a sense I am still that, but somewhat out of that, if it makes sense. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2012 : 5:17:05 PM
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Keep investigating. What is still that, what is still out of that? Find the entity that can be in two places... if it is possible to find!?  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2012 : 6:56:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by beetsmyth
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Anytime you feel you were in a state of awareness, instead you were in an illusory state of awareness, no more real than any other 'state'.
Thats the thing...... this state was not a state, but it was the Real Me devoid of Illusion. With it came remembrances of existing prior to this earth life as a Unit of that Awareness.
In a sense I am still that, but somewhat out of that, if it makes sense.
Well this is a delicate situation, because you believe you have attained something and there is an intellectual understanding that is a great convincer for the mind,
So for the purposes of understanding what might be going on, then if we apply some of the well known thoughts from Gurus such as Sri Ramana Marahashi.
Anything that is not permanent is an illusion. So if you have changed from one thing to another then these are illusions according to Marahashi.
True awareness is during the unconscious state of deep dreamless sleep. There are no remembrances or forms. Can you find any?
It's something you have to find for yourself. Is it true for you? Only you can dig and check. It's a guide you are free to test.
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 12:07:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by beetsmyth
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Anytime you feel you were in a state of awareness, instead you were in an illusory state of awareness, no more real than any other 'state'.
Thats the thing...... this state was not a state, but it was the Real Me devoid of Illusion. With it came remembrances of existing prior to this earth life as a Unit of that Awareness.
In a sense I am still that, but somewhat out of that, if it makes sense.
True awareness is during the unconscious state of deep dreamless sleep. There are no remembrances or forms. Can you find any?
It's something you have to find for yourself. Is it true for you? Only you can dig and check. It's a guide you are free to test.
Yeah thats how I know it was True awareness, because for weeks there were overload symptoms and there was awareness all through deep sleep and so forth, and very energetic. I know that all this posting is "Mind" stuff...
.....however it was also through Mind that mind deciphered remembering pre-existing as Awareness Prior to Earth ...
This Formless Oneness state is Prior to even Awareness. Its like Mind, take step back....
Awareness, surrender into....
Oneness (No I, No Awareness, Just One Infinite Beingness)
w all the mind crap its back to the beginning though. Ok let me sit with all your replies and work this out |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 07:23:02 AM
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| beetsmyth, I've always loved Adyashanti who takes a position different than Karl. If you've seen Truth, you've seen truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. No matter if it was for a glimpse of a second, 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months or more. When the "gravity of mind" comes into the picture again, it does not take away the fact that what was seen/known was the Truth, the real thing. I was also told it was not "it" after such a glimpse of the deeper and longer type, and it brought enormous confusion when that thought was believed. Cause if you've seen truth and then are told it's not the truth... it doesn't give very many options left of what Truth might be... So why not keep it simple. If you've touched truth you know it. Go look for what mind gravity is made of. What's that game about? For me it was much more fruitful than arguing whether it truly was the Truth or not! It's useless, confusing and exhausting IMHO. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 07:38:24 AM
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Hi beetsnith,
If you are longing for a permanent state of bliss and happiness and no mind forget about it cz it doesnt exist.
States always come and go like sadness, happiness...dont get attached to them cz its slavey and creeate much suffering. Accept life as it comes.
If you had a glimpse of that thats a very good thing,
The ilusory mind will never dissapear but its a good thing to know that it is ilusory cz it starts to lose its power over you and you begin to be "the master of your mind".Thats a good thing also:)
quote:
How does one get back to That, even though we already are That (which my mind understands conceptually, yet not as direct experience)???
You cant never be out of That cz you are that all the time. The ony thing that seems to be pulling you out from that is just the question that you are asking your self. Remove the question and you have the answer.You know, there are no questions and no answers. They just seem to get us out of the present moment. The question is illusory and is putting self realization in the future=ilusion. But now you are already realized cz you are That now, here in this moment. Remove the question. The question is the real problem.
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Edited by - miguel on Mar 23 2012 07:44:08 AM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 07:49:56 AM
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quote:
Thats the thing...... this state was not a state, but it was the Real Me devoid of Illusion. With it came remembrances of existing prior to this earth life as a Unit of that Awareness.
