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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
 Posted - May 26 2006 : 5:42:42 PM
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Dave said:
Surrender to the guru does not make you his slave nor do you have to mythologise him.
Agreed. Not everyone over-mythologizes their guru. Surrender is not automatically mythologization. I don't intend to be implying that all of these relationships are out-of-whack. It's a matter of where the expectations are in each particular case.
I have read your recent posts on mythology and I must say you are in the danger of mythologising AYP and Yogani as being the best thing since sliced bread.
Honestly Dave, I'm truly at loss to see where I mythologize AYP and Yogani. I'm positive and enthusiastic about AYP, but I don't think I mythologize it. Do feel free to bring forward any examples where I might have gone overboard in my praise or expectations. I would be happy to change them if I have gone too far.
I look on Yogani as a Rishi, not a guru. Rishi to me is close in meaning to 'expert'. I don't mean 'expert' lightly, but on the other hand I don't expect perfection, and if or whenever I think I see imperfect knowledge (and I think I do occasionally) I neither fuss about it nor mythologize it away. But the truth is that he is much more experienced and knowledgeable and much further on most aspects of this path than I am. Is that mythologization on my part? Hardly.
I neither let my ego delude me into thinking I am as much a Rishi as Yogani, nor delude myself into thinking he knows all of it. That's balance, and I think I neither mythologize myself nor him. A favor to both of us! 
Yogani, please say 'thanks' because I am not mythologizing you.
The guru is in you.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 26 2006 6:01:12 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2006 : 11:27:21 PM
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Hi David and Dave:
Thanks for keeping it in balance. I think the time when surrender to another has substantial spiritual benefit is when the other refuses it. Then there is a tension created that is to the benefit of the one who is trying to surrender, and they have only one place to go with it -- within, which is where all the action is.
Unfortunately, this dynamic is rare, and there are many who go astray on both sides of the equation, as David points out. As soon as the business wanders from where it belongs, within the aspirant, it tends to get squandered in co-dependent relationships, entangling both the aspirant and the teacher. It is very hard to have productive interactions on the nuts and bolts of practices in that situation. The whole thing tends to get lost in the fog of the myth.
Still, it can go right sometimes, and, Dave, you seem to be in that kind of relationship. Bravo for that!
Oh, and thanks David for not mythologizing AYP or me. Now, excuse me while I climb back up on my pedestal. 
But seriously, as you all know, AYP is a work in progress (literally) as a whole and in every application by each person, and there is lots of room for new understandings and improvements. I expect it will always be that way. It is an unending process of unfoldment of self-knowledge for each of us, yes?
Yet, there is a basic structure we all operate within, defined by the very nature of our nervous system, and there are known principles involved which we can utilize for the purpose of spiritual transformation. There are numerous approaches and nuances within that structure, and each journey is unique to the individual. So there is always a lot to talk about...
The guru is in you.
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2006 : 12:48:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alan
a true Guru, in the flesh or not,
You've reminded us that a Guru is not necessarily a person...can be a book, a tree, a stone...anything. What is it inside the seeker that draws out enlightenment from even a stone. Maybe that is the question (which leads to, why does one person have it and another not... is it all pre-scripted since the beginning of time by each individual soul?) Maybe, your inner quest, the inner guru guides you to the outer one. To give my example, I'd never have gone to the teacher I did, had I known about the method. However, some series of coincidences took me there, and something kept me there that long despite my chaffing on an almost daily basis for that long. And then something took me away from there with a certainity, even though I was anxious about leaving. It is said we have no choice in anything once we are born, except to be detached or attached to the outcome. This, if true, can both frustrate and bestow unending tranquility at different times.
