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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 10:24:40 AM
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Hey Everyone, hope you all had a great Christmas and New Years. 
Been wondering about this for the last few days and figured it couldn't hurt to start a topic about it. What I'm wondering about is with regards to DM and samyama and picking up the mantra/sutras on a subtle level.
Recently there was a shift in perspective for me so that I now seem to see thoughts/emotions/sensations etc as "separate from myself." And with this shift I have noticed that there can be a pretty extreme amount of difference between how "solid" a thought/feeling/sensation can be. So I've begun to experiment a bit with this and as I've done so I've noticed some differences in my DM and samyama practice. I'll try to explain.
In the instructions for DM and samyama Yogani makes a point to say that we come back to the mantra at the fuzziest level comfortable (or in samyama that we pick up the sutras on a subtle level). What I have noticed since the above mentioned shift is that if I pick up the mantra (or the sutras) on the fuzziest level possible, that I don't really exit "the space where there is no investment in thought." The result of this during DM practice is that I end up spending basically my entire 20 minute meditation not repeating the mantra, not having any (conscious) thoughts, and often when my timer goes off, wondering which practice I was doing and having to take a minute or two to figure it out. And in samyama I have noticed that if I pick up the sutras on the subtlest level possible I will only repeat the first "Love" and then ten minutes later my timer will go off and I will again be left wondering which practice I was doing and if it is rest time or time for DM or if it is time for samyama.
So, I'm somewhat assuming that since the point of doing DM and samyama is to actually *do* the practice and not to just "be in the space" that I am picking up the mantra/sutras on TOO subtle of a level. Is that possible? Am I making this more complicated then it is? Am I overanalyzing things?
Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks and wishing you all the best in 2012.
Love!
Carson  |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 10:48:14 AM
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this happens to me often in samyama ...not necessary from the first sutra...but at some point i am no longer there...then i need a bit of time to remember what i am doing...which sutra i reached etc....if i have time i dont use a timer, so the samayama session can become quite long cause i am not there
i dont worry about that,i even feel it is very good progress...no need of "doing" the practice cause it is being done subconsciously...
well just my 2 cents
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 11:06:43 AM
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had this many times. I found something that hasn't been mentioned. I divorce completely from the Mantra ans Sutra. That is to say that I place awareness only on the space (for want of a better term) where they reside, although that isn't strictly a place, more like a dimension or level.
These means that I'm aware of the awareness in stillness. It's difficult to get an understanding of how to be aware of awareness, but from stillness this is possible. Anyway, I don't know if there is a need for lots of stillness first, only that it is a natural adaption from this level.
In effect I suppose I'm meditating on awareness and that awareness is meditating on the Mantra. There is a narrowing then an expansion, nothing remains exct the space in which the awareness existed. Can't describe it any other way because it's a none description.
It wasn't something consciously done, it just evolved and so I made no attempt to grasp or force the Mantra back.
I should have added something. Because it's more an attitude change. It isn't my meditation any longer. How that happened was consciously but the result is egoless meditation which has begun manifesting in the rest of life. It was Christi I think that explained how to cope with the pressure created by these practices. I asked in the Surtras for a blow off valve, by doing so I gave away control and that is the result. It manifested everywhere within a few hours. |
Edited by - karl on Jan 04 2012 11:16:31 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 12:05:02 PM
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Thanks Maheswari, Karl
@Karl: How you describe your meditations sounds pretty similar to some of the AWA (Awareness Watching Awareness) techniques. http://www.albigen.com/uarelove/awa...uctions.aspx Personally I'm choosing to continue with the DM practice even if it is naturally morphing into something else. So my question is not around if this is normal or a natural progression or whatever, it's more about wondering if in order to stick to the DM practice (and not have it morph into something closer to AWA) I should be coming out of "the space" more than I am when I am picking up the mantra or sutras. I'm pretty sure that if I allowed my meditations to morph into something more like AWA I would lose some of the purification effects received from using the "i am" mantra. So I'm going to stick to the DM practice as closely as possible but am still curious about whether or not I should be "coming out" more when I am going back to the mantra/sutras in order to continue to do DM/Samyama and not just rest in "the space."
Love!
Carson |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 12:23:23 PM
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No, the Mantra continues and the awareness watches the Mantra. Instead of entering the blank space that I think of as the source and disappearing ......I'm doing something, or maybe not doing something.
I don't think I'm meditating on awareness because that's a thought, just as the Mantra is a thought, there is an interface in which both are perceived. Even in the waking state it continues without effort.
Anyhow, as you say, that is a variation even if it isn't deliberate.
When I had those blank periods that you mention I simply followed the AYP rule book. I didn't worry if I spent the whole time stuck on one Sutra, or disappeared as soon as I began meditating. I'm wary of meditating beyond the time because I suffer overload symptoms and that annoys my wife always worked on the less is more principle.
