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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 03:10:50 AM
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What are everyone's thoughts on suicide?
Is this a valid option for yoga practioneers? Or is it verboten?
I've seen it said on the forum that those with a premature crown awakening may be doomed to another premature crown awakening in the next life if they kill themselves.
Admittedly, I have been considering this as an option recently, however I have a lucid mind and would never do anything rashly. It hasn't been something I've considered in the past but I don't feel like I have any better choices at this point. If I did choose this path I would like to do so with full knowledge and intent. I would plan it out and make sure that I did as little harm as possible.
Would just like to hear the communities thoughts on the matter (non judgmental please).
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 03:36:07 AM
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Hi Dear,
in my opinion Life is about learning, and willfully ending one's life
is missing the opportunity to learn.
I understand that in the deeps of depression, one does not see the opportunity
and does not see any purpose for living on. And my intention is not to
judge anybody for ending his/her life, it is just a pity that he/she did not
manage to master the challenge of life. And believe me - I have been in the
pits myself.
In my opinion, the only situation for "useful" suicide is a health condition
that is uncurable in old age when the body would only artificially be kept
alive. In such a situation I would agree to end one's life. But then, may be
we can not call this a suicide (definition of words: mercy killing)
What I disagree, is the concept: "If you kill yourself you are doomed to hell".
Such a concept is not leading to liberation.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 03:52:14 AM
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Tough question. Definitely not forbidden but circumstance dependent. I wouldn't like to say what those circumstances are because each situation would be unique.
It's easy to say assisted suicide is right for someone terminally I'll and suffering, it might be that they simply feel guilty of being a burden, or incredibly angry and want to prove something. In that case is it right? If they could live and learn a bit longer and know they can manage it, then it would be wrong.
I think if you are spiritually aware then often you know yourself well enough to make that choice. I'm sure not everyone has that faculty and some kill themselves over losing money etc. Again, not verboten, but they have not learned anything.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 04:12:39 AM
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Thanks for bringing this subject up!
I haven't got a clue of what's true about the path of the soul if we commit suicide. I've heard we have to come back anyway and go through our stuff, so we just prolong the process of confronting our pain.
What I have discovered in myself, though, is that when i put a "tabu" on it and think it's forbidden or would be a bad thing in any way, it causes stress in me.
I have always enjoyed to have the option. I noticed, though, how I have gotten more and more entagled in the spiritual incarnation mindset, and started thinking how I'm doomed to get back in more lives then anyway, and that created another layer of "no, you can't commit suicide - it's no point", and that started to put me in a locked up cage of mental pressure again.
One night I lay in my bed and just gave up. I surrendered to this enormously strong urge and wish to die. And I was AMAZED by the energetic release I got! The whole body was flooded with bliss, the moment I could ALLOW myself to feel exactly what I was feeling and just give the sh*t about whether it's right or wrong to commit suicide. And then it was much lighter to continue living the daily life. Knowing it's perfectly ok to commit suicide, no judgements, no knowing of the consequences, just having the option there again, clear and clean. 
Holding death in one hand creates such joy in living! What will happen today? I haven't got a clue. I might die in a surprising way!? So I wait, and see what today has to offer. And I have found out I seem to want to see what tomorrow has to offer too, since the hard core truth is: I haven't committed suicide yet.
Adyashanti has a wonderful clip where someone in the audience comes up and talks about wanting to die. And he offers to kill him right there and then and starts to strangle him. The man fights back of course, and then they can start talking about what that's all about. I'll paste it here when I find it!  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 05:00:06 AM
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Following emc's thread above...here's a pretty solid talk from Adyashanti speaking about suicide:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZi79mv0r00
Here's a good self-inquiry question he asks (of course, let's remember the importance of resting upon inner silence as the foundation of the inquiry): "What is it in me that wants to die?"
