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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 18 2012 : 06:51:04 AM
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I think you have to be exhausted enough not to care what works, or what doesn't.
Up to that point the mind still seeks control even if it isn't obvious.
Carrying on beyond the point of gain is exactly what the doctor ordered.
I always liked the idea in the Alchemist book that the closer to the goal, the harder the challenge, until the challenges became so great you lose everything of value, almost to your life. It's when you finally have nothing eft to give, gone beyond, that the goal is reached.
In the book that is a final goal, but it's just another stage within spiritual progress.
It would be good for you to read another book by Herman Hess called Siidhartha, on which the alchemist is based. It describes the process of win-lose-win-lose and utter defeat. Great inspiration.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2012 : 07:02:01 AM
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Hi TNTN,
quote:
Bravo Christi, and thank you for contributing. You are adept at this type of talk and you got right to the point.
Frankly, I don't know how to do it. I don't have anything left to give. And I've tried the opposite too .
I'm tired, like I've been running a marathon for 9 years.
Thanks for the honest reply. I'll be really honest with you... you won't ever know how to do it.
That's the whole thing. The practices bring us to a point where we realize that trying to figure it all out is futile, and we give up. At the moment of giving up, we rest in the lap of the divine. You think you are going to die, but actually you truly live, for the first time.
Around every moment of despair is an ocean of silent bliss. It's just that normally, we don't notice it. So our practice becomes a very simple practice of letting go, letting go of the mind stuff and resting in peace. It's a simple shift of attention. It's not so difficult really once enough purification has happened.
If you don't have anything more to give, then that is a really good moment to give up.  Then you can form a strong foundation in stillness, and silence, and joy, and let that be your sharing.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2012 : 07:06:02 AM
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Hi Maheswari,
quote:
excellent quote by this great master ...is he zen buddhist?
No, he was a Roman Catholic priest.
Only kidding.  Yes, he was a Zen Buddhist. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2012 : 09:34:23 AM
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Hi TTN,
You have got such wonderful replies already, so won't give another one right now... Maybe if something flows to write later, I will....
Just want to add to the sentiments shared here with something Yogani had said to me once when I felt I could not keep going, I felt defeated... Yogani said, "feeling defeated is not a bad thing. You know what comes after defeat? Surrender."
Would like to share a song with you....
Jason Mraz - I Won't Give Up
http://youtu.be/O1-4u9W-bns
And just like them old stars
I see that you've come so far
To be right where you are
How old is your soul?
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2012 : 11:32:48 AM
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quote:
No, he was a Roman Catholic priest.
Only kidding. Yes, he was a Zen Buddhist.
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2012 : 3:17:04 PM
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Thank you everyone for contributing.
emc, you and I really seem to have a similar path. The stakes definitely get raised! I especially have a tendency to cut myself are bump a bone really hard when I get in a foul mood. It gets pretty spooky sometimes ;) .
karl, I really like Siddhartha... maybe it's time to read it again. Kind of like how emc said, I totally agree with the "closer to the goal, harder it gets" sentiment.
And Christi, why doesn't the giving up get any easier! ;) It's crazy because no matter how many times I have surrendered on this path, I never know how to do it when it's time.
Shanti, yes I am defeated. And I hope that I can find surrender. Thanks for sharing those words.
Thanks also, to everyone this is a great discussion and it's helping me a lot. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2012 : 4:38:43 PM
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Hi TNTN,
quote:
And Christi, why doesn't the giving up get any easier! ;) It's crazy because no matter how many times I have surrendered on this path, I never know how to do it when it's time.
Concentrate on bringing the energy into your heart. The heart and the crown are really the two centres of surrender in the body, but I can't advise you to bring the energy to the crown as it is too dangerous. But living from the heart is a constant process of giving, not necessarily through actions (although it may express externally that way), but simply through being itself. Giving and giving up, are very similar things, they both involve surrender. And the more evolved version of these two things is love, which involves the complete surrender of the concept of separation.