It's working, so let it do it's work without expectation or attachment to the results and it will right fine. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 12:40:41 PM
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I recall yogani suggesting to not constantly yank oneself out of samadhi for the sake of the mantra, while the samyama would be done progressing from "!...zzz...?...!...zzz...?...!...?...zzz" to eventually "!......!......!......".
The AWA karl suggests is closer to my experience, but there is plenty of getting lost in thoughts even if barely at all off the mantra. I take that to be a beginner stage which hopefully gets replaced with getting lost in silence. Falling asleep is like that too, where at first the thoughts go bizarre and illogical (occurring in their own space by their own will which takes a few moments to enter memory upon inspection) before falling into dreamless sleep unconsciously. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 12:46:07 PM
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quote:
I should be coming out of "the space" more than I am when I am picking up the mantra or sutras
how do you do that? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 12:57:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
I recall yogani suggesting to not constantly yank oneself out of samadhi for the sake of the mantra, while the samyama would be done progressing from "!...zzz...?...!...zzz...?...!...?...zzz" to eventually "!......!......!......".
The AWA karl suggests is closer to my experience, but there is plenty of getting lost in thoughts even if barely at all off the mantra. I take that to be a beginner stage which hopefully gets replaced with getting lost in silence. Falling asleep is like that too, where at first the thoughts go bizarre and illogical (occurring in their own space by their own will which takes a few moments to enter memory upon inspection) before falling into dreamless sleep unconsciously.
Yes it's like you become awareness, like being asleep and being aware of being asleep. It's odd to explain but seems very natural in practice. It's sometimes strange to find a thought that suggests that there should be nothing at all. A call that a "go to sleep" thought,just like a parent would tell a child. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 1:07:57 PM
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| sleepless sleep as Ramana says |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 1:12:39 PM
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Thanks for all the feedback everyone!
@Maheswari: You said; "how do you do that?" I'd do that by choosing to pick the sutra up on a "more solid" level and not on such a fuzzy/subtle level.
Love!
Carson |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 1:42:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
sleepless sleep as Ramana says
LOL . There is actually a term for it ! |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 1:54:57 PM
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quote:
@Maheswari: You said; "how do you do that?" I'd do that by choosing to pick the sutra up on a "more solid" level and not on such a fuzzy/subtle level.
but when i am not there during samyama i do not have that choice...it is happening, complete blank... than much later when i "wake up" i realize that it happened....or am i missing something here? |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 2:17:21 PM
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I think Carson is talking about the initial picking up of the mantra. Whether to pick it up at a more solid level or a fuzzy level.
Carson, in my view, you should go with the most natural and easier thing. If fuzziest is what seems natural then that. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 2:33:36 PM
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Oh right. Yes, then whatever and however. That's like saying that you need to pick up a certain type of sleep feeling to go to sleep.
Instead you should just o with whatever comes up, sometimes it's solid, sometimes fuzzy, sometimes absent.........but as soon as we NOTICE then gently back to the mantra at whatever level, even if is absent again. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 2:51:16 PM
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Okay... seems I am being confusing.  Let me try to clarify.
A little while ago there was a perspective shift that I described here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=10733 Since this shift I have been seeing my thoughts (etc) as separate from "me." All thoughts are seen as objects now and there is a much more noticable spectrum of thought (from extremely subtle to extremely "solid"). This has kinda changed how DM "happens" for me. Now when I practice DM the mantra naturally refines and refines and refines until the thought of the mantra is basically gone, and as Yogani says in this quote; "When you come back to it, come back to a level that is comfortable, not straining for either a clear or fuzzy pronunciation," I am not resisting it (the refining of the mantra). But, the result of this is that once the mantra becomes this subtle I eventually just end up "resting in the space" and don't "come out" (or have any noticable thoughts) until my timer goes off. And after 15 (or even more) minutes of resting in the space, my mind just wants to stay there and I am finding that as I move into samyama I will only touch one repetition of Love and I will be gone for another 10 minutes (until my timer goes off).
I generally understand that this is all fine and normal. BUT, there is a part of me that wants to say that I should be more conscious of repeating the mantra on at least a slightly less subtle level so that I won't end up resting in the space for so long and so that I can actually get through the entire practice of samyama. Essentially I am wondering if the practice of DM and samyama is being diluted because the mantra and sutras become so subtle that I just end up resting in the space the whole time. Does that make sense?
Sorry that I seem to be having such difficulty explaining myself.
Love!
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 4:17:46 PM
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http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....=10297#10297
Is this what you mean?