It is our identification with pain that wants to die. It is our identification with self-despair and hopelessness that wants to die. And once that identification starts dying, then arises the freedom of knowingness. Knowing (without a need for proof) that we are resting upon the eternal spirit of stillness, which is innocent in the way It manifests life.
That is what is so devastating and yet simultaneously liberating--the wonderful possibility that God might actually be innocent and un-controlling--allowing life to arise as it wishes. Many theologians will say otherwise. They will say God is a master, a king, a magician that is administering justice with a divine plan. But I think and experience otherwise. I experience that God, is indeed, like a curious and wandering child--completely open to a playground of potential, with no agenda or absolute motives.
So, suicide? It's crossed my mind. But what crosses my mind far more often is this question: how can I dive more deeply into this mystery of life, which--although definitely painful--has given such miraculous gifts for us to behold and explore as we please.
To quote a pop song by Coldplay: "The future's for discovering...the space in which we're travelling." |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 08:17:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
I've seen it said on the forum that those with a premature crown awakening may be doomed to another premature crown awakening in the next life if they kill themselves.
Hi TTN,
Not sure where you saw this, but having one premature crown opening does not mean a second one will be premature if proper measures are taken. My first crown opening was premature, but my second one was beautiful.
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
What are everyone's thoughts on suicide?
Admittedly, I have been considering this as an option recently, however I have a lucid mind and would never do anything rashly. It hasn't been something I've considered in the past but I don't feel like I have any better choices at this point. If I did choose this path I would like to do so with full knowledge and intent. I would plan it out and make sure that I did as little harm as possible.
Question... have you been contemplating ways to kill yourself, or do you go to bed wishing you dont wake up (wish you were dead)? |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 10:55:56 AM
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I have personally wished death for someone close to me and felt relief after it was granted despite the ongoing grief from the conditions leading to it as well as their passing. I also have a friend for whom death is simply discarding a vehicle that no longer has any purpose beyond keeping one bound to an inevitable course of decline followed by a slow traumatic passing.
In the natural world, anything that is gravely debilitating and painful is quickly discarded by the elements alone (temperature, nutrients, predators, disease). I have read an article that mentions how doctors themselves, knowing the prognosis of a disease, often choose to let it take its course as opposed to going for the very procedures they themselves are by law required to provide to others, knowing full well the additional pain and suffering that is not worth extending one's life by for by a bit.
From Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, "A foolish death means foolishness reborn; Suffering caused by extraneous factors — some painful and incurable disease, or unbearable calamity — may provide some justification, but where wisdom and compassion are lacking, suicide cannot help; Disease and suffering are not natural...there is also dignity in the refusal of meaningless torture and humiliation." |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 11:12:48 AM
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What a difficult question, lots of different responses!
Shanti, I fear that a spontaneous crown opening in this life means that I would have one in the next... at least that's what I've interpreted Yogani to have said. That freaks me out because it means I would be cursed in the next life as well.
quote:
Question... have you been contemplating ways to kill yourself, or do you go to bed wishing you dont wake up (wish you were dead)?
Violence feels completely unnatural to me. I just would prefer not to exist in this form any longer. The pain never stops, and I no longer have hope for a better life. Since life will not get better, I would prefer to not suffer.
Bodhi Tree,
Thank you for the link. I enjoyed listening to that. What is it in me that wants to die? I have tried that in self inquiry and I think the answer is everything in me that is temporal wants to die.
I don't see miracles any longer and I haven't for a long time. All life has become is an endless slog with no mountaintop. One could keep going... but why would they?
emc,
thanks for your thoughts. I totally empathize with what you're saying about the fear. I'm always surprised at how insanely anti-suicide western culture is. It's obviously effected how I think about the topic (which is why I wanted to discuss it here).
I like your quote about "how might I die today?", and getting enthused about that. I've experimented with this, and what happens to me is that within a short time all kinds of very small, very sh*tty things start happening to me. Instant karma... part of the reason dying would be nice! Thoughts easily create negative circumstances but rarely positive ones.
