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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 02 2011 : 7:22:48 PM
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THere's a lot I'd like to change in the world. I find the more subtle my mind gets, the more of an effect it has on the people around me. It's like, the more enlightened you get, the more power you have. They say one enlightened person uplifts the whole world. But it seems the more enlightened you get, even though you have more "power" it seems that none of the enlightened want to use this power. That they simply see through duality, see through the illusion of the mind.
It's like in the tao te ching I believe. It goes "those who want, see only what they want, and those who don't want see what's hidden".
It's kinda the paradox of being enlightened I guess. I remember while reading David Hawkins, that you eventually get to the point of being "above karmah" and that that's a sort of luciferic temptation since you could seemingly do anything and it'd be ok. I don't believe that at all, I believe god takes over in a sense, and you're mostly just along for the ride. It's like... me being normal makes more spiritual stuff happen around me, whereas me trying to force things spiritually just makes things more of a mess.
So anyway, I guess my question is, why non-duality. It is a truth... but just saying that brings up another duality. Why emptiness of everything really. Why not change the world instead??? Instead of just trying to spread emptiness.
I know I'll answer this question to myself, I always do, with my "inner guru", it seems god wants my every question answered. I did make it to Nirvana a few days ago, completely negating everything outside of myself, pure emptyness, heart sutra style. I wasn't in that state long enough to fully understand the intricacies. And I know I don't need that state for this kind of understanding, but anyway, I dunno. Input would be really cool for any of you experienced non-dual fellows who have questioned the truth of non-duality rather than blindly accepted it (yes... duality, this is more mind stuff, yadayada hehe... or scenery. It's all just scenery, blahhhh). I go through my questioning phases every now and then. I hope I don't seem like a sh** disturber. And I rather like scenery :) hehe. It brings out awe in me, child like awe
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Edited by - Divineis on Dec 02 2011 7:28:52 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2011 : 9:11:01 PM
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Stream of consciousness  ?
Until you know what enlightenment is then maybe it won't make much sense. (Now trying very hard to be as unGuruish as possible ).
Part of enlightenment is the removal of the separation that is the hallmark of that which you would term the unenlightened. Once there is no separation, then there are no need of powers. From an egoic viewpoint things are vastly different. I can guess what you are thinking. Probably on the lines of using your powers to help people, it's noble, but misguided. Easier, as you say, to become more enlightened because as you do, so amazingly does the world.
Above Kharma is correct, that you can do anything is skewed by your understanding of what constitutes action. The enlightened have reached the point when there is no action, they do not move, they have become the stillness that they first glimpsed during meditation.. The movement is within. It's an inversion of how you perceive the world. The body still goes about its everyday business, doing whatever it needs to do. Where is the possibility of doing anything, when in fact you are not doing anything.?
You realise that there was never a time when you were anything other than you have always been. You just somehow fooled yourself into believing something that wasn't true (referred to as an illusion).
So you might see that an enlightened (it's a poor description as it suggests that you become somehow greater or more, when weirdly you become far less from an egoic viewpoint at least) have no use for illusory powers if they no longer live in the illusion. As much use as a chocolate fire guard. as there is no movement the benefit of being able to do anything has no relevance and without separation there is no suffering.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2011 : 12:33:29 AM
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The mind sees imperfection because it doesn't comprehend the whole big picture. It sees a little thing and thinks it can be fixed by changing one little thing.
What it doesn't understand is changing one little thing creates a whole series of unexpected changes in other things.
An omniscient view sees that the things that seem to be simple, glaring problems are interconnected to a thousand other things that are necessary. So it is my opinion that the person with an omniscient view and power doesn't use it because he is wiser, and knows the repercussions would be worse than just leaving it alone.
