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Originally posted by gatito

Thanks chit-ananda51

That's very helpful.

Can I ask a supplementary question please?

There are supposed to be eight "levels" of Jhana. Do you know how these relate to nirvikalpa samadhi?

My own sense is that eighth jhana is the "equivalent" of nirvikalpa samadhi (i.e. "Consciousness without objects" or "Consciousness shining in its own Light") but I have never found anyone who can give me any kind of answer to this question at all. You are the first person who I've found who has helped me with this investigation and I'm hoping that you may be able to help me a bit more.

I have yet to search the forums properly but I will certainly do so and if you are unable to shed any further light, you have already helped m immensely with your previous answer, so thank you again.

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4th Jhana
Finally, we arrive at the last of the fine Material Jhanas. Here we are left only with the last Jhanic factor of one-pointedness accompanied by equanimity. Whenever there is only one-pointedness, it must be associated with its twin ---equanimity. He is totally absorbed with the breathing: he and the breathing are one. At this stage, there is neither mental bliss nor grief. There is also no physical pain or pleasure. There is only specific neutrality: free from attachment and aversion. And at the very late stage of 4th Jhana, the yogin may think he is not breathing, but the fact is that he is breathing, albeit very, very slowly and shallowly. As one progresses through all the stages of Jhana, one's breathing automatically becomes shallower and slower until it appears that the yogin is not breathing, both to himself and to the observer."

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The five Jhanic factors are: (1) Applied Thought (2) Sustained Thought (3) Rapture (4) Mental Bliss (5) One-pointedness with Equanimity.

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The mind's absorption on its object is brought about by five opposing mental states — applied thought, sustained thought, rapture, happiness and one pointedness — called the jhana factors (jhanangani) because they lift the mind to the level of the first jhana and remain there as its defining components.

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I'd realised the need to re-establish a practice in my life and signed up to a month-long Jhana retreat just before stumbling across AYP.

Can anyone shed any light on jhana and nirvikalpa samadhi please?

Specifically the relationship between them - if any?

Also how do these concepts relate to what's being taught here?

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There are supposed to be eight "levels" of Jhana. Do you know how these relate to nirvikalpa samadhi?

My own sense is that eighth jhana is the "equivalent" of nirvikalpa samadhi (i.e. "Consciousness without objects" or "Consciousness shining in its own Light")

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Originally posted by gatito
...
although I had intended to go on a retreat with Francis Lucille in Paris this Christmas because I understand that this formed part of his Path via Jean Klein (his teacher). As I've spent a great deal of time with Rupert Spira (Francis's student) exploring the Direct Path teachings of Krishna Menon, I was curious to meet Francis personally and to find out directly about the Kashmiri Yoga, which I had heard he teaches.

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Regarding where I found information on the eight levels of Jhana: -
...

Tina Rasmussen and Stephen Snyder http://www.jhanasadvice.com and their books and

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Shaila Catherine http://imsb.org/about/teachers.php via her book Focused and Fearless.

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I recently bought her latest book Wisdom Wide and Deep but since coming across AYP, my interest in pursuing the Path of Jhana has ended (because I've found the Deep Meditation to be exactly what I was looking for and Jhana seems to be extremely hard to learn!! )

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After becoming a homeless one, the Bodhisatta went to
two different teachers of "concentration meditation". His
first teacher was Alara Kalama. After learning the Dhamma
and discipline, he practiced until he attained a very high and
distinguished stage of meditation called the "realm of
nothingness". The Bodhisatta then went to his teacher and
asked whether he could proceed any further with that
meditation. Alara Kalama replied that it was the highest
stage anyone could attained. The Bodhisatta was dissatisfied
and went to another teacher by the name of Uddaka
Ramaputta. He learned the Dhamma and discipline, then
practiced it and attained the "realm of neither-perception nor
non-perception". The Bodhisatta again went to his teacher
and asked a similar question about there being more to
attain. Again, the Bodhisatta was told that this was
absolutely the highest attainment anyone could achieve. The
future Buddha was disappointed because he saw that there
were still many more things to let go of. He observed that
these "concentration techniques", which focused intensely
on the object of meditation, caused tightening in mind. He
reasoned that there was still attachment whenever there was
tension in mind. He also noticed that if any part of the
experiences were suppressed or not allowed to arise, (This
occurs with every form of 'concentration'--that is, fixed
absorption concentration, or access concentration.) there
was still some kind of holding on or attachment to an ego
belief. Thus, after six long years of trying all of the various
spiritual and ascetic practices from body mortifications like
starving the body, to holding the breath, he realized that
these practices did not lead him to a calm and open mind
which was free from attachment and suffering.

