|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 12:12:51 AM
|
Hi everyone -- first post here, I'm excited to be a part of the community.
I have been practicing AYP Deep Meditation and Spinal Breathing Pranayama for about 2.5 months now. I am waiting a bit before I add any Asanas, but I do have the book.
Just FYI, I have never had any visions or other big experiences during my practices, however my most significant moment came about a month ago when I seemed to cease all thought for a bit....no thoughts or logical memories of the experience, just a sort of "feeling memory" of the event that I didn't really recognize until after it was over.
Anyway, to my point: lately I have been having an odd experience during deep meditation. It doesn't happen every time, but it happens enough for me to be curious about it. Sometimes, between 5 and 15 minutes into meditation I start to feel "different" and then I feel like I enter a new "tier" of thought (I don't know how else to explain). This new "tier" lasts for the remainder of my sessions. During this experience, repeating the mantra becomes difficult to maintain, and my thoughts feel very fleeting. My mind is much calmer and I almost feel like my thoughts come and go with ease -- they're very fleeting and I overall feel very relaxed and calm.
The problem is, I'm not sure what this would be called, and I'm not sure what I should do because it is no longer easy to come back to the mantra in this state. Does anyone have any similar experience or insight? THANKS!!
Another quick question while I'm here: I very frequently find myself repeating the mantra WHILE having thoughts. It can become very difficult to simply "favor" the mantra during these thought streams, but sometimes it can go on for an entire session or even several sessions in a row. What do I do when my brain seems to be able to repeat the mantra consistently WHILE having "engaging" thought streams? THANKS AGAIN!! |
|
|
SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 01:38:22 AM
|
Dear Burgo,
Welcome To the AYP Community. Sounds like you are doing just great. It is totally ok to find yourself repeating the mantra and yet having thoughts at the same time - just gently switch your focus from the thoughts to the mantra when you notice the thoughts. In instances when you find it difficult to come back to the mantra - that is ok too. Simple Observe those thought streams without engaging in them (do not get caught up in the story they are telling) ; let them have their "say" so to speak, then come back to the mantra. Most times, just observing those thoughts will quickly make them flee.
Enjoy your practices and good luck
Sey |
 |
|
|
Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 1:20:09 PM
|
| Thanks for the reply SeySorciere. I appreciate any and all help/insight. I wonder if anyone has experienced anything like the transition to another "tier" of thought? |
|
|
|
Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 2:06:37 PM
|
Greetings Bourgo,
I like the word "tier" as a description of the matrix that is being unwound in meditation. I can fully relate to transitioning from one tier to the next.
Example: Sometimes, the meditation begins with uttering the mantra mentally, and then there are thought-steams related to the day's activities popping up. Then, at some point, maybe I "black out"--unable to remember or comprehend the images, internal dialogues, or other mirages that appear. Yet, there is some knowing that something is there. Then, maybe at some point, my awareness notices the sound of a bird outside, or that the light has changed in the room (through closed eyelids). Or maybe, at some point, I begin to hear inner sounds (like some tribal beats or amazing sound effects that seemingly come from nowhere).
What I have learned after 1.5 years of daily deep meditation is: that the tiers are unpredictable, and therefore I expect nothing in particular. Remember, if you only repeat the mantra once in your mind, and you get lost in a strong tier of phenomenon (inner or outer) for the rest of the meditation, that is still okay. It's not about how many times you can repeat the mantra; it's about easily favoring the mantra when you can. It's not easily favoring if you keep wrestling with thought-streams or expecting an uninterrupted repetition of the mantra. To paraphrase Yogani: losing the mantra is the name of the game. So, let yourself get lost as you abide more and more in inner stillness.
It gets easier and easier to surrender to this process of refining a sound in the mind. Pure awareness is sweeping through our tiers and removing the cobwebs with the help of a basic sound.
Sounds like you're off to a great start. Glad you're here!  |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 2:47:41 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
To paraphrase Yogani: losing the mantra is the name of the game. So, let yourself get lost as you abide more and more in inner stillness.
 I can see the rise of the next question already " oh no I don't seem to be losing the Mantra what should I do? 
It's amazing that such a simple instruction gets blown into an epic of complexity which competes with the physics of a Super massive black hole for assumptions and unanswered questions. We all do it like lemmings off a cliff. I reckon Yogani made it too simple, there should have been some multi layered quantum mechanical mathematic formula and an instruction set resembling the human genome, then we could all accept it because trying to figure it out would be too difficult.