It sounds like you've experienced a lot of the same feelings that I am experiencing now. I'm happy to see that you seem to have recovered from that.
Wolgang and Karl,
thanks for sharing. I guess my feeling is that if god has the power to create such profound suffering in a life then that person has the prerogative to end their life. We've all heard it said that god "doesn't put more suffering on someone then they can take", however this is not true in my opinion.
Thinking about it, I feel much more free to make a decision like this, less constrained by my own self judgement. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 11:19:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
I have personally wished death for someone close to me and felt relief after it was granted despite the ongoing grief from the conditions leading to it as well as their passing. I also have a friend for whom death is simply discarding a vehicle that no longer has any purpose beyond keeping one bound to an inevitable course of decline followed by a slow traumatic passing.
In the natural world, anything that is gravely debilitating and painful is quickly discarded by the elements alone (temperature, nutrients, predators, disease). I have read an article that mentions how doctors themselves, knowing the prognosis of a disease, often choose to let it take its course as opposed to going for the very procedures they themselves are by law required to provide to others, knowing full well the additional pain and suffering that is not worth extending one's life by for by a bit.
From Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, "A foolish death means foolishness reborn; Suffering caused by extraneous factors — some painful and incurable disease, or unbearable calamity — may provide some justification, but where wisdom and compassion are lacking, suicide cannot help; Disease and suffering are not natural...there is also dignity in the refusal of meaningless torture and humiliation."
Great post. Thanks for sharing.
I like the quote you provided at the end... I feel that suicide in this case would be a refusal to god, and standing up to the suffering he has forced me to endure meaninglessly. It took me a while to see through the ruse, but now that I have I won't be a fool any longer. I don't know how that rates on the scale of justification, but it just feels like the right thing.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 2:04:45 PM
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I haven't recovered. I'm swinging a lot. But it looks nicer on forum to present the more positive insights that come when I'm a bit more up. My agony I put in Yogani's lap in emails. Haha! Poor Yogani.
It's interesting, though, that you have had a premature crown opening. I've had a rather violent opening too. Sharing the same hopelessness about the system ever to be able to stabilize, and a wish just to not exist in form. I've had that wish since I was born. But I realize it's very true what Bodhi Tree says: "It is our identification with pain that wants to die." It's the death of the personal attachment that is so longed for. As soon as that is gone, it's not about me anylonger. And pain is not what it was believed to be, and thus no problem to cope with.
I go with Yogani's advice to use all emotions as fuel to bhakti. It's not such a bad idea. Just give it back to source. |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 2:07:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Wolgang and Karl,
thanks for sharing. I guess my feeling is that if god has the power to create such profound suffering in a life then that person has the prerogative to end their life. We've all heard it said that god "doesn't put more suffering on someone then they can take", however this is not true in my opinion.
Thinking about it, I feel much more free to make a decision like this, less constrained by my own self judgement.
Pardon the question: do you feel that god has created the suffering in your life ? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 2:25:00 PM
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Hi TNTN,
quote:
I feel that suicide in this case would be a refusal to god, and standing up to the suffering he has forced me to endure meaninglessly.
There was a great master who once said: "God doesn't care if you die... he doesn't even know who you are".
There is a huge amount of truth in that.
On the subject of premature crown openings, and what happens if you die...
Basically, when you die, you leave your physical body behind. Your consciousness will then enter your subtle sheath. The subtle sheath has three aspects, a body made of energy (light), the mental body and the knowledge (insight) body. In Sanskrit these are pranamayakosha, manomayakosha and vijnanamayakosha.
If someone is experiencing a premature crown opening, this is happening primarily within pranamayakosha, or the energy body, with some physical and mental symptoms. So if that person dies, they will continue to suffer the effects of the premature awakening in the afterlife on the energy level and the mental level (as the mind comes along for the ride too).