So trust that as the heart opens more and more, everything will be taken care of. And of course, the crown is there when you are ready.
Christi |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2012 : 05:15:46 AM
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Hi tonight is the night.
Please, maybe this option can help.Here you can awake from "the false i" and find huge relief :
http://liberationunleashed.com/
Click "enter the gate" and liberate your self from ilusion and suffering if you want. You just have to LOOK that theres no you at all and you get liberated from ilusion and very much suffering.Its pretty easy.Only the mind complicates everything.You have nothing to lose |
Edited by - miguel on Feb 20 2012 05:31:01 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2012 : 10:36:31 AM
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| miguel, very interesting site! Have you done a one-to-one? Is it possible to read it, if so? And - do they take any consideration at all to the energetic side of liberation? |
Edited by - emc on Feb 20 2012 10:38:34 AM |
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vijikr
United Arab Emirates
413 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2012 : 10:57:55 AM
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Hi Miguel Good to see you after long time.Wonderful replies and reading it makes me feel great esply Yogani's reply. I am grateful to be here.
This sucidal tendencies made me remind of one incident with a Guru which is told by him got no idea how far it is true but here it goes as I recollect..
There was a small boy around 10yrs old who was raised in America by his parents and they came to india to meet this particular guru to get his blessing and healing for the boy as he was special child(mentally retarded).When he was given healing he just looked at the Guru and told him to stop whatever he was doing to heal as he said he chose such a lifestyle and such a parent who would pamper him all life long and he loves it as he chose this lifestyle willfully.He also told that in his previous life he didnt get such caring,attention or love from anyone as his life was just a ratrace.
Amen bodhi tree!
Just a thought.....
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2012 : 6:41:47 PM
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Hi emc,this is my one to one (last december)
http://liberationunleashed.com/nati...hp?f=5&t=225
Note: after awakening theres a falling period of the false i structure.When you directly SEE that theres no such thing as an "i" in any way, shape or form and that you dont exist as a separate entity all the egotic system is affected. It can be more or less intense. It depends on the person. Pretty intense here and now getting more stable (and free!) after 2 months.Many things were removed. The process continues cz "the real" awakening starts and unfolds after this initial and basic act of seeing the truth (called in adyashantis book partial awakening cz theres so much identification to burn after seeing the false "i" directly).But theres only one basic awakening that is the ordinary act (yes. Pretty ordinary here) of seeing trought the ilusion of a separate entity directly (not conceptual knowledge). They use a direct self inquiry method that is definitely and truly effective to awake.Its like a sword.
Note: If you decide to go for it is 100% your decision and responsability (like i did). I only give all the information and possible risks and how the process unfolds confirmed by my direct experience. The process continues here after the initial tsunami.Getting more stable and much less intense and great freedom unfolding everyday as i continue the inquiry to help the process (self inquiry is like a laser beam now. Getting rid from my personal story and suffering and much things falling down) trought all the day. On how the falling period will affect u is unpredictable and depends on the person.For some persons it was not so intense.
I dont use to recomend it due to possible risks but i felt the impulse to do it in the case of tonight is the night...if people ask me for it i answer cz the site is there and is helping many people also after all...like me. |
Edited by - miguel on Feb 20 2012 7:28:53 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2012 : 01:56:32 AM
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| Thanks miguel! Beautiful! I can sense the stillness through your post! Very wise to recognize the years of integration needed afterwards! Thanks for presenting the site. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2012 : 06:01:17 AM
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AMEN !
What an inspiring thread. I very rarely have suicidal thoughts but I very often long for death - I don't know where I get this sense of it - but I think death is liberating and life after death must be a great adventure and I can't wait to get started on this adventure. But then I am the type of person who is always impatiently waiting for the future, what's round the corner, instead of enjoying the Now.
