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nirmal
Germany
438 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 18 2011 : 05:58:16 AM
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Hi everybody,
I have been pondering and meditating about the premise of why would a perfected soul of the Universe seek imperfection(into the illusion of flesh) to realize the perfection from whence it came?
This is not "logical" to me to have this seemingly endless cycle of birth and death when the soul Is perfect in the "heavens"; would choose to go into imperfection(illusion) only to be perfected again(if self-actualization does not occur to a degree that samsara is thus finally ended?)
 nirmal |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2011 : 06:13:00 AM
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| that is why Jnanis say: where do you want to go? you are already That.... there is no birth no death no samsara no reincarnation... |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2011 : 1:18:41 PM
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How is it that the flesh is an illusion? I'd say it's borrowed (the body), but that it's an expression of consciousness/spirit. That's the middle path to me, the path between what's physical, and what goes beyond form. That's why I usually wear a buddha bracelet in one hand, and a watch in the other. It reminds me of the middle path :). You can't deny that people are stuck in the world of karmah of time, but there's enlightenment, which does go beyond form and time, and at brings out ego to be brought to its demise.
Cutting away the thousand things I say(duality) and leaving just one... In other words bringing things to their end without bringing up opposites. No struggle, just seing things as they are. It only takes ONE MOMENT of going inside to truly see this.
Your soul in heaven isn't perfect either. There's always imperfection within consciousness. |
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nirmal
Germany
438 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 08:23:11 AM
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Hello Divineis,
Thanks for your question and comments,they have brought me around to my own experiences and "beliefs." This is the way I see it: All that is present here in the physical experience is known as Maya, or illusion.(the veil of ignorance),That we are not physical bodies having a Spiritual experience but we are Spiritual beings having a physical experience. As Ramama Maharishi said(asked)Who am I? Why am I here? for me is perhaps the 2 most importanct questions to me and my Path. He also said:"is this arm me? Am I my body(that will decay and no longer exist.)? Is sickness me? Sacred writings like the Vedic texts and the Bhavagad Gita expound these concepts and how to lift that veil of ignorance, leading to light where there once was darkness.
This flesh is the holder of the ego which must be transcended in
order to obtain freedom/liberation; the self actualised.
Thoughts are not real as they are figments of the imagination.(Dharma)
Yes, you are right, "only takes one moment" for these realizations. For me, this is the space between thoughts to experience the "self" and transcend the illusion. I agree with you in a lot of what you said.
I hope I made sense and that I haven't said what is already known.
nirmal |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 1:31:17 PM
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quote:
How is it that the flesh is an illusion? I'd say it's borrowed (the body), but that it's an expression of consciousness/spirit.
true the body exists but it is a relative reality....even relative reality is an expression of consciouness...
as Ramana Maharshi says:
"At the level of the spiritual seeker you have got to say that the world is an illusion. There is no other way. When a man forgets that he is a Brahman, who is real, permanent and omnipresent, and deludes himself into thinking that he is a body in the universe which is filled with bodies that are transitory, and labours under that delusion, you have got to remind him that the world is unreal and a delusion. Why? Because his vision which has forgotten its own Self is dwelling in the external, material universe. It will not turn inwards into introspection unless you impress on him that all this external material universe is unreal. When once he realises his own Self he will know that there is nothing other than his own Self and he will come to look upon the whole universe as Brahman" |
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nirmal
Germany
438 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 2:56:19 PM
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Hello maheswari,
Excellent! Well said.
I still don't know why a perfected soul would (Earth is a school?) choose imperfection to know what already is perfect. Why not stay in the "heavens"? Does the Soul enjoy torture or what?!!!
 nirmal |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 4:07:12 PM
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dear Nirmal
i will share with you what an advanced Lebanese student of Francis Lucille emailed me yesterday:
"As for coming back, the question is still presupposing a separate entity that becomes enlightened and then sits down in heaven and is told to come back or not to come back.
While in fact, it is the illusion that disappears, the real Self does not go anywhere, it was, and still is, one with Life that shines in the rose and thinks in every mind and celebrates in every body and loves in every heart" |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 4:44:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
"As for coming back, the question is still presupposing a separate entity that becomes enlightened and then sits down in heaven and is told to come back or not to come back.
While in fact, it is the illusion that disappears, the real Self does not go anywhere, it was, and still is, one with Life that shines in the rose and thinks in every mind and celebrates in every body and loves in every heart"
What a great answer - thanks for sharing this. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2011 : 09:45:30 AM
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you are welcome amoux
Love |
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nirmal
Germany
438 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2011 : 07:46:43 AM
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Hi maheswari,
Like you said, the forgetting who we are and living in the earthly world by itself creates this delusion. There is the bodily birth and death, which manifests into samsara and reincarnation.