Because the mind survives death, mental tendencies (varsanas) also survive death and so the setup which created the premature kundalini awakening in one life will tend to be there in the next life, unless the lesson has been learned.
But my question to you would be: Do you think you are going through a premature kundalini awakening, and if so what have your symptoms been up to now, and what are your symptoms now?
Christi |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 2:28:16 PM
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Hi TTN and All:
In a recent documentary, Woody Allen (now in his late 70s) was asked, "What are your thoughts on death?"
He said, "I am definitely against it."
But seriously, while no one knows for sure what death will bring, it might be good to assume that wherever we are today in our evolution is where we will continue, if there is a continuing. There are scriptural assertions to support this view, but they are only assertions.
Perhaps it is more significant that we are all born into this life with tendencies that are quite specific, which begs the question: Are we continuing in this life with something we have been doing in a previous life? If so, isn't now as good a time as any to continue whatever it is we are doing? Even in terminal illness there is a great spiritual opportunity. Especially then, because our issues and pretenses become irrelevant. In fact, we can recognize the irrelevance of our issues and pretenses at any time. Our mortality is the great stimulator. Nature discourages us from giving it up so easily for a reason.
I do agree that embracing death has value. If we can die into each day, there can be many benefits. Recognizing that we are all dead already, right where we sit, is valuable. Doing it relationally (in abiding inner silence cultivated in meditation) is transforming.
Ramana Maharshi reported that this was the first major step on his path to enlightenment. As a teenager, he lay down one day and "died" to everything, physically, mentally, emotionally. Then he got up and lived, touching millions with his radiance for the rest of his physical life. That is what death is in this life.
Obviously, choosing suicide does not serve the same purpose, though it might serve some other purpose. It is a different discussion -- choosing whether to live or die physically. It is a personal thing. I can't comment much about it. There have been times earlier in my life when I wished it would end. But for me it was a cop-out. I'm glad I got up and lived. Now death is more about living it each day, if that makes any sense.
As I sit here and look back on my 65 years, it is a flash, as if it all happened in an instant, or didn't happen at all. This sense we have of time dragging out, for better or worse, is an illusion. There really is no such thing as time. Only a process that we witness with some attachment. Dissolve the attachment, and time dissolves with it.
This is also the essence of the assertion that while pain is inevitable in this life, suffering is optional. Suffering is attachment to the experience of pain. Dissolve the attachment and there is no suffering. Running away from the attachment by committing suicide is not going to resolve the issue. It could become a habit, following us from life to life, like any other form of avoidance.
If we can look back in abiding inner stillness on our life, it will be as if it happened in the snap of the fingers, with no residual suffering.
So what are we? Eternal bliss consciousness, witnessing a process that is ever-beginning and ever-ending. That's all. It will go on, whatever we think or do. We have the option to participate, even while we are not, dying into it each day, radiating the divine mystery that lives within us.
If death is a "big sleep," consider that it will be timeless, and if and when we are reborn in this or some other realm it will be as if we had never died. Whether we sleep in death for 1 year or 1000 years will be the same. Whatever tendency toward attachment we have had will continue as we take form again. Our tendency to be attached to objects continues as if it never stopped. The only way out of that is to transcend attachment in this life. There is evidence that we take that with us. Hence the presence of souls on this earth born near enlightenment. They brought it with them.
On the kundalini question, repeating premature openings in successive lives, who knows? I think it would be be prudent to assume that the time to deal with it is now. What better time than now? We can leave later for later, knowing we have done our best in the present.
In considering physical death, there might be the lure of continuing with a new body, spiritual or physical. But is that so easy? I look at my grandchildren right after birth, and think, "Wow, now you have so much to do ... again."
While we are here now with a lifetime of accumulated knowledge, we can do some things to advance our spiritual condition. No telling if or when we will have the opportunity later.
So, yes, die today, tomorrow, and the next day. Die into every moment, and live the fruit of that.
Just some food for thought.
The guru is in you.