It sees that the world is perfect, not because of a lack of problems, but because the jigsaw puzzle of problems all fits together perfectly to take us all in the direction we need to travel. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2011 : 01:34:28 AM
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very well said Etherfish...i would add that one may be compeled in daily life ("do your duty")to point out some impefections that is lurking,still i dont expect a change cause all is already perfect....a paradox but not really a paradox
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Edited by - maheswari on Dec 03 2011 01:48:50 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2011 : 08:19:40 AM
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Yes, we are given things we can do to contribute to mankind. Our inner guru connects with God's will, so our little mind doesn't screw it up so much.
The reason why enlightening ourselves first is not selfish, but a contribution to the world. |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2011 : 08:22:57 AM
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| Outpouring divine love or stillness in action = your enlightenment into outward action. Whether it be as a spiritual guru or a social reformer or just continuing their plain old normal work, I see the enlightened still do what they have to do. Whether we call it for changing the world or helping the people or just for themselves and their family the action is there. The motives are different now and there wont be any attachment to (or with total acceptance of) the outcome. |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2011 : 4:45:26 PM
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Karl, I get it all, just...why? I beat the cycle of rebirth, I was totally non graceful but way enlightened for about a month straight.There was no state, just pure wisdom. Death didn't scare me, but that question didn't even ever come up except at two moments, one where I thought I was dying (and didn't even have think of letting go to), and another time, which I'd rather not speak of.
Even god called me up to heaven. If you've read David Hawkins, about half the enlightened die and go to heaven, to help mankind from there. I resisted the calling, I'm way too young to die.
I feel that objects have just about as much consciousness behind them as people do. I feel this all the time.
My body always feels transparent, like it's lent to me.
I can force a state of "no I" (and deepen it by negating even that...blah, emptiness is empty hehe).
I've done miracles also. Daily even. Two I'd count as true miracles... I made a tummy ache go away (yes, it's small and useless, but, it ROCKS!!!! haha) and another, one some pregnant mother's baby, curing it of autism. I can't claim the miracle though, it's bigger than me.
Ok, I just answered my own question, this whole topic is irrelevant and useless :) hehehehe (in a god's grace kind of way :) ) still, thank you guys for replying :-D
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Edited by - Divineis on Dec 03 2011 5:09:24 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2011 : 07:37:51 AM
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If its permanent and unchanging then what is it?
If it changes and has no permanence then what is it? |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2011 : 11:54:29 AM
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| I feel both Karl,all the time. I wear a buddha bracelet on my left hand, and a watch on my right, it reminds me of the middle path :). Acknowledging the timeless reality, while acknowledging there's also a world of cause and effect out there. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2011 : 12:11:20 PM
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Could there a source from which they both feelings originate?
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2011 : 1:22:16 PM
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god :)
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2011 : 3:23:29 PM
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It's interesting. If Buddha is on your right wrist and every day life is on your left wrist, where is the reminder of God. Is that further to the left, the right, the middle, or some other place in relation to you? Or not at all related?
What is the relation to time for you? For instance, does the past, or memories, seem to come from one particular place in a similar way to where you place your reminders? Does the future seem to have a physical position in a similar way? |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2011 : 3:49:05 PM
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haha, Karl, you're awesome, the spreader of questions I'll call you.
Alright, so... spreader of questions :P .
God's on both hands, affirms form, but goes beyond form (this is experiential truth... for EVERYONE, most just don't take care to notice, meditation seems to bring out the subtleties of life... for me anyway :) ).
God's in everything, everyone, no need to remind myself of that :). It's in all ten directions, in every word, every action brought to silence, stillness. It's all energy in the world to transmute into divine love, by seeing that it's already just that.
quote:
What is the relation to time for you? For instance, does the past, or memories, seem to come from one particular place in a similar way to where you place your reminders? Does the future seem to have a physical position in a similar way?