Oh isee.That was a good thing. But that clarity comes and goes also. But impermanent also. Forget about it. Focus yur self in the present moment and avoid creating new story and a dream about it cz it creates more slavery and get you far from the freedom that is already here and now. |
Edited by - miguel on Mar 23 2012 07:52:50 AM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 07:57:45 AM
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| You are starting from the point that you are a person that is un-enlightened and you start seeking freedom. But that person is not real, just a collection of thughts. Focus the inquiry in that illusory entity that is searching for freedom. The ilusory entity and the search are the main problem that get you out from the realization that you already are. Inquiry it. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 08:00:22 AM
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Reply to EMC posting.
Yes, but why then suffer at it's loss.
This is why, when something isn't lasting it is illusion. If you glimpse it then you know it, that cannot be lost.
It's not really a stance. I would have posted more but tried to keep it simple. For the individual the experience is real, there is no doubt about that and it cannot be discredited in any way.
If you have an experience, it is an object. It's like having a really good holiday where you experience complete relaxation and want it to be that way for ever. You think " that is the true me". That experience is very real and inspirational. The problem is that you come back off holiday and wonder where that relaxed person went. It means you constantly seek to re-experience that state and there is suffering when it cannot be found.
All these experiences are just objects, objects appear and disappear within awareness. You form attachments to objects but you cannot form an attachment to awareness because it is not an object, it is a constant.
By all means let the experience drive the Bakhti but if it has dissolved into some thing which is grieved over because of its loss, then it can become a fundamental goal. Encouraging the belief that it is a fundamental goal can hinder things at least in the short term.
In effect it is just scenery and while there is certainly nothing wrong with enjoying it, mourning it's loss, or making it a goal can be a side track.
Miguel.......exactly but you seemed to put it in a better way
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Edited by - karl on Mar 23 2012 08:14:44 AM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 08:13:37 AM
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All that can be experienced and percieved by you is impermanent. And object that will not last. You are seeking your real self as if it was and object. But its not an object that can be percieved or experienced cz you are it. You cant grasp it. Its imposible and no sense.
You are considering it as if it was separated from you.
But keep searching if you feel it, cz its a good and necesary thing and part of the "journey" phase. |
Edited by - miguel on Mar 23 2012 08:19:02 AM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 08:27:50 AM
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Hey Karl!
Big hugs for u. Its a good thing to inquire together. |
Edited by - miguel on Mar 23 2012 08:29:30 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 08:35:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by miguel
Hey Karl!
Big hugs for u. Its a good thing to inquire together.
loving it.
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 08:42:42 AM
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| Big hugs fort you man |
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 2:15:31 PM
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Ok let me break down a little bit more here.
There seems to be 3 things going here.
1. The mind level and the I thought and everything that is associated with that. Yes all Illusion. Ok so this is all understood conceptually and as direct experience by this Illusuory I thought.
2. Awareness is that which is prior to Thought and aware of the comings and goings of all the thoughts, the body, the senses, etc.
2a. There seems to be a simple and free flowing aspect of Awareness as crystal clear, present, and Now (timeless)
2b. There seems to be an energetic quality of Awareness where it is inundated with massive amounts of energy and light (yes still all scenery)
3*. Here at this point, while as awareness and with Surrender, there seems to be a vertical drop down from Awareness into a Unitive state where there no longer is neither Thought nor Awareness anywhere at all. It is some sort of undifferentiated state where there is both nothing and everything all without labels and yet with no I there to even be aware of it.... nothing can be said of it, yet it experiences itself and this whole description of it is of course in retrospect using Mind to decipher.
At the end of the day, yes Awareness is always there. However the Unitive state ....I dont know if its always there or not. It is "Its" own thing ....whether its there or not of its own accord, I believe it is.
So for me returning to Union happens as such.
1. Somehow I spontaneously shift from Mind Identity to the Center of Awareness (2b. with the high energetic qualities)
2. While in this Center, with surrender, I drop down vertically and end up where there is no even any Awareness at all, where Everything is One.
...and while that Oneness is there...any misstep of the mind or inkling of thought, seems to re-establish Awareness and the Oneness comes to an end. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 2:54:15 PM
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Hi beetshmyth,
1.This got my attention:
quote:
1. The mind level and the I thought and everything that is associated with that. Yes all Illusion. Ok so this is all understood conceptually and as direct experience by this Illusuory I thought.