Does anyone have an answer to why a soul would choose the script it did at the beginning of its journey? And why did it have choice then? (assuming that 'everything is pre-destined' is true). |
Edited by - sadhak on May 27 2006 09:40:09 AM |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2006 : 04:17:09 AM
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| Well Anthem, maybe it's easy to be wise in theory. One should be able to learn from pain, otherwise it can also confuse the being, and kill the spirit. There has to be that key that converts pain into edible food for the soul. Did that happen Babaly? At least in instalments? |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2006 : 06:09:00 AM
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Dear David,
I cannot be specific as to the location as someone mailed me privately and pointed out the post where you gave your opinion that Yogani was a greater meditation teacher than Paramhansa. Now I think we can all agree that Yogani can explain it to Western English speaking people clearer and that much can be lost in translation from a different language.I am not doubting that Yoganis teachings are clear and concise although by his own admission you don't need theory to progress simply practice is enough.In fact traditionally gurus don't encourage questions because the aim of meditation is to quieten the mind and questions do the opposite to our minds.As Jim says in another post ' Don't learn more. Don't think more. Don't understand more. Just do the practices, and don't aim to block or leap or permit or DO anything. Just sit down and say "I am" a lot. Simple. Period. And let the cosmic barber trim your hair. Less you, please.'
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
Edited by - riptiz on May 27 2006 3:19:59 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2006 : 3:28:39 PM
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Dave,
in that case I can see how someon would think I was mythologizing Yogani.
In the mind of someone in whome Parahamsa is mythologized, giving the opinion that Yogani is more accurate does mythologize Yogani. But I don't agree with the mythologization of Parahamsa in the first place.
I just tried to paint what I believe is a more balanced picture of Parahamsa Y:
quote:
For advice on meditation practice, I'd personally favor Yogani as a Rishi over Paramhansa. The latter is more famous, but the former I believe has a greater quality of teachings, at least on the intellectual level.
That's my opinion. It's not necessarily a very important one in itself, but my main point is that if you find little inconsistencies beteen PYs meditation instruction and Yogani's, you should think twice before automatically choosing PYs because he is more famous, or, shall we say, 'better mythologized', LOL. 
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 27 2006 3:40:44 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2006 : 4:51:04 PM
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Dear David,
Actually Parahamsa is certainly not mythologised in my eyes as I don't know anything about him or about many of the famous gurus as I prefer to practice than read about others practicing.I certainly don't expect realisation by reading about someone else sat in a cave for years on end.We all find our own path and I tell my students this is the way I have been taught, if you decide to do differently by experimenting then you are responsible for the results.That doesn't mean they are wrong if they decide to go another way , just that they take responsibility for their actions and results.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2006 : 6:04:51 PM
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I understand.
Dave said
mailed me privately and pointed out the post where you gave your opinion that Yogani was a greater meditation teacher than Paramhansa.
Yeah, the person who mailed you about that, if they thought it was a big deal, might well have a mythology about Paramhansa. There is certainly one out there.....
From my point of view, I'm just saying, 'Don't assume that the yoga teacher about whom the bigger deal is made, is more accurate'. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2006 : 9:32:26 PM
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I've gone through all of paramahansa yogananda's lessons and started on his kriya lessons. his lessons are more comprehensive as far as describing how the world is put together and how energies flow, and how to live you life and deal with others.
But none of that really helps yoga practices. His meditation techniques take up a lot of time, and become very complicated. There is a listserver where his students communicate, and nobody is experiencing the kind of phenomena people talk about here.
Nothing against Yogananda though. I think everything he did was wonderful, and his organization is good. But the time he was alive had a whole different set of problems people were working on spiritually, and there was less ambient spiritual energy, so he didn't have the opportunity to give us what AYP is giving us.
Ironically, I believe most of the power created by AYP is by Yogani showing us what to take away from all the multitudes of traditional yoga knowledge, and lucky for us, that is most of it! |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2006 : 10:22:49 PM
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quote:
I believe most of the power created by AYP is by Yogani showing us what to take away from all the multitudes of traditional yoga knowledge, and lucky for us, that is most of it!
Very well said Ether. Thank you. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2006 : 05:23:15 AM
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Hi Ether,
And even these lessons are not needed unless one simply wants academic knowledge.Having vast knowledge of scriptures or Yogani's lessons will not raise your levels without practice.So it is more important to be doing than talking about it.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2006 : 09:41:45 AM
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Thanks for your reply, Yogani.