On the night of the Bodhisatta's realization of the
supreme nibbana, he recalled an incident at a ploughing
festival while he was just a young boy of one or two years
old. When his attendants left him alone under a rose-apple
tree, he sat in "tranquil wisdom meditation" and experienced
a mind that was expanded and opened! He saw that this
form of meditation would lead him to the experience of
"tranquility jhanas" (as opposed to 'concentration
jhanas'). As a result of the "tranquil wisdom meditation",
his mind was filled with joy; his body became light and
happy. When the joy faded away, he then experienced
strong calmness and peacefulness. His mind and body
became very comfortable. His mind was very still,
composed, with sharp mindfulness and full awareness of
what was happening around him i.e., he could still hear
sounds and feel sensations with his body, etc., at that time.

When the Bodhisatta sat under the Bodhi tree to meditate
on the full moon night of May and made his great effort to
attain the supreme nibbana, he recalled that not all forms of
pleasure are unwholesome. He realized that there could be
pleasurable feelings arising in mind and body although there
was not any attachment to anything. That very night, the
Bodhisatta practiced "Tranquil Wisdom Meditation"
through the method of opening and expanding mind. In
short, he practiced the "Anapanasati" or "Mindfulness of
Breathing". And as we all know, he became the Buddha or
the supremely enlightened one.

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Originally posted by Christi
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The word jhana is Pali and means meditation...

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Pivotal to both systems of meditation, though belonging inherently to the side of serenity, is a set of meditative attainments called the jhanas. Though translators have offered various renderings of this word, ranging from the feeble "musing" to the misleading "trance" and the ambiguous "meditation," we prefer to leave the word untranslated and to let its meaning emerge from its contextual usages. From these it is clear that the jhanas are states of deep mental unification which result from the centering of the mind upon a single object with such power of attention that a total immersion in the object takes place.

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In the vocabulary of Buddhist meditation the word "jhana" is closely connected with another word, "samadhi" generally rendered by "concentration." Samadhi derives from the prefixed verbal root sam-a-dha, meaning to collect or to bring together, thus suggesting the concentration or unification of the mind. The word "samadhi" is almost interchangeable with the word "samatha," serenity, though the latter comes from a different root, sam, meaning to become calm.

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In terms of what we are doing here at AYP, it is the same thing... darana (concentration), dhyana (meditation), samadhi (unity). These are the last three of the eight limbs of yoga.

Christi

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6. Dharana – It means "concentration or focus of attention," and is the first step in taking the mind inward through meditation. In the lessons, we don't hold the attention on anything for long. We just bring attention easily to an object (the mantra), and then let it go how it will. This brings attention almost immediately beyond the beginning perception for the object, which is what we want. The mind will take us inward if we give it the opportunity.

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EFFORTLESS MEDITATION?
The Maharishi denies that the mind is controlled in Transcendental Meditation, and says that the mind moves naturally towards a field of greater happiness, which he calls bliss consciousness. This statement has led some of his followers to say that TM is not Yoga and that no Yogic concentration is involved. The Maharishi has certainly simplified and streamlined a technique of Yoga, and he has himself said many times that TM is his version of Yoga meditation. His teaching that ascetism, austerity, strong will-power, and iron discipline are not needed and that the natural movements of the mind can be harnessed is timely, and welcomed by the majority of people today. However, I think one should be cautious about saying that no control and no concentration are involved in it, and that it is not a form of concentrative Yogic meditation. The Maharishi has developed a particularly easeful method of meditation, but it seems to me to be clearly within the mainstream Yogic tradition.
The Maharishi's instruction to repeat a mantra mentally, and to go back to it when the attention is found to have wandered from it, is familiar in all forms of concentrative Yoga meditation.

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That there is more to this than just semantic confusion is clear from a few words (118) spoken by the Mahrishi in a television discussion which was transmitted by the British Broadcasting Corporation on 5 July, 1964: 'We, in meditation, don't make an effort. We allow the mind to get into these more effortless [sic] states, because in experiencing the subtlest state of thought, effort is less and less, and less, and less, and then no effort, absolutely no effort.'
So only the deeper stages of meditation are effortless. The dive may be effortless, but only after one has walked to the end of the springboard and made the jump in the correct manner. In TM the silent mantra provides the springboard. Similarily, Patanjali's dharana gives way to dhyana, which flows effortlessly into samadhi - what the Maharishi calls bliss consciousness.