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 2:32:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Wolgang and Karl,
thanks for sharing. I guess my feeling is that if god has the power to create such profound suffering in a life then that person has the prerogative to end their life. We've all heard it said that god "doesn't put more suffering on someone then they can take", however this is not true in my opinion.
Thinking about it, I feel much more free to make a decision like this, less constrained by my own self judgement.
Pardon the question: do you feel that god has created the suffering in your life ?
Created is not the word I would choose. I think we all have the capacity for infinite suffering.
However, in the case of powerful and spontaneous awakenings, we have no control over the direction of the k. We literally don't have a say. Karma becomes instantaneous. In my case at least, nothing positive arrives. Only trial after trial, and failure in every action.
In these cases, the divine forces seem to unleash karma by the bucketload. And it never stops. An endless stream of karmic consequences.
So "create" is not the right word.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 3:02:44 PM
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Whoa.  I am blasted by Yogani's post. I would've traded all my years of college just to browse this website and give these practices a try! Hallelujah. Can I get an AMEN? |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 3:12:32 PM
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Thank you Yogani for those beautiful words.
It's great help to see that others have felt (or still feel) similarly.
I don't know what else to say at this point except that I understand what you are saying.
Christi,
Thank you for your post. That quote certainly has truth in it. I don't want to "throw in the towel" if there is work left to be done, but then again, I am not so sure that the work does anything at all.
Regarding the symptoms (without going too much into it, i hope), yes I had a spontaneous crown awakening that never abated and radically changed my life. The symptoms at times have been beyond imagining. One could make the case that it's a very rare intensity of awakening. It's now going on 9 years this spring, and I've managed to get everything under control... it's been a full time job that entire time.
Thanks again emc to contributing... you and I seem to share some experiences.
It's a strange thing feeling suicidal and having inner silence simultaneously ;)
Internally, I am in love with life.
Externally, all my actions are met with failure. It's the reverse of daily miracles... it's daily curses.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 4:11:06 PM
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Hi TNTN,
quote:
Externally, all my actions are met with failure. It's the reverse of daily miracles... it's daily curses.
To one who is awake, there is no difference between success and failure.
9 years is a long time to go through a difficult awakening. So... what are your symptoms now that you have brought everything under control ? You mentioned that you experience inner silence. Anything else? |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 5:01:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi TNTN,
quote:
Externally, all my actions are met with failure. It's the reverse of daily miracles... it's daily curses.
To one who is awake, there is no difference between success and failure.
9 years is a long time to go through a difficult awakening. So... what are your symptoms now that you have brought everything under control ? You mentioned that you experience inner silence. Anything else?
Hi Christi,
Yes 9 years is a long time. Imagine starting one day as a young adult with no interest in religion and no knowledge of yoga, to St. Theresa of Avila type of stuff. I'd been suffering from severe panic disorder through my teenage years and then bam!, a giant 'bird' starts flying around and the prana rushes up through the crown accompanied by bee sounds and pure peace and ecstasy.
There's a big story there somewhere, but the point is, I had a purpose and a destiny from that moment.
In between then and now there were so many wonderful and excruciating internal and external experiences that I cannot possibly recall them all. The past year, in particular, was extremely painful.
I have managed to get the symptoms under control, for the most part. I stay away from much spinal bastrika though (  ).
Now, it is a rare day when I can't find inner silence. It's the same with the ecstasy. I can feel the radiating vitality of the unified self abiding peacefully within. Within moments I can be engulfed in the unity of all life.
All this inflames my passions and inspires me to share, to teach and to create. But as I said, all my attempts to express in the external world end in exotic failure. And the suffering continues unabated despite the stability.
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Edited by - tonightsthenight on Feb 17 2012 5:10:27 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 5:34:38 PM
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Hi TNTN,
Well, I've never been one to waste much time with words, so I'll cut straight to the chase.
It sounds like you need to wake up. And it sounds like you are ripe for it. Can you find out who you are when you have no purpose and no destiny? How much love is in that place? How much peace? How much joy?