Time... time's a funny thing. Me and one of my physicist friends, kind of encountered the non linear reality of time. We were driving, talking physics, and I kept saying, "Time is this moment, this moment, this moment". He was all like "s**t I get it, we just explained time". It's such a relative thing on the other hand though. You get lost in time with sunsets or other such awe inspiring thing. Or like a crazy jazz solo, there's no musician there or notion of time, it's just music, rhythm, pulse, sound, all relative to musicing sort of a thing. The past is remembered but not as important as the present. My grandma always says... for problems "It's in the past!! forget about it! "Evterybody knows all this. Mundane and normal, I like beliefs like that, normal ones that make the world a better more beautiful place.
I find being in the "now" is a side effect of meditation and enlightenment rather than the goal or the way to get there. Too many push away their past, and due to that hold onto it. Like pushing a baloon filled with air underwater, it just pops back up and bashes you in the face.
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 07:39:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
If its permanent and unchanging then what is it?
If it changes and has no permanence then what is it?
A whole is the sum of it's parts. If you take everything that is and add it to everything that is not, you have GOD. How can everything change? If it is not permanent, where would it go? |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 08:24:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Divineis
I did make it to Nirvana a few days ago, completely negating everything outside of myself, pure emptyness, heart sutra style. I wasn't in that state long enough to fully understand the intricacies.
How wonderful Divineis.
Please share with me what is your sadhana? Do you just do spinal breathing and DM (AYP)? Do you other techniques as well? I gather from your posts that you have had a strong Buddhist and/or Tao background, thanks. |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 08:29:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
It's interesting. If Buddha is on your right wrist and every day life is on your left wrist, where is the reminder of God. Is that further to the left, the right, the middle, or some other place in relation to you? Or not at all related?
What is the relation to time for you? For instance, does the past, or memories, seem to come from one particular place in a similar way to where you place your reminders? Does the future seem to have a physical position in a similar way?
I find that I should not be so spiritually minded that I am no earthly good. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 08:51:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
quote:
Originally posted by karl
If its permanent and unchanging then what is it?
If it changes and has no permanence then what is it?
A whole is the sum of it's parts. If you take everything that is and add it to everything that is not, you have GOD. How can everything change? If it is not permanent, where would it go?
Can you show that as a mathematical proof? The Sum of everything added to the not everything.
Do you know God on a personal or theoretical level? |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 1:49:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
quote:
Originally posted by Divineis
I did make it to Nirvana a few days ago, completely negating everything outside of myself, pure emptyness, heart sutra style. I wasn't in that state long enough to fully understand the intricacies.
How wonderful Divineis.
Please share with me what is your sadhana? Do you just do spinal breathing and DM (AYP)? Do you other techniques as well? I gather from your posts that you have had a strong Buddhist and/or Tao background, thanks.
My sadhana, eep, had to look that word up haha. I'll do my best to explain.
Zen Buddhism (without a guru) has been huge for me. Gaining insight through Koans and such. And deepening that insight through contemplation, and trying to integrate the wisdom I gain through cotemplation.
For "meditation" I just try to be extra mindful, and bring my thoughts to silence (all roads lead to Rome). I don't treat thoughts as scenery, I rather like my thoughts :) hehe.
I try to stay as grounded as possible, though with that experience of Nirvana, it makes me thing that that world we think that is real, is more maleable than we think. I'd say it's a "dream" but even that would miss the mark.
I think of the problems in the world, and how I'd affect them through what David Hawkins would term "attractor fields". At high levels of enlightenemnt, a thought can become powerful if it has the right intention behind it. It makes for like a wavelength of thought, uplifting every other thought with it.... I try to break down problems into pieces, and see how I would handle them. I'm very much a Bhoditsava kind of character, staying "behind" (in enlightenment) just so I can relate more with people. I could go "all in" by just treating everything as scenery, Yogani's more right that I ever thought, by treating things as scenery hehe. and I do believe that would help out the world, I'd rather be more normal though.
Now... it's all about seeing God in everything for me :-). |
Edited by - Divineis on Dec 05 2011 2:08:20 PM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 2:10:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
quote:
Originally posted by karl
If its permanent and unchanging then what is it?