Anyway, for Bourgo. The usual applies....anytime you notice you are off he mantra, then gently pick up the mantra again. That's it, nothing more needs adding. It doesn't matter if you are communing with space pixies, going up into tiers of consciousness, locked in thought streams, hearing music repeating like a jiggered jukebox, going to sleep, shaking like jelly or any other weird stuff......just gently pick up the mantra when you notice you are off it.
|
|
|
|
maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 2:53:28 PM
|
quote:
I can see the rise of the next question already " oh no I don't seem to be losing the Mantra what should I do?
hilarious...will start a new thread with that question |
|
|
|
Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 7:44:50 PM
|
Karl, will you introduce me to the space pixies? I'm a little lonely here. LOL.
Karl hits it on the head. However, my directive/suggestion was not to actively "lose" the mantra. The favoring of the mantra when we realize we're off it is a process of non-regulation that allows the mind to be comfortable with losing the mantra. It's a pitfall to cling to the mantra forcefully (which it sounds like Bourgo may be trying to do), so I think it's worthwhile to mention this finer point of DM mechanics. |
|
|
|
Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 8:20:42 PM
|
| P.S. It's also a pitfall to try to separate the mantra from thought-streams. The mantra can intermingle with thought-streams. Also an important finer point. |
|
|
|
Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 9:04:45 PM
|
Yea, Bodhi Tree is somewhat correct......I have been "clinging" to the mantra. I have done quite a bit of reading since joining the forums and realize that this is "clunky" meditation as Yogani would call it. Simply reading the books with no other conversation/instruction can leave you with some ambiguous or seemingly over-simplified descriptions of some pretty significant techniques and experiences.
At any rate, I have been too "clunky" and robotic with my meditations and I am now trying to change that a bit.
And to Karl: I am actually a Molecular Biologist with a Ph.D. in Genetics, so I would love the Human Genome analogy ;-)
Thanks all for the wonderful replies. I am very glad to be here. |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2012 : 07:11:09 AM
|
Bodhi I will send you some space pixies and fairy dust on the next synchronous meditation.
Bourgo - Yogani will have to write a super complex instruction set for molecular biologists and quantum physicists.
No, don't try and change anything, the clunky phase is just part of it. Anytime you think......I'm doing this in a clunky way.........I'm doing this in a mechanical fashion.....or anything else, then easily pick up the mantra again.
Whenever you are thinking ....ANYTHING......other than the easy repetition of the Mantra, then pick up the Mantra again.
It doesn't matter how the Mantra is pronounced, it can be mechanical and harsh like a machine gun, or ethereal and hardly noticeable like a wisp of cloud. There isn't a right way. It's the idea that there is a right way which should gently make way for the gentle picking up of the Mantra in whatever fashion it's repeating.
Even if you are lost in awareness for the whole session, when you come to notice the Mantra is missing it is the thought" I haven't been doing the Mantra, I must have been asleep etc" does that make sense? The loss of the Mantra is not important, neither is the goal to lose the Mantra......there is no goal except to gently pick up the Mantra at anytime you notice you are doing some other thing.
Because your nature is to look for detail, you are looking for the correct process, it's hard to understand that the broad spread of experiences are just thoughts, eventually you will see those thoughts as the objects they really are. They are just like the objects you see around you.
It will click into place, don't look to push it to fit an ideal, it will just click into place when the time is right. The clunky phase isn't a mistake, it's a necessity and I think of it now as a thing of great beauty like the first buds of spring. It is the beginning of acceptance and surrender.
|
Edited by - karl on Mar 17 2012 07:19:40 AM |
|
|
|
Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2012 : 08:54:29 AM
|
Wow....
Thanks Karl. That last line was inspirational.
So, just to clarify, if I notice I am not thinking the mantra, the ultimate goal is to be able to simply pick up the mantra again as an easy "reflex" of sorts? If I actually think to myself "oh crap I wasn't saying the mantra, I had better start again....", that would be less optimal, correct?
I hesitate to say "optimal", because I don't want to give the impression that I am going to try to change things (because you said they should just naturally evolve), but it seems like my practice should eventually get to the point where it is a natural reflex and not a conscious decision, right?
P.S. Sometimes when I go to pick up the mantra again after losing it, it seems as though I could pick it up as a sort of light n' fuzzy intonation as opposed to the very clear and present intonation that I started with. I know that I should always pick it up as refined as possible, but sometimes if I try to pick it up in its most refined state, it sort of feels like I am making a conscious decision to do so....thus it seems like I am forcing the mantra to be more refined than it should be....what do I do about that?
|
Edited by - Bourgo on Mar 17 2012 08:59:32 AM |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2012 : 09:43:55 AM
|
You should forget goals. I think mention of them makes people try to hit a mark that really isn't there.