I might be mistaken, but I think you are beginning to wake up at the level of the mind and Ego is acting as an attractive oblivion. It didn't complete for me, although it was very convincing at the time. |
Edited by - karl on Jan 04 2012 4:34:14 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 4:37:07 PM
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Hi Karl
Some of it sounds similar, but most of it sounds different. The space that I find myself in during DM and Samyama is definitely a space where "no thought permeates" but what I'm experiencing is really a *lack* of an experience so there is no "wamth or light" or any real way of describing "it" (since "it" is really a lacking in any sort of defining characteristics). And what I'm asking about in this particular thread isn't about "the space" at all... it's about making sure that I am not diluting the practices of DM and Samyama by allowing the mantra to become so refined that I find myself in a space where no thoughts permeate and there is no noticing of anything to indicate to me that I should go back to the mantra. The space I find myself in (or more accurately, the space I *become*) is the complete absence of *everything*. I assume that "the space" is one of the samadhi's (nirvikalpa? since there is no sense of the body?)but what I really want to understand is whether or not I should stop the mantra from refining to such a subtle level that I end up losing awareness for my entire meditation.
It seems to me that if I choose to stop the mantra from refining to such a point as to where I just rest in the space for the whole rest of my meditation, that there would eventually be *some* thoughts that would permeate the space and I would notice this and then be able to go back to the mantra. I really don't know how many other ways to say my question without repeating myself ad nauseum. And I'm now sensing that this has now crossed the line into "overanalyzing" and I think that I will just continue to see where this all heads without trying to keep the mantra from refining to such a subtle level that I end up resting in the space for the whole rest of my meditation.
Thanks for all the help everyone!
Love!
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 5:00:02 PM
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I re- read Yogani take on it. Deep purification is taking place. Just carry on and it will change again. If you feel groggy mid practice just lie down and count that as part of the meditation time.
I found that the mind can then go deeper once this phase has ended and it produces another rash of far more subtle, core thoughts, proto - thoughts. I just trust my inner Guru knows what is needed. |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 5:08:31 PM
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I think you are doing the correct way. Subtler and subtler and then samadhi. If you dont realize that you need to repeat the mantra then it is all good.
Yogani mentions somewhere that as we advance, one I AM and we are lost in samadhi. So that is still considered to be DM. Trying to be more solid doesnt sound correct to me. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 5:49:48 PM
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| ^ What near says, +1. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 6:29:56 PM
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| Maybe you are ready for a mantra enhancement. I think I switched to a longer mantra too soon, and I'm getting the opposite: staying on the mantra for long periods of time at the word-thought level. Maybe you have fully stabilized on your current mantra. |
Edited by - JDH on Jan 04 2012 6:51:45 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 9:27:39 PM
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Thanks guys
Actually, adding a mantra enhancement *does* seem like it may help this "issue." I used the 3rd mantra enhancement for about a year maybe a year or so ago (chronology and timing is definitely *not* my forte ) but after one of the retreats (I think) I ended up reverting back to just "ayam." Will feel into it a bit and maybe give the first enhancement a whirl for a few months and see how that goes.
Thanks again for all the great feedback, advice and support. Love you all.
Love!
Carson |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 9:47:33 PM
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| I will trade you mantras. Going back to IAM next sit until I get lost in outer space like you. |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 10:06:03 PM
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Hi CarsonZi,
What is the difference between the state you describe vs losing conscious or being spaced out. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2012 : 11:06:53 PM
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Hi gentlep
quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
What is the difference between the state you describe vs losing conscious or being spaced out.
As I think about your question I am realizing that in order for me to really effectively answer that question we would have to come to an agreed upon definition of "losing consciousness" and/or "being spaced out."
To me, losing consciousness would be pretty synonymous with being in a state of deep dreamless sleep. No awareness whatsoever.
Being spaced out however (to me) doesn't indicate a complete loss of awareness. Just being off in "lala land" or in a more "dreamy state."
The state that I have been finding myself in during DM for the last while is closer to the "losing consciousness" definition above and not at all like the "spaced out" definition, but it is also not a complete loss of awareness either.
There is still *some* kind of awareness, but it is sooooo subtle and I really have no idea how to accurately describe it. But, if I had to try and describe it I would say that if you took "regular waking awareness" and removed the "waking" part and then subtracted 99.99999% of the "regular" out, that would be it.  In this "state" there can be no conscious decisions made. It is just a very deep kind of resting. There is no consciousness of my body in this state, there are no ideas about being human or my current human life or any ideas at all really. There is no awareness of the planet or the cosmos or of anything else. It is just a resting of the awareness... not "in" anything, it's just resting. So fracken hard to describe it. Probably easier to describe what it is *not* then describe what it is. But what it is not is pretty much everything, so, the list would go on and on and on. 
Not sure if this helps answer your question, I'm pretty sure it didn't, but it's the best I got. 
Love!
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2012 : 12:39:01 AM
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| I think I experienced it too. Or may be not. For what I have experienced I don't know how it is different from deep sleep, as I have awareness before and after but not during. I only know about it when I come out of it. And that's how it is in deep sleep too. People say samadhi is like deep sleep but you have complete awareness during it. Then my question is if your are aware during then why aren't you aware that you are not repeating the mantra. And if you are aware that you are not repeating the mantra than why are you not repeating it. Because that's what the instructions for deep meditation is, isn't it? i.e. you get back to the mantra when you are aware that you are not repeating it. |
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Topic |
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Picking up sutras/mantra *too* lightly?