If it changes and has no permanence then what is it?
A whole is the sum of it's parts. If you take everything that is and add it to everything that is not, you have GOD. How can everything change? If it is not permanent, where would it go?
Can you show that as a mathematical proof? The Sum of everything added to the not everything.
Do you know God on a personal or theoretical level?
I know god, meeee, hahaha :p. Karl, do you ACTUALLY think something`s wrong? (That`s me using your own weapons against you, yup, I went there, hehehe, sorry, just kidding with ya :) ) |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 2:19:05 PM
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Concepts suck by the way. Well, they`re cool for scientists, but if it`s spirituality or god you`re after... u can`t think your way there.
Just see it in one thought. Your next thought, bring it to silence, stillness, understand it... not through the lense of logic (or no logic... forget I said anything about logic really ) or what you`ve been told; just... how would I elevate this thought by simply seeing it as it is. Play with the thought, or dont. treat it as scenery, or dont. What`s the difference !?
I do it all the time, I`ve had holy urination, a holy garbage experience, a holy kind of flower kind of experience. These things just drive me, giving me more Bhakti, more spiritual drive. And now, it`s all about God.
Try this... sit in a room, and be mindful about how each object in the room is fludging awesome. Like my laptop... AWESOME, couldnt question thinsg with you without it :) hehe, the lamp at my side, AWESOME, otherwise i wouldnt have light.
Than do that to people. It`s almost tougher to do it to people than it is to objects. Too much judgement and such. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 2:40:56 PM
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No, I don't think anything is wrong. It's easy to say things from an intellectual point of view or a scenery point of view. It's not necessary and isn't a good idea to discount all the scenery, just as it isn't necessary to throw out art and entertainment because it isn't reality.
If you experience Nirvana and then you don't, that is impermanent, so you have to ask a question, is it real? Yet there is nothing wrong with enjoying it either.
Interestingly I have witnessed 'healing powers' without any connection to meditative super powers. I worked with a lady who healed a deaf person in the space of about ten minutes and I have done a fair amount of pain removal with techniques similar to hypnosis as well as hypnosis itself. So, healing does not necessarily translate to enlightenment. The Lady had spent 40 years of her life as hearing impaired in both ears and needed hearing aids. Turns out that she had actually created a belief that she was deaf because of an incident in her life. In reality there was nothing wrong with her ears, only her mind turning the volume down. All the doctors had missed it. Massive shock when she could suddenly do away with them altogether and has now been properly tested as having full hearing.
It's a matter of grounding really. Sorting out what is real and what isn't. Only you know that for sure, all I can offer is sufficient external questions to let you get some perspective. If your enjoying the ride then that's good too. |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 4:27:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
No, I don't think anything is wrong. It's easy to say things from an intellectual point of view or a scenery point of view. It's not necessary and isn't a good idea to discount all the scenery, just as it isn't necessary to throw out art and entertainment because it isn't reality.
If you experience Nirvana and then you don't, that is impermanent, so you have to ask a question, is it real? Yet there is nothing wrong with enjoying it either.
Interestingly I have witnessed 'healing powers' without any connection to meditative super powers. I worked with a lady who healed a deaf person in the space of about ten minutes and I have done a fair amount of pain removal with techniques similar to hypnosis as well as hypnosis itself. So, healing does not necessarily translate to enlightenment. The Lady had spent 40 years of her life as hearing impaired in both ears and needed hearing aids. Turns out that she had actually created a belief that she was deaf because of an incident in her life. In reality there was nothing wrong with her ears, only her mind turning the volume down. All the doctors had missed it. Massive shock when she could suddenly do away with them altogether and has now been properly tested as having full hearing.
It's a matter of grounding really. Sorting out what is real and what isn't. Only you know that for sure, all I can offer is sufficient external questions to let you get some perspective. If your enjoying the ride then that's good too.