Sey |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2012 : 06:05:51 AM
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| Youre wellcome emc. Yes, this have been a brutal discovery here (Theres only life happening. Theres no such thing as a doer- "i","self" is just a thought happening in the real Me) and its true that awakening really starts after seeing trought the veil of false identity. There are many traps along the way and the enlightened "i" can arise easily for example (among others)...self inquiry tool is the main practice here now in daily life and its effects are definitely powerful now. |
Edited by - miguel on Feb 21 2012 06:22:05 AM |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2012 : 12:41:36 PM
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| Thanks for posting Miguel :) |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2012 : 1:51:02 PM
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Love u brother.
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Edited by - miguel on Feb 21 2012 1:52:22 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2012 : 11:42:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by miguel
Note: after awakening theres a falling period of the false i structure.When you directly SEE that theres no such thing as an "i" in any way, shape or form and that you dont exist as a separate entity all the egotic system is affected.
No "I" in any way, shape, or form?...Yikes! Somebody call the paramedics and the psychiatric ward too because I seem to be operating out of this body and mind that must be getting in the way of the One and Only True Reality of Non-Duality. Or perhaps there's an ego squad that specializes in assassinating egos? If so, someone give them a call so they can storm in at night and take me out! I'm clearly in desperate need of ego removal. Perhaps the Ego Busters, who have proton packs and a trap that vacuum seals all the un-awakened egos in a compartment, forever eliminating those pesky illusions?
All joking aside, I've dug into the archives and found a splendid post from Mr. Yogani that kind of strikes the heart of this matter:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=2477#21047
"Interestingly, hardcore forms of self inquiry involve a complete denial of manifest existence, which is non-duality built on separation. Ironic, isn't it?
Case in point: Nisargatta's talks shortly before his death read like little more than rationalizations -- mental gymnastics:
"I am dying, but nothing is here so I don't care."
Is pure self inquiry pure rationalization without engagement of any kind? It seems cold and loveless, doesn't it? The witness is about more than that. Stillness is always longing to move as outpouring divine love. Otherwise, absolutely nothing would be here. In our essential nature, we are that also. Can true enlightenment be based on denial? When does denial cease to be a mind game?,
None of this is to deny the non-dual (unified) nature of existence, or the role of self inquiry on the path. But it has to be real, not only for the sage, but for the aspirant, and consistent with the rest of yoga. Otherwise, it doesn't hold up."
Just wanted to extend my heartfelt words of caution to anyone trying to annihilate their ego. The proprietor of this AYP website (Yogani) seems to suggest that ego annihilation is not a necessary component of the enlightenment process. Transformation, yes, but not a complete removal.
But, to each his own! Whatever works. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2012 : 08:24:19 AM
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Hi bodi tree and sorry tonight is the night cz this is your treath and this is alittle invasive:
Its not a matter of killing the ego. It just seeing trough the veil of ilusion and realize that you as an "i" are just a tought. As well with all the ego structure. Just toughts and more toughts that creates the ilusion of an "i". Im not talking about intelectual knowledge. Im talking about direct experience. Only a few seconds to realize the truth about "our selves".
The ilusion will continue and will never dissappear. But it is not believed anymore as a real thing. You just remove the basic identification that sustains all the ilusory structure. The ilusion that you are an "i" thought and the identification with that "i" thought.
There is no way to the only One and true reality really. All that is just here, now, and the moment you start seeking it you lose it.
Duality still exist, and its a good thing. It is a manifestation of the Oneness. It doesnt mean that you avoid life and duality.No. You life your life and enjoy reality much more from this liberated "perspective".
For me this is the end of the stories, the drama and now life is much more easy and funny. And the pain is there also cz its impossible to avoid it. Now my life is seen as a movie and i fully engage in it but more freely than ever before.And this is why i offered this to tonight is the night as a good alternative.
I have been an great addict of my hostories and dramas. Well, now there are no stories and dramas anymore.And it feels sooo good believe me. Now "i" am not as important as was before to my self. The "i" is a little "being" wanting more attention now but it has less and less importance...
So this is not a "killing the ego" thing. This is living with your ego beside you but now it doesnt rules your life cz you have discovered the ilusory nature of it.