You notice the thoughts coming up " it should be fuzzy, yes it's fuzzy that's good, I'm making a conscious decision to make it fuzzy, damn it should be a reflex etc etc".
See, they are all thoughts......and you are OFF the mantra. It's a struggle to see that at first. When you are truly unaware and time seems to pass, then until you have the thought "time has passed and I was unaware" then you just were not aware of anything until you had that thought. Then maybe the thought comes " oh yes that was the goal I did it, I lost the Mantra, congratulations all round". All are thoughts.
So, anytime you are off the Mantra because you ate thinking these thoughts then just gently rest you awareness back on the Mantra. It might be very fleeting before a thought comes like " I'm a consciously saying the Mantra because I'm not sure that's right" or some variation......then just put your awareness back onto the Mantra HOWEVER IT IS.
Sometimes a thought or sensation comes more strongly and the temptation is to fight to get the Mantra, or the thoughts seem to be in parallel. It doesn't matter, you can investigate the other thoughts if necessary then gently back to the Mantra, then if the thought persists stay with that for a while and gently ease back. You can continue doing that, no rush no need to force or bully it's a gentle natural action.
You see you will then get the thought " oh I'm forcing, it should be natural " see how you have left the mantra to catch another thought? So, then, back gently to the mantra.
It's like polishing a pebble, back and forwards is the process by which the sharp edges are worn down. If you are doing it, then you are doing it, the only real decision was to make time to do those 20 minutes. So relax and let it happen. |
|
|
|
Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2012 : 2:36:35 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bourgo
I hesitate to say "optimal", because I don't want to give the impression that I am going to try to change things (because you said they should just naturally evolve), but it seems like my practice should eventually get to the point where it is a natural reflex and not a conscious decision, right?
Natural reflex = conscious decision... (the two are synonymous, in my opinion)
Today I made a conscious decision to easily favor the mantra based on the natural reflex of my mind to bring itself to stillness. |
|
|
|
SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 01:08:06 AM
|
Is it me or is Karl getting to be quite the poet??
Sey |
|
|
|
Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 07:25:32 AM
|
Thank you very much Karl.
And to Bodhi Tree, I respectfully disagree. Natural reflex does not equal a conscious decision. When I sneeze, I close my eyes as a natural reflex...I didn't have to think about it. When a doctor hits my knee with his little hammer my foot jerks reflexively, I didn't have to make an effort. When someone tries to hit me I flinch without thinking.
Experiments have been done on reflexes like this, and oddly enough our brain sends two lines of signaling: first, it sends a signal to our body to react according to the stimulus...secondly, it sends a signal to our "consciousness" telling us what is happening. The point? We react to things before we actually know what is happening. It really makes you question the idea of "free will" but that is another discussion. Basically, natural reflex and conscious decision are completely separate neurological processes. |
|
|
|
Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 6:46:56 PM
|
Bravo, Bourgo! I believe that using language precisely is a gift of discernment, and you clearly have a handle on the impulses and movements of the brain and body, so whatever definitions work for you is what matters.
Interestingly enough, I went to the doctor last week, and he was unable to make my knee jerk when he struck it with his little hammer. I've been able to control those kind of typical reflexive responses since I was young (for example, being able to remain still while being tickled). I use consciousness to disregard the normal reflexive impulses sent by the brain. It's kind of an athlete thing too--if you closely analyze champion-level boxers, you notice that their face muscles don't twitch when the fists are flying at them. Also, I believe there's evidence that yogis can alter autonomic processes traditionally regarded as being beyond conscious control (the heart beat, for instance).
But as the Ghost Busters so wisely warned: "Don't cross the streams!" That can be dangerous.
Neurology's relationship to consciousness is fascinating, and I think it's awesome that this is being more fully explored by scientists.
Wishing you tidings of comfort and joy. |
|
|
|
ddaniel
USA
15 Posts |
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 05:58:59 AM
|
| Just talking to my wife about that very experiment last night. Mention of unfolding, none dualism and I. |
|
|
|
Bourgo
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 08:29:03 AM
|
More in-depth look at the research reported on in ddaniel's video post: http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110...477023a.html
I think the actual article is pretty poorly thought-out... mainly some of the ridiculous assumptions about the interconnectedness of the body and potential soul, but the report on the research is good. They argue that if neuroscience can demonstrate a distinct disconnect between our conscious awareness and neurological decision-making, that it would somehow destroy the argument for a "soul" that allows freedom of will and choice biologically. I think that is a ridiculous statement. If anything, to me, the finding that we are "receiving" information to our consciousness verifies that we are more complex than simple biology....
|
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
New tier of thought during meditation?