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Originally posted by Christi
...
The word jhana is Pali and means meditation...

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Where did you find that? I found this...

"From these it is clear that the jhanas are states of deep mental unification which result from the centering of the mind upon a single object with such power of attention that a total immersion in the object takes place."

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Christi, what is your interpretation of 'dharana'? Is it sustained concentration or is it 'touching the object of attention and then letting it go'?

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When you meditate (do you do Deep Meditation?) do you make any effort to maintain constant awareness on the mantra? Do you put in effort? Do you sustain a constant stream of attention?

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Originally posted by JDH

Hey TI.

It seems like you already understand your own questions. Why keep asking questions you know the answer to? Do you feel that DM is not working? Or that you are doing it wrong? Does it matter if you are doing it wrong if it's working? Does it matter if DM does not match your interpretation of Patanjali if both methods work?

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You can try and try and try and try try try so hard to concentrate for as long and as powerfully as you can, until you are FORCED to stop because you have spent all your efforts. In this forced period of no effort, no concentration - you are still fully aware.

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You can concentrate so fully and so perfectly and so intently on an object until everything else drops away, and only the object remains. You can dissolve the object, and dissolve what's left of it, and dissolve the empty space where that was, and keep concentrating and refining down until NOTHING is left to concentrate on, and you are FORCED to stop. And in this forced period of no concentration - you are still fully aware.

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Each time you enter this state of effortless, unfocused, full awareness is like a repetition. It doesn't matter how get there, as long as you keep getting there over and over again. The state naturally wants to happen, given the right conditions - and DM is an easy way of getting there.

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DM allows for both of the above possibilities to sometimes occur. You easily concentrate, and easily refocus when you're off the mantra. It's easy on purpose. I don't think you reach samadhi each time you lose the mantra, but you do sometimes. But it's such little compared to the above methods, that there's a long term habitual tendency toward easily reaching the state of samadhi. An added bonus. Over many repetitions of occasionally going to samadhi, you begin to naturally let go of the concentration and just favor samadhi. The state is naturally favorable, and by using so little effort to begin with, it's that much easier to let go into that unfocused full awareness. Over months and years, that sometimes and occasional samadhi from DM becomes more frequent. That tiny bit of effort to pick up the mantra is all it takes, and wham, off into samadhi. If some other way seems easier or more complete to you, by all means do it. Most of the brilliance in the AYP system is in the twice daily consistent practice. If you use some other method of meditation that works for you, it will have the same effect over the long run, as long as you're using it daily.

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How can one be established in Being? Through Transcendental Meditation, Maharishi says. The three gunas--sattwa, rajas, and tamas--represent the whole field of relative, changing life. Sattwa is purity, rajas is action, and tamas is dullness. The exact translation from the Sanskrit is somewhat difficult, but that is more or less correct. To be without the three gunas, one must transcend this life of Change and be established in the Eternal life of Brahman. How does one accomplish this? After many, many, many meditations, the mind, having dipped into the transcendental level of existence so often that it has become filled, so to speak, with that transcendence. Then the Absolute, non-changing level of life "sticks" to the mind such that it then never goes away. This we call moksha, or "Enlightenment."

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The Maharishi says:
Mantenance of transcendental Self-consciousness along with activity in the waking state of consciousness requires co-existence of the two states of consciousness. The ability of man's nervous system, which is the physical machinery though which consciousness expresses itself, has to be developed to express these two states simultaneously. This is brought about by regularly interrupting the constant activity of the waking state of consciousness with periods of silence in trancendental consciousness. When, through this practice, the nervous system has been permanently conditioned to maintain these two states together, then the consciousness remains always centered in the Self.

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Originally posted by Christi
...
Hi TI,

A state of deep mental unification which results from the centering of the mind upon a single object with such power of attention that a total immersion in the object takes place, is dhyana, and is meditation.

What we normally refer to as meditation where we sit on a cushion and think about things, is actually just preparation for meditation.

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Christi, what is your interpretation of 'dharana'? Is it sustained concentration or is it 'touching the object of attention and then letting it go'?

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Dharana is bringing the concentration onto an object. It is what we do in Deep meditation with the mantra, and what we do in samyama before that object is released into silence.

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When you meditate (do you do Deep Meditation?) do you make any effort to maintain constant awareness on the mantra? Do you put in effort? Do you sustain a constant stream of attention?