Theres a lot of identification after the awakening here yet due to conditioning. The house is inflames here and all the identification (and part of the structure, the parts that are no longer necesary) starts to lose its power.
And it doesnt mean that you dont identificate with tha false anymore. This is an ilusion also cz the "great sages" like ramakrishna or nisargadatta had their moments of identification also. We live in this planet and this human experience. Identification, pain,joy,anger and love are part of the game and the sages experience it also. But the realize that theres nobody there living that emotions.And that is freedom.
The enligtenment process is part of the dream also. It exist as an ilusion and its not good or bad thing. It is just a part of the game. But theres a point where you realize that enlightenment and awakening are just thoughts and they dont exist at all. There is no way or road to enlightenment. Theres a point when you have to throw it all away cz it takes you way from this moment. Here and now.All is already here . You have nothing that you lack or remove. All is perfect now. All is already here.
Theres a point in the "road to enlightenment" when you have to throw all this thoughts to the fire cz they block you. And this doesnt mean that you have to stop the search. No. The ilusory search is necesary also cz it has its useful purpose also.All as its purpose.All is sacred. Ilusion is a sacred thing also. But tehres a point when "a shift" is necesary. Things like "road to enlightenment","enlightenment","awakening" must dissapear.Its amazing to see how much false believes do we have about "enlightenment", "awakening" and the "elightened ones" like ramakrishna.All this is much more easy an ordinary that we usually think. Theres lot of idealization and this beings are pretty ordinary beings. Just like everybody else.
Maybe it sounds like paradox. But paradox is one of the qualities of Reality.
Theres no enlightenment at all cz theres nobody there that can be enlightened at all. All we are already enlightened. Cleansing the window of the ilusory filter is a better way to explain it. And you can choose wathever practices you want for this like self inquiry. And finally theres no filter and nobody cleansing the window but the Consioussness itself playing to "sleep" and "awake".
Maybe it seems that this topic is out of the treath but i think its closely related cz identification with the ilusion is the root of very much suffering in human beings. And i understand tonight is the night attitude cz identification and personal stories were a big cause of suffering here that made "my" life very difficult.
And i agree that this is a hardcore aproach to awakening or enlightenment but i chose it cz i really wanted see trought the veil of this ilusory character.Doesnt matter how.This was a presonal decision.
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Edited by - miguel on Feb 24 2012 08:54:21 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2012 : 10:38:29 AM
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Greetings Miguel,
Glad to hear you have a sense of relief from the overbearing qualities of your personal internal stories and dramas. I can fully relate to that sense of relief and join you in celebrating the dawn of the witness.
Wishing you more and more inner discoveries and a continually expansive view (as well as participation) in this magical reality of life:
Namaste. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2012 : 1:15:09 PM
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[img]icon_heart.gif[/img] [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] [img]icon_heart.gif[/img]
Thank you! Yes participation, of course! Always happening here
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warlock
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 09:57:24 AM
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| My belief is that if we are alive... there is purpose. God wants us to learn and grow. The universe is loving and there is no fear. Premature crown openings can be dealt with in the NOW. You are still alive and capable of action. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 6:03:12 PM
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no doubt you are right that if we are alive, we must have a purpose, warlock.
although i must say that, with premature crown openings, it makes you wonder about how the universe really operates. they are anything but compassionate experiences and can be the very definition of hell.
i know i'm a marginal case, but there was (and may yet be) a very real possibility of insanity and/or a trainwreck. if that happened, would i be doomed to another premature crown opening in the next life? i would say from my experience that path is a knife's edge... very dangerous indeed. what percentage of people could travel that path in all honesty? |
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bmagnum
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 8:59:02 PM
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Suicide my be a taboo for a lot of religions since life is what we perceive as gift/ a blessing that was bestowed upon us the day we were born.
By willfully deciding ending your life, you will be depriving yourself of the beauty that is still yet to come and the learning and experiences that you have yet to discover. I do hope that you will think through this very rationally because it will be a decision that will not only affect you but also the people around you. Life has many beauties so why not wait and how it will unfold for you |
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suicide?