Is it possible for a tought, the i tought, to see that "he" and the mind are ilusion?. Observe because there is a false identification here. Who is realizing this is the awareness that you already are. Awareness becoming aware of itself.
2.yes.
2a.yes
2b.Yes, scenery happening from that awareness that you are.Like flowers, your body or rivers.
3.Yes. This is awareness also because you remember it and are describing it. You are just "experiencing it" with more clarity. But its always there. Thats why its not an experience. Only that the ilusory veil is less dense. Here you experience the truth of who you are with more clarity: oneness. No separation.
Awareness, the unitive state are always there. All is always here but the ilusion "hide" it. (seems to hide it cz after all ilusion is ilusion)
quote:
1. Somehow I spontaneously shift from Mind Identity to the Center of Awareness (2b. with the high energetic qualities)
2. While in this Center, with surrender, I drop down vertically and end up where there is no even any Awareness at all, where Everything is One.
Yes, this is a deepening probably as a result of meditation practices.
quote:
...and while that Oneness is there...any misstep of the mind or inkling of thought, seems to re-establish Awareness and the Oneness comes to an end.
Oneness and awarenes are the same thing. Maybe what you call here awareness is identification with the ilusory self.False identification with ilusion returning again.Scenary that happens in you as permanent awareness. Part of the game. No separation. |
Edited by - miguel on Mar 23 2012 3:08:45 PM |
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 3:09:00 PM
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quote:
Is it possible for a tought, the i tought, to see that "he" and the mind are ilusion?. Observe because there is a false identification here. Who is realizing this is the awareness that you already are. Awareness becoming aware of itself.
Somehow, I saw that all mind stuff including the thinker is Illusion, and in the aftermath, left a clarity, presence, Now-ness, freedom, laughter, etc.
I don't know if Awareness has the ability to think or realize (as thinking and realizing are observed by Awareness
In a sense, when these spontaneous shifts happen, I am free from I. Just kind of floating and aware. However, surrender is still required to sink down into Oneness.
quote:
2a.yes, but it doesnt flow. Only objects and forms in that awareness do that.But yes also cz all they are one.
What I meant is there is a flow to that state, everything flows into and out of That ...like a hose w/ water passing through it.
quote:
Awareness, the unitive state are always there. All is always here but the ilusion "hide" it. (seems to hide it cz after all ilusion is ilusion)
There seems to be a difference between Awareness itself and Oneness. With Awareness, it still seems as though it is a Unit of Awareness, located somewhere in the center of the head. Sometimes it is able to come out of the body and float around (All spontaneous ...its like I have no control over it at this point)
....whereas the Oneness is prior to Awareness as a Unit. And even in that Oneness state, there is no longer any awareness.
quote:
Oneness and awarenes are the same thing. Maybe what you call here awareness is identification with the ilusory self.
There does seem to be a difference. When the 'I' as thought falls off and mind is seen as illusion, in the falling away of all that, Awareness is Aware of all that taking place. But then, Awareness is not in Oneness ...it is in a sense its own small Unit. Only in vertical surrender does that Oneness manifest.
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 3:11:51 PM
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Also, what sux is that there is nothing you can do to make this happen. Its such a paradox because in order for all this to take place did involve me inquiring and studying Advaita and myself. As a result, the spontaneous shifts happened. And then shifting back to mind identity ..... your saying illusion is still blocking all of Truth. And yet there is nothing I can do to unblock illusion because the doer is also illusion.
There's alot of traps in this ...."says the illusuory I" |
Edited by - beetsmyth on Mar 23 2012 3:23:39 PM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 3:45:22 PM
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Yes, thats true, theres nothing you can do
Not a paradox at all..all that you are doing happens but we tend to belive that we are the makers, but thats not true. Things just happens...to nobody...
Its normal to go back to mind and identification. Is part of the game. But now you know that you are not that and thats a good thing cz the desire to get freedom starts there.
Ilusion will always be there, it will never dissapear and its impossible to experience the pure truth that you are all the time, i mean consciously.I mean to rest as pure awareness all the time. Its normal that the attention is focused in the body and in the "i sensation"...
Theres nothing you can do to unblock ilusion cz theres no you...but much more..you dont have to do really nothing cz only the false i do such things and all is already here and the dream is just that, a dream that happens in You, including you looking for enlightenment. And thats awakening or enlightement...call it as you want...and it cannot be attained...only from the dream state we say that...