Nice, I like that, no questions :) haha. and as for art and entertainment, I'm a musician, wooot...hehe. Well... studying music for now. Got a hard rock band who wants me to play some keys for them, and am in a Fusion Ensemble for my university (but we're gonna do gigs and stuff outside of university, we rock, yeee... ).
Grounding... :) I used to meditate in the trees haha. I have my one special tree, hehe. I think we share a love affair, me and that tree hahaha.
I like the thought of being a grounded tree with a tire swing, just to be enjoyable for other people. Make room for play.
It's like when my uncle was in the hospital for a while, he lost 30 pounds or so, and I had gained just about that much, so I told him that we should switch our weight lost/gained. It got some laughs :). i'd rather do that than pity the guy.
Miracles... they're just a celebration of life :). A lesson applied\learned. Anyone could do a miracle with the right thought. It's like in BUddhism, that within the seed of suffering is the seed for the dissolution of suffering.
I've "studied" defilements just for this reason. Lessons to learn. (found 105 defilements... some list that was online) You could say defilements are illusif I suppose, but what help is that to a normal person who isn't all into enlightenment.
It's not that there is no enlightenment, it's just... how can you deal with the secondary? (that's actually a zen koan)
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 5:42:27 PM
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quote:
If you experience Nirvana and then you don't, that is impermanent, so you have to ask a question, is it real? Yet there is nothing wrong with enjoying it either.
From your reasoning, nothing's real :p. hmrph funny how the mind can make up such a concept haha.
I think you meant rather, "what lasts". THAT, I know.
Sorry, gotta do this, on the Hawkins scale, you average just about 607. The next step up, is getting unattached to what got you to 607 (600 is the start of enlightenment, and just about the average of this whole community of Forumers, which is awesome. The world is around 215, the beggining of integrity). You've got plenty of fingers pointing to the mooon, a whole collection of them, but you're stuck on them!!! Just see the moon, let go of the finger. No one thought will ever keep you enlightened, form changes, it's all empty. You know this, I know!!
High 800's are "no self", I skipped this stage lol, felt too numb for like 10 seconds, I was like, NEXT heheh, imagine, no positive, no negative, no neutrality, just pure empty emptiness. Make the concept of emptiness empty, and then use it!!! I feel "dead already", like what's left is what's most prominent in my life, that which matters. It's a good thing, emptiness... a truth, one that stuck, hasn't left me. "Real" in your words, except one can get caught up in the state of "no I" until one realises that it's empty like a bucket ready to be filled with the grace of god or a guru or consciousness or Zen, buddha nature, christ consciousness, MU, whatever!! haha Or just, love :)
Then from 900 on upwards, it's handling the collective karmah of the world. I feel this as burning spots in my body at times, or thoughts to let go of. 987 to 988 is a pretty big change too. It's the difference between some kind of samahdi (dunno the descriptions of samahdi really well, i think it's from first to second, but always inn it, and I go higher up in stages of samahdi when I meditate). I sometimes know what a person will say before they say it, or I hear others thoughts around me... just side effects of enlightenment, not the goal.
998ish-1000 is nirvana I believe. God consciousness...yes, even the buddha knew god, he just didnt want to give a bad rep to his name hehehe.
and at nirvana, you fully realise you were always there, that god was always with you, just a tad too much dust on the sandal or mirror or whatever to invite him into your life. You see people as perfect. Personalities are held dear to you, becuz not much else is real.It's like "the world is enlightened, so how can I see people as other than who they are, but they're all unique and just as beautiful as any other person". You hold human'ness to be beautiful and real.
Just in case you're wondering, i'm at a steady 987-988, and it's a logarithimic scale, so the higher you go, the further away the numbers are. God I'm awesome... haha, sorry :). blah, that's what my yoga teacher taught me to say when people ask "how are you"... I'm GREAT!! (great person, blahh,you get the point hehe, ) alright, I hope that didn't burst your bubble or anything.