And when you share from that place there is absolutely no expectation or attachment to the outcome. Success and failure become like distant memories. Everything becomes a dance, or a play on the surface of life and becomes very light. Nothing carries the heaviness that it carried before. You come to abide in a place that is very solid, like an ocean... always already free.
As long as you have ideas about how you want things to turn out, then you will always be frustrated. So let go of the ideas and remember who you really are.
Christi |
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LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 5:34:41 PM
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| As usual Yogani nails it ;) |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 6:03:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi TNTN,
Well, I've never been one to waste much time with words, so I'll cut straight to the chase.
It sounds like you need to wake up. And it sounds like you are ripe for it. Can you find out who you are when you have no purpose and no destiny? How much love is in that place? How much peace? How much joy?
And when you share from that place there is absolutely no expectation or attachment to the outcome. Success and failure become like distant memories. Everything becomes a dance, or a play on the surface of life and becomes very light. Nothing carries the heaviness that it carried before. You come to abide in a place that is very solid, like an ocean... always already free.
As long as you have ideas about how you want things to turn out, then you will always be frustrated. So let go of the ideas and remember who you really are.
Christi
Bravo Christi, and thank you for contributing. You are adept at this type of talk and you got right to the point.
Frankly, I don't know how to do it. I don't have anything left to give. And I've tried the opposite too .
I'm tired, like I've been running a marathon for 9 years. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 8:05:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Whoa. I am blasted by Yogani's post. I would've traded all my years of college just to browse this website and give these practices a try! Hallelujah. Can I get an AMEN?
I'll give you one better, I'll give you a HELLS YEAH!  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 9:01:30 PM
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| Many thanks, Carson, I can always count on you for the gentle wildness. |
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2012 : 10:12:16 PM
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| Yogani - thank you. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2012 : 01:49:03 AM
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wow wow great answer from Yogani... i would say hallelujah
dear Christi excellent explanation of how the mind survives...wanted to explain it but was too lazy ...excellent quote by this great master ...is he zen buddhist?
personally when i wake in the morning...the first few minutes i say to myself oh no here we go again,i was happy in deep sleep, no mind,what a bliss....and now back to tiring mental creations...i feel i want to disappear ... enough from it all...but there is a nuance, my feeling is like Bodhi Tree described:
quote:
It is our identification with pain that wants to die. It is our identification with self-despair and hopelessness that wants to die.
so after those few minutes., i can not wait to wash my face and sit in my dark meditation room to do morning sitting practices...practices source of Happiness ...after the practices i feel great and i am ready to go and be active in the world..and to accept whatever the day brings |
Edited by - maheswari on Feb 18 2012 02:17:31 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2012 : 05:27:54 AM
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Yogani, ! Thanks for a great post!
TTN, I can surely recognize that marathon feeling, the feeling of trying everything and nothing works, to know it all - the importance of surrender, and a total lack of knowing how to. And at this level of frequency - moving within the Matrix with such powers of stillness and ecstacy that has built up - the negativity of mind blows out in enormous negative manifestations! It's surely a platform for desperation! As if the stakes gets higher. Life forcing the person to live his/her realizations and creating greater and greater challenges.
I guess the main thing that keeps me going is the knowing I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. I have a choice of where to put my attention: On the past years of suffering and the following conclusion from that past that nothing will change - or on the empty future of which I know absolutely nothing. I'm learning to live in the question instead of in the conclusion.
- What else is possible?
- How does it get any better than this?
- What would it take for a miracle to happen?
And I don't try to find any answer. I just put the question out there and wait for life to respond. And repeatedly asking new questions no matter how much negativity continues to manifest, cause it suddenly leaves an empty space full of new potentials. If I have made up my mind that nothing will work - how can I invite a solution?
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Edited by - emc on Feb 18 2012 05:39:26 AM |
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suicide?