The ilusory i is just a thought. The inquiry must be focused there.
We have 0% control over life. We are just life happening. |
Edited by - miguel on Mar 23 2012 3:56:46 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 5:14:20 PM
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| Yes, the sense of "I" will be there. And we are paradoxically enough individualized consciousness - "unit" as you say. You are looking out through your eyes, not mine. Never will. We are 7 billion - all one humanity, one form, one existence - but you will never be able to take in sensory input from all living beings at once! Just let it be there like a perfume. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 5:33:50 PM
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Karl, have you experienced true seeing and then fallen back into identification with "I"? If not, it's very difficult to explain what it's like. Sort of the same thing as explaining "truth" to someone who's not seeing it in direct experience. You can't grasp the absurdity of it with your mind, it shuns all logic. It doesn't fit any advaita proclaims. Still, it happens and is perfectly described by many (Adyashanti, Mooji, Lucille etc). In a video I saw recently with Lucille he made a metaphore of a sky. It's always blue behind the clouds. But we first only see clouds. Then we might get a glimpse of the blue and realized there's something more here. Then there can be a shift where there's more blue than clouds and eventually we are mostly blue sky, but still have a cloud or two coming our way. That cloud always brings identification with "I", suffering and a sense of "losing" the blue sky. That seems to be the design of it.
Mooji even finally threw out one of his disciples who got addicted to "seeing through the illusion" and wanted to experience it again and again - same hoot everytime!
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Edited by - emc on Mar 23 2012 5:40:10 PM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 02:58:51 AM
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| thank you for your insightful post miguel |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 07:07:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Karl, have you experienced true seeing and then fallen back into identification with "I"? If not, it's very difficult to explain what it's like. Sort of the same thing as explaining "truth" to someone who's not seeing it in direct experience. You can't grasp the absurdity of it with your mind, it shuns all logic. It doesn't fit any advaita proclaims. Still, it happens and is perfectly described by many (Adyashanti, Mooji, Lucille etc). In a video I saw recently with Lucille he made a metaphore of a sky. It's always blue behind the clouds. But we first only see clouds. Then we might get a glimpse of the blue and realized there's something more here. Then there can be a shift where there's more blue than clouds and eventually we are mostly blue sky, but still have a cloud or two coming our way. That cloud always brings identification with "I", suffering and a sense of "losing" the blue sky. That seems to be the design of it.
Mooji even finally threw out one of his disciples who got addicted to "seeing through the illusion" and wanted to experience it again and again - same hoot everytime!
I stick to those two rules because they make logical sense: if you experience anything it is impermanent.
If its not permanent then it isn't real.
Pure Awareness has no memory or self.
They are great rules because they keep the mind from spinning new illusions. If you use those rules as filters then you define what is at all times.
You have experienced the great vacuum cleaner trying to suck itself into nothingness, the mind cannot comprehend nothingness. Just like any equation which has no solution, the mind invents one, a symbol. Keep on battering at it as much as you like, the mind just finds an oasis in the desert, a peace in the turbulent river, it is brought to stillness, but it cannot stay in stillness.
So, you seek that stillness, mourn its loss and suffer because of the seeming loss. It's just more scenery and is just another stage. I'm only pointing that out so you can see it is a blind alley, if you see it as Nirvana then it will be an experiential goal. I've been there many times, like a butterfly is drawn to nectar. The mind will provide that moment of unbridled bliss before replacing it with unbridled sorrow. See it as it is. Open your eyes fully.
I really don't know if this is helpful, I think maybe you just have to keep kicking yourself until your awake, it will take as long as it takes, everyone has a different route and they are infinitely diverse. It's like solving a maze, you have to find the dead ends for yourself and devise your own rules as you go. It's a huge and complex maze and has an infinite labarinthe complexity generated by the mind.
So, I cannot say your experience is wrong, I cannot argue with Mooji or Ady. Nothing can take away that experience because it was totally real. It's like arguing that a dream is wrong, it's like, who cares ? I can empathise because I have had that experience, I know it's strength and attraction. How to differentiate real from illusion in a world that is either all real, or all illusion. Only a fool would seek to build those castles in the sky.
Anyway, enough rambling, it's quite likely as pointless as the wind sighing in the pine trees.
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Arggh!! Lost state of Awareness. Get back?