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 6:03:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
quote:
Originally posted by karl
If its permanent and unchanging then what is it?
If it changes and has no permanence then what is it?
A whole is the sum of it's parts. If you take everything that is and add it to everything that is not, you have GOD. How can everything change? If it is not permanent, where would it go?
Can you show that as a mathematical proof? The Sum of everything added to the not everything.
Do you know God on a personal or theoretical level?
Beautiful Divineis. I can feel your soul through my computer.
I think many times we carry an idea beyond it's intended purpose. When Yogani says don't focus on the scenery. The idea is that it isn't the scenery that got you here, but the practice. So in order to make future progress you should focus on continuing to do the practice. However, consider this, one of the reasons a person takes a trip is to enjoy the scenery.
Sri Karl
My statement, a whole is the sum of it's parts, is considered a mathematical axiom. Everything, not everything is refered to a Polarized Concept, a Contruct. A condition of duality. However, there is no duality in unity. Is an idea a thing? Thoughts are not individually created, rather they are universally rooted
Two answer your second question. Both.
Everything that I have received has been given. That being so, why should I boast like it has not. Rather to say that I am enlighten. I would prefer to say I am enlightening.
A futher question, What do you mean when you say "know?" What does it mean to know something? |
Edited by - Mikananda on Dec 05 2011 6:08:23 PM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 6:27:19 PM
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Thanks for sharing Mikananda :). I find the scenery just drives my spiritual path even more.
I'm a painter too, not just a musician haha. I love looking at the world in the eyes of a painter. havent been doing that much lately, but... everything takes on a new beauty when you truly look for it. I had a beautiful spiritual moment, of all places... at a bus terminal, just enjoying the geometry of like man made structures and such. Looking at things and wondering what the hell kind of paint colours would I use to paint whatever I'm looking at.
I especially love the clouds when the sun is setting, that pinkish purpleish hew. It's the same colour I've seen in my crown chakra, most beautiful color ever.
I sometimes think of one "tone" too, for music, and for that moment consider it to be the holiest of tones... im sure it changes (I dont have perfect pitch), but sometimesjust hearing one note is rather peaceful :) |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2011 : 7:35:47 PM
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I shouldn't have asked so many questions, it became a landslide.
I will have to forgo a point by point reply otherwise the world will run out of electricity.
Hawkins scale, sorry It means nothing at all to me. I get on with whatever is needed, however directed, do the practises, work on myself and let my commitment/bakhti be the process by which my world heals The Ego needs to measure and seeks approval and should lead to further inquiry otherwise I must be miles away from any understanding of enlightenment.
Hi Mikanda
I was interested in your definition mathematically. It seemed like an equation. Polarities are interesting. Common mathematical concepts always refer to 0 as the start of all numbers.
In unity all things are one, or perhaps zero would be better.this is not a describable place, it is the place from which descriptions and consciousness manifest. While we experience consciousness we can know God. After all we are made in his image, all we need to do is to initiate the relationship. Just like a mirror, it is empty until we are prepared to approach.
I have said very often that we can enjoy the ride that is life. I don't subscribe to the idea that it is an illusion except for the necessity of using that idea for realisation. It is a beautiful creation of infinite Love. Real means something different to me than the idea of illusion, or the source of all. It means things as they are, not how I think they are.
The one area I still find that makes little sense is the idea of Universal thought. From the sense that all is derived from the source, that is a given, I already live there. Within the manifestation of consciousness, I breath, I think. There is polarity involved. Something that fits with the idea of a division of unity instead of just an increasing integer. A split. It is said that God separated the light from the dark. No one said that the light indicated a binary 1 and dark the Zero. It seems consciousness has the same polarity, both shadow and light. This tension between both is where it seems to me that thoughts are created, but what do I know.
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to change things or to see them as perfect