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Yes, I practice Deep Meditation. In the beginning effort is needed to bring the attention to the mantra. This is dharana. If no effort is used then the mind will just wander randomly from one thought to another. Effort is also needed to bring the mind back to the mantra when it wanders off onto thoughts. In time, the mind will rest more continuously on the mantra and will wander less. This is the beginning of sustained concentration. After more time the mind will begin to merge with the mantra. Very little effort is needed at this stage to hold the concentration on the mantra. This is dhyana (jhana).

At a certain point there will be no manta, no thoughts and no effort. This is samadhi. But there can still be events happening, lights, worlds, universes, luminous beings. Time and space can still appear to exist. This is savikalpa samadhi. Beyond the subtle celestial are the realms of pure light. These are beyond even time and space but still within the realms of savikalpa samadhi. Beyond these are the unmanifest, nirvikalpa samadhi. Very little can be said about this, it can only be experienced.

So in answer to your question about applied and sustained effort. It is as the Maharishi said, that over time, less and less effort is needed. Sahaja samadhi, which is the highest form of samadhi, is an effortless state. Pure joy, pure peace. No effort is required.

Try not to read too much, if you can help it. Just practice using the simple technique given in lesson 13. And enjoy.

Christi

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Hi Christi, :)
I appreciate the time and effort that you took to respond to my questions.

All the best.
:)
TI

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Concept 1: Our sensate reality is the basis of insight practices. Reality is made of six kinds of sensations: physical sensations, sounds, sights, tastes, smells, and thoughts. These experiences are all we can know directly. When doing insight practice, reality is defined solely by what can be experienced in that moment. Corollary: Everything not experienced in that moment is assumed to not exist at that moment.
Practice: our first goal in insight practice is to identify the sensations that make up our life with attention that is steady and precise enough to get to know them very well.
In order to do this formally, clearly and consistently, we do a practice called “noting”. We make a quiet mental note of whatever we experience. We also try to stay with the sensations of breathing, either in the abdomen or at the tip of the nose when possible. If we notice the breath rising, we note “rising”. If we notice the breath falling, we note, “falling”. Similarly, we may note “thinking”, “wandering”, “feeling”, “hearing”, “seeing”, “smelling”, and “tasting”. When walking, we may note the “lifting”, “moving” and “placing” of our feet.
We may also note such experiences as “fear”, “happiness”, “pain”, “boredom”, “restlessness”, “doubt”, “wanting”, “hunger”, “confusion”, returning after these to the noting of the rising and falling of the breath.

Concept 2: The Three Characteristics of Impermanence, Suffering and No-self, are the key to deep insights. Impermanence means that many sensations arise and vanish completely during every second of awareness. Suffering means that the illusion of a watcher, observer, or doer, commonly called the “self”, is inherently painful. No-self means that all sensations arise on their own in a natural causal fashion and are aware where they are, requiring no separate agent or observer at all.
Practice: Once we have applied the first concept and gotten to know sensations as they are, then we can perceive them come and go, feel the painful tension inherent in the illusion of an observer or agent, and notice that sensations arise over there quite on their own, not requiring any observer or constituting either a self or other. They are merely part of the transient and causal nature of things.
The simple process of noting clearly and consistently, say at the rate of at least once per second, can stabilize attention enough that direct insight into the Three Characteristics arises. The corollary of this is that while we are lost in the content of our stories, dramas, thoughts, and concern for the specifics of what arises, we will not make good progress in insight. When we focus instead on the Three Characteristics of whatever arises, we will make progress in insight. Staying with the sensations of breathing is very helpful in this.

Note carefully and consistently for the duration of the meditation period, focusing on the breath but noting other things when these catch your attention. Be sure to carefully note “wandering” when the mind wanders and “thinking” when thoughts distract your attention from the sensations of breathing. Return your attention gently but firmly to the sensations of breathing.

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Originally posted by JDH

TI,

My questions were the important part of message, not my answers.

You are looking at the proverbial finger pointing at the moon. You have cut the finger off the hand, and dissected it into mangled pieces. I am done looking at the finger with you. This forum is full of people looking at the moon using DM. If some other method gets you to that state, use that method twice a day with appropriate pacing, and reap the same results. You don't have to believe it, you don't have to understand it, you just have to do it. It works anyway.

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Q: There is a Yogi who says that for realisation the eightfold Yoga is not necessary; that will-power alone will do. It is enough to concentrate on the goal with full confidence in the power of pure will to obtain effortlessly and quickly what others take decades to achieve.
M: Concentration, full confidence, pure will! With such assets no wonder one attains in no time.
This Yoga of will is all right for the mature seeker, who has shed all desires but one. After all, what is will but steadiness of heart and mind. Given such steadfastness all can be achieved.

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