And most definitely the Soul is all these things like you have said.
No beginning no end, pure awareness and infinite,etc.
But maybe when the soul is in "heaven" he chooses this illusion by incarnation so that he may gain higher levels of consciousness to ultimely be so evolved, the soul is free of these bondages?
This would indeed be a liberation!
Maybe this is at least one possible theory of why a perfected soul chooses to go to imperfection(and back to) perfection) in order to "return home" and forever be a permament child of the Universe.
Hope I made sense! I have been pondering very seriously about this; right or wrong, who knows?
love,
nirmal
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2011 : 09:48:44 AM
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Yes I believe there is much to be gained spiritually by living in the dual world.
It is the kind of thing that can't be understood in this dual world.
It is easy to get tangled up with words trying to talk about this subject. It's like trying to make a realistic picture of a sunrise with crayons. There are many great artists who could make an incredibly beautiful drawing,
but all of them would be imitations of a sunrise.
Words are the same. They are all just imitating something else, and especially poorly when it comes to spiritual subjects.
Maharshi says it is necessary to teach that this world is illusion. Probably you can stimulate bhakti by encouraging a student to focus beyond physical reality, to a high ideal that can't be seen. But this can backfire by causing desire to withdraw from society and cause apathy toward mundane life. I'm sure this is not a problem with the old guru/ student relationship. But I think with AYP style practices it is not necessary.
The truth is, this reality is real from the perspective of words. Whatever the reason for our coming here, once we are conscious here, this world is real, not an illusion. What makes it real is having a body that is temporary. When you bring your consciousness outside your body, then the world of the body is illusion.
It's like playing a video game and you haven't conquered level one yet because you keep insisting it is just a game. . .
Your higher self decided to play the game for reasons you can't understand. Your little avatar on level one doesn't want to go through all the trouble of conquering level one; it wants to be YOU and not play the game.
He sees that you don't have all the little problems he has to solve.
He doesn't know that he doesn't exist, and you do exist, and you want to play the game.
So we have to trust our higher selves on this - they put us here for a reason. Of course that reason is probably beyond what we call "reason".  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2011 : 12:32:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
"As for coming back, the question is still presupposing a separate entity that becomes enlightened and then sits down in heaven and is told to come back or not to come back.
While in fact, it is the illusion that disappears, the real Self does not go anywhere, it was, and still is, one with Life that shines in the rose and thinks in every mind and celebrates in every body and loves in every heart"
Thats an elegant answer.
When the stage lights go out the audience vanishes along with the players, stage and lights Nothing happened before and nothing will happen after. Everything is exactly how it has always been. While you are there, enjoy the play. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2011 : 12:59:03 PM
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quote:
But maybe when the soul is in "heaven" he chooses this illusion by incarnation so that he may gain higher levels of consciousness to ultimely be so evolved, the soul is free of these bondages?
you are still thinking that there is a separate entity called nirmal...Robert Adams says "you have no personal life"...
why the play is being played? we dont know...some call it Lila...but even this play is not absolutely real....
as Karl said :really nothing ever happened,everyhting is exactly as it has always been...nevertheless enjoy it |
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nirmal
Germany
438 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2011 : 2:08:07 PM
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O.K.,
The seperate entity is the duality(the physical and the spiritual); so there msy be a physical body as one side, and the flip side is the soul.
Hence, duality.I understand that the body is not me, and my soul is like that you described.
nirmal |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2011 : 4:27:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Words are the same. They are all just imitating something else, and especially poorly when it comes to spiritual subjects.
Agreed :)
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Maharshi says it is necessary to teach that this world is illusion. Probably you can stimulate bhakti by encouraging a student to focus beyond physical reality, to a high ideal that can't be seen. But this can backfire by causing desire to withdraw from society and cause apathy toward mundane life. I'm sure this is not a problem with the old guru/ student relationship. But I think with AYP style practices it is not necessary.
This might be one of the most important things I have ever read:
"The world is illusory; Brahman alone is real; Brahman is the world." – Ramana Maharshi
I also agree with Krishnamurti when he said "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." If we accept normal perception as being "real", then why would we seek Truth? Perhaps it isn't required for a seeker to regard the world as illusion in order to "realize". But the teaching is common in spirituality. And for good reason, IMO. Also, if withdrawing from society is part of someone's experience, so be it. No evaluation is necessary. Any condition of "withdrawal" or "apathy" is only temporary.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
The truth is, this reality is real from the perspective of words.
Do words have a perspective?