Yogani said:
Oh, and thanks David for not mythologizing AYP or me. Now, excuse me while I climb back up on my pedestal.
LOL!
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2006 : 10:02:56 PM
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Hari Om
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Why are you guys singling out gurus that let you down...
Brilliant!
Every action is by choice, the fruit we gain , we 'earn'. We have freedom over action alone ( or our selections) never over their fruits... so say the sages.
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2006 : 10:29:23 PM
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I didn't agree that that was 'brilliant'. No-one singled out gurus here, rather someone, who had trouble with a guru (whom I expect may have been misbehaving), came here for some help and perspective, thinking it might be a good place to find it.
In any situation that can be called guru-cultic situation, if a person is harmed/wronged by a guru, it is turned back on the disciple, as if to deny or wash over wrongdoing on the part of the guru, and indicate that the disciple has merely failed in perspective, and merely needs to improve in it.
I don't agree with that approach. The approach is in fact often tantamount to a denial of abuse, and therefore the enabling of abuse. The mythologization of the guru is really a major enabler of the abuse. My first line of help is to help them acknowledge that the mythology was incorrect: this person was never what they were promoted to be; a lie was lived. And bad things followed from that.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 29 2006 10:44:07 PM |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2006 : 3:18:21 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~~~~
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
I didn't agree that that was 'brilliant'.
Hello David, your point is duly noted. What I thought was brilliant was Shanti putting the issue into a larger context. I still think it is... value {for me} is all about getting things in perspective. It made me think. It took me from the specific to a macro-issue. The logic and insight of Shanti's warranted recognition.
Does this infer your point is less, or that your opinion is less? Nope
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on May 30 2006 3:19:40 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2006 : 11:07:45 AM
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Well, the language was just ambiguous maybe. Shanti's point is fine, as long as she is not intending to dismiss the rightful process of realizing that a particular kind of deception has occurred.
Sure, eventually, all the tools of spiritual perspective are appropriate for dealing with chela-abuse by a guru, just as any form of abuse. It's just important how these tools are brought in. I think they should be brought in with care not to dismiss the other processes that such a person whould go through. And one of those processes is, as I was saying, recognizing that a particular kind of deception and betrayal occurs in an abuse-by-guru situation.
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2006 : 1:25:23 PM
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Hi Dave,
I personally dont see any mytholization with david wanting to prefer Yogani's teachings to PY's teachings atleast on an intellectual level.
If we see history most famous ppl are not that famous at their times. People recognized their importance only after they left. May be Yogani is one of those biggies, we dont know on what spiritual level he is. We are not in a position to judge who is better between Yogani and PY.
Intellectually and in bringing Yoga to the common man, Yogani's work is definitely the best till now. No doubt in that. Not only PY but lot of other historical spiritual traditions have kept lot of things under hood and their instructions are not so easy to read and follow. There can be faster methods, quicker paths but when these techniques need to be kept open and taken to the layman, there will be some compromise that needs to be made on efficiency. On the least I can take AYP to be a set of inspirational readings that can get me started on spiritual path. Nothing else can get us started so quickly am sure. I find it very efficient too. For me it is the quickest path.
Coming to idolizing one's guru it depends on the experiences we have with our guru, good or bad. People cannot be cheated for long. At the same time I have learnt from this forum and david's posts specifically why expecting perfection is bad. It is really a good thing to keep in mind, not expecting perfection in our guru. Helps us spiritually a lot in keeping our faith despite some minor shortcomings of guru. As long as faith is there, the connection is strong and we will continue to have benifit from teachings.
-Near |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2006 : 2:54:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
traditionally gurus don't encourage questions because the aim of meditation is to quieten the mind and questions do the opposite to our minds.
I'm not sure the problem is the noise level of the mind. The issue is whether you IDENTIFY with your mind (regardless of how noisy it is). And discussing/analyzing/intellectualizing the spiritual path strengthens that bond of identification...and brings it into our practices.
AYP is skillfully written to keep things simple. When we try to "fill in details", we go the wrong way.