From my perspective, the way beings normally perceive is illusion. For example: it is known that matter is 99.9999999....% space. We don't experience it that way. Much the same with the way sight operates. What we see is an interpretation of light by consciousness- an image projected on awareness.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Whatever the reason for our coming here, once we are conscious here, this world is real, not an illusion.
What do you mean by "once we are conscious here"? We are consciousness. How can we become what we are?
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
What makes it real is having a body that is temporary. When you bring your consciousness outside your body, then the world of the body is illusion.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I don't see the body as making anything real. The body is a vehicle for experience, a vehicle for life. I must be reading you wrong, but how do you "bring your consciousness outside your body" when consciousness is already within and without the body, and everything else?
Thank you.
Love,
chas
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Edited by - chas on Nov 21 2011 4:32:57 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 04:56:38 AM
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I am in this world, not of it.
Only while you are conscious does your universe exist. Where does it go when you are not conscious?
It is described as Brahman, but only the conscious mind can describe it as a conceptual, created thing called Brahman. It is not created, it only 'is', neither can it be said to exist because existence is illusory. It was always because it is independent of time and space. Everything and nothing, pure paradox to the conscious mind and never requires a description for the unconscious mind.
There is no mystery, accept what you see, know you are not that, but accept it anyway. Make your way in the universe, weep, laugh, love, it is creation, know that you are here for just a moment.
It's like watching a film, enjoy it fully knowing that it is momentary, laugh and cry with the characters, immerse yourself fully always knowing that it is not real. Knowing it isn't real means you can get more involved without fear, you can love without risk, cry without suffering.
If you accept the world as illusion there can be no fear. If there is fear then you have fooled yourself. Be as you are and enjoy the ride. You do not return because it never was, you were always what you always have been, but don't let that stop you enjoying the party. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 08:16:25 AM
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| i would NOT use the word soul cause it still connotes a separate entity...Consciouness or awarness are much more accurate......consciouness is in everything and eveyrbody and everywhere...even in the relative reality of the physical world.... |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 08:46:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
It is described as Brahman, but only the conscious mind can describe it as a conceptual, created thing called Brahman.
Karl, the quote I referenced from Maharshi was important in my path not for conceptualization of Brahman or the world, but for my desire to seek Truth. Likewise regarding the teachings of samsara and maya.
There is a difference in what I'm calling consciousness and you are calling conscious. Whether "conscious" or "unconscious"/deep sleep etc., awareness/consciousness remains. Awareness/consciousness, absolute/relative, I don't care much to debate about. We are limited by words, and in my opinion such debates are an exercise in futility. I don't have a position anyhow. But, I enjoy your writing. Thank you. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 09:01:38 AM
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Originally posted by chas
If we accept normal perception as being "real", then why would we seek Truth?
Because we sense there is more than what we normally perceive.
There are many other realities besides ours.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
The truth is, this reality is real from the perspective of words.
Do words have a perspective?
Yes, words ARE the illusion, not the reality they come from.
Whenever we are using words we are immersed in illusion.
Words are not real, other than the babbling sound they make.
Not that they aren't very useful and necessary, but they trick us into thinking we are doing something when we are just imagining.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Whatever the reason for our coming here, once we are conscious here, this world is real, not an illusion.
What do you mean by "once we are conscious here"? We are consciousness. How can we become what we are?
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When we are born we become conscious of this world. You have to have a body to have this perception.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
What makes it real is having a body that is temporary. When you bring your consciousness outside your body, then the world of the body is illusion.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I don't see the body as making anything real. The body is a vehicle for experience, a vehicle for life. I must be reading you wrong, but how do you "bring your consciousness outside your body" when consciousness is already within and without the body, and everything else?
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Your consciousness is in the body during normal waking hours. It is brought out of the body at other times like meditation, sleep, death.
The real world is perceived by your senses that are connected to the body. That and the body being mortal makes the world real while it is alive.
When the body is gone you don't perceive the world through the physical senses anymore, and you don't protect the body from being destroyed anymore, so the perception is completely different and it's not the same world. The body only sees part of the reality because the senses are configured for preservation. There is much more to the real world than our senses tell us. There is too much information for us to perceive it all so our upbringing teaches us what information to ignore (from our senses), and what we perceive is a small part of what is there. This causes people to disagree because different cultures and families ignore different things.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 09:24:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chas
[quote]Originally posted by karl
Karl, the quote I referenced from Maharshi was important in my path not for conceptualization of Brahman or the world, but for my desire to seek Truth. Likewise regarding the teachings of samsara and maya.
There is a difference in what I'm calling consciousness and you are calling conscious. Whether "conscious" or "unconscious"/deep sleep etc., awareness/consciousness remains. Awareness/consciousness, absolute/relative, I don't care much to debate about. We are limited by words, and in my opinion such debates are an exercise in futility. I don't have a position anyhow. But, I enjoy your writing. Thank you.
I never really understood Brahman, just as I never understood God, although the concept was clear. I just followed what Marharshi said and attempted to stay in the place prior to consciousness. It was a simple instruction. All other descriptions fail at that point. It's just like the event horizon of a black hole, beyond the horizon all physical laws collapse. Even awareness, for what can be aware of awareness? both question and answer cancel out in unity.
It follows that what is there is here also. There are not two. Everything from awareness is illusion, even awareness is illusion. So, conscious or unconscious are just forms of the same thing.
It is referred to as illusion, yet it isn't, it is creation and it needs no purpose. We only need to understand ourselves, then come back in and enjoy the fireworks.
Thank you for your comments and likewise.
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 10:12:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Because we sense there is more than what we normally perceive.
There are many other realities besides ours.
Agreed, but you could also say there are many other illusions besides ours. reality/illusion. Either way, what we perceive normally is only a small part. This we agree on, it seems.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Yes, words ARE the illusion, not the reality they come from.
Whenever we are using words we are immersed in illusion.
Words are a part of illusion/reality, but certainly not all of it. Do you consider beings not using words as unidentified, and not immersed in illusion?
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Your consciousness is in the body during normal waking hours. It is brought out of the body at other times like meditation, sleep, death.
I disagree with "your consciousness". The implication is it is mine, when actually it is our essence, it is fundamental- not a thing to be had. "I" can't bring consciousness anywhere. I can move through consciousness. I can dissolve into conscioussness. But consciousness is present everywhere, regardless of what I am or am not aware of.
Otherwise, it seems we mostly agree. Thanks for your time.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 2:02:50 PM
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Chas wrote: "Words are a part of illusion/reality, but certainly not all of it. Do you consider beings not using words as unidentified, and not immersed in illusion?"
I didn't mean to say words are all of the illusion; just that all of words are illusion. Whether beings use words or not has nothing to do with whether they are immersed in illusion, although animals seem to be more in-the-moment than people in general.
chas wrote:"I disagree with "your consciousness". The implication is it is mine, when actually it is our essence, it is fundamental- not a thing to be had. "I" can't bring consciousness anywhere. I can move through consciousness. I can dissolve into conscioussness. But consciousness is present everywhere, regardless of what I am or am not aware of."
maybe i should have used the word "awareness". What I meant by your consciousness is what you are consciously aware of at the moment. |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 7:06:52 PM
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Sweet. Thanks, Ether.
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 10:10:44 PM
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This:
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Everything from awareness is illusion, even awareness is illusion.
And this:
quote:
Originally posted by karl
It is referred to as illusion, yet it isn't, it is creation
= awareness is creation
from lesson 333 http://www.aypsite.org/333.html :
quote:
Regarding your question about the witness versus emptiness, the witness and emptiness/void are two aspects of the same thing. The witness is awareness with objects. How could there be a witness with nothing to witness? But emptiness can be present with or without objects. So the witness is emptiness with objects.
It’s the same with consciousness. We use the word all the time – pure bliss consciousness and all that – but it only has meaning when there is something to be conscious. Consciousness is awareness being conscious through a body/mind. Beyond the body/mind, it is empty/void.
Emptiness/void is awareness with no objects. Nothing to be aware of. Pure potential, beyond all that exists. The source of all. We can also be that in the body/mind. We are that. It expresses as consciousness and the witness through the body/mind, and as everything we see and do.
The question arises, can awareness exist with no vehicle, no body? Is emptiness/void aware? How can we know? That is why the words emptiness and void are used. Awareness in emptiness is left as an open question. Quantum physics is at this point in its scientific inquiry also. But look around. Miracles are happening all the time, so why not eternal awareness? I'm game for it if you are. At any rate, awareness is now. We have it, and we are it. That we know. So it is suggested to take the necessary steps to live it fully in unity. That is freedom. That is liberation, and it is available to all human beings. quote:
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Edited by - chas on Nov 23 2011 02:45:59 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 04:01:10 AM
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Yes, Awareness is creation. What remains beyond is the potential, every possibility. There is no need for awareness. Awareness is just one of those ipossibilities.
It is the zero point containing all. Zero does not mean empty or void, it is like the mathematical accumulation of all numbers - infinity +infinity. Even in the human mind 'void' or emptiness cannot be conceived, because emptiness has to be conceptualised into something or a lack of something.
Easier to test that, than try and make a rational explanation, a concept of zero is still a concept, but it's the best I can come up with.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 07:31:29 AM
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| Computers think zero (0) is half of everything, the other half being 1. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Nov 23 2011 07:32:00 AM |
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perfection?