I find that as I meditate and melt, a tinny patter of narrative thought continues most of the time, like an AM radio droning in the background. Sometimes my mind can even flare up into big noisy thoughts. Fine. I just don't identify with it. I don't aim to stop it (after wasting 20 years trying to do so). I just let it be, like allowing clouds to drift across the sky.
Let it be. Don't fix stuff. Stop trying. Come as you are. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 31 2006 2:55:42 PM |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2006 : 8:29:46 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~~~
Hello David, Jim, Shanti, Ether, Alan, et.al,
Can you advise if anyone has/had a guru/sisya relationship? and if anyone is speaking from personal experience during this thread?
thx
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2006 : 9:44:37 PM
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Hi Frank
Up to this point in my life I haven't had a physical Guru/disciple relationship.
Half of the stuff that I talk out of my *** is second-hand knowledge, and the other half is just my own ****
In my "un-initiated opinion" though I do believe that my Guru is the only grace sent forth from God to revive me from delusion and is ever waiting for me to open to Guru's divine guidance.
I'm willing to carry on a Guru/sisya relationship without flesh presence until Guru is revealed to me in any form.
Peace, alan |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 04:13:07 AM
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I could speak of personal experiences from a guru/disciple relationship.
But the guru/leader was very detached from me, meaning the actual
face to face experiences were very seldom.
The guru was idolised (by me, by the group) and I personally
had more a relationship with the guru's teaching than with the guru himself.
So from this viewpoint I could share many things, but I don't want
to start a guru-bashing session ...
but I am willing to share whatever is of interest.
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 10:30:03 AM
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My relationship over the past few years with Sri Karunamayi could be considered a Guru/sisya relationship. But she always says "I don't come as your Guru, I come as your Mother". And that is who she is to me, my spiritual Mother. She is so sweet and divine, yet so thunderously powerful underneath her little form I am blessed!
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 11:32:05 AM
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The guru is a personification of unity/god/the flow/silence. For some people, it's helpful to have a "local" version of all that. The pitfall is getting stuck on the local version and never jumping to the universality of it all (or, per this discussion title, having your local personification grab at the wordly perquisites of deity-hood). But the thought is that it's easier to surrender in two small jumps (to local guru, then eventually to the universal) than in one. I'm more of a one big jumper, I think.
It's sort of like driving an automatic car that drives itself, but you are, insanely, sitting at the wheel, very tense, very worried, very stressed, certain you're driving the damned thing (feeling bad about wrong turns taken and rear view mirrors accidentally knocked off, and feeling proud when you're really whipping around corners slickly and making good time). Getting a guru is like hiring a chauffeur to take over "driving" duties. You learn the valuable lesson that you don't have to drive, but you still haven't figured it all out (but at least you can relax and get to work on figuring out the rest). The chauffeurs - even the bad evil ones - mostly all understand the truth behind it all. But sometimes they get caught in the same delusion and revel in the driving, and stop the car to buy blow and hookers. |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 1:16:39 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~~~
quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
The pitfall is getting stuck on the local version and never jumping to the universality of it all (
Jim I see your point, with the right guru ( and there are many types), it is by their grace that one goes from the local to the universal. Now, as I undertand it, and been taught, it is HIS/HER grace that is being offered. So, there is no 'local guru' from the standpoint of 'i' but is "I", then universal acting through the guru in the flesh , if you allow me to use that appoach... If there is any guru's that go wrong, its this fundamental issue that they think thet are something other then the messenger.
Its Brahman working through them that is their delight for the Brahma-rishi. For this one, we are fortunate to have the relationship with, the INFINITE found in the physical. I am in hope of this realtionship again!
'no one loves any-one, all love is directed to the SELF' - Upanishads
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Jun 01 2006 1:17:54 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 2:31:25 PM
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Hi Frank,
Guruji is still in San Francisco if anyone wishes to find out face to face and experience rather than use hearsay.Yes, the guru is only here to help you meet God and it is by their grace.I beleive he also returns to Santa Monica shortly to give shaktipat.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Gurus Gone Wrong
