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Ananda
3115 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 06:02:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogesh
quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
Not over here dear... People are very sensitive and too identified when it comes to religion, come over and visit a few areas (Christian and Muslim) in Lebanon and talk about changing one letter of any holy books or "Modernizing" religion... I promise you, you'll end up as Shish Kabbab
amending scriptures and modernization are the same kind of thing frankly, and yes this conversation is very much at the forefront of religious discussion in many circles at this time in history, especially scholars..
anyway, you seem a little irritated by my input here...
so I'll bid you adieu.
No really, there's no irritation I honestly felt it was the other way around
Salam |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 06:29:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Delara
Sorry to mess all the excitement over here...majority won't like what I'm about to say but it's o.k!I'll say it anyway.
There's nothing wrong with the scriptures,there's nothing wrong with religions.All are equally beautiful & reflect truth.What look otherwise is our own misunderstanding and pre-judgment before even reading these scriptures.
Instead of this tendency to always change what's outside why not change oneself & accept others as they are even if they want to worship a stone.That would be much much better approach.
Again,my own opinion!ignore it if you don't like it!
Love to All
Most of us here accepts everyone and most of us are well versed in the scriptures from all religions... And I pretty much talk about the same approach as you do. Because in the end the experience is one and the same. But the facts on the grounds remain very different. People are still killing and persecuting each other in the name of religion.
A big recent example, a week back are those who have broken the statues of our lady Mary mother of Jesus in different areas around Leb. One happened in the street where I used to work. While you accept others who worship stone figures, others simply don't and they consider them as blaspheemers/kofar...
The main point I am aiming at is: Religions are for human beings and not the other way around. And our religions today do have a lot of differences in their scriptures which people are fighting each others about. The world would be much better of course if those differences were removed. But then you have race and political opinions and so on... So as has been said earlier, we should work each on his self and then a candle lights another candle. Until we become fully humans there will always be war.
Love,
Ananda
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 06:46:04 AM
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quote:
most of us are well versed in the scriptures from all religions
true we are not talking out of ignorance of scriptures.....
quote:
there's nothing wrong with religions
so why are we having so many wars based on religions since thousands of years till now....remember the lebanese civil war?....remember Kosovo? today why are christians being persecuted in Iraq and Egypt? |
Edited by - maheswari on Sep 26 2011 09:31:05 AM |
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 07:37:09 AM
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If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people: but they will not cease to dispute except those on whom thy Lord hath bestowed His Mercy…Quran~Hud
When I met you a year ago,the first book you recommended that I read was "fema yat3ada el7arof" which means "Beyond the letter".thinking about changing scriptures not only create anger as you already know but also makes us get stuck in a none ending words-game.Let's use our energy to go beyond that!
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 09:37:08 AM
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Dears,
I honestly don't know. Both sides of the discussion do have a point. A friend just shared the following with me: "The scripture is in us, no matter what our tradition may be. Both can be respected."
Salam |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 09:53:25 AM
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I agree with Delara. It is not the scriptures that need changing; it is ourselves. I'm having a hard time explaining this but will do the best I can...
Whether the purpose is good or evil, people well-versed in the scriptures have no trouble finding words to support the cause. Sometimes the same words can be used to suit entirely different outcomes.
Take, for example, the story of Mary's pregnancy in the book of Matthew 1:18: "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privately."
Which means he wanted to spare them all the embarrassment of a public stoning and was minded to have her stoned to death privately among their family members.
Matthew 1:20: "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, fear not to take Mary to be your wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."
You can interpret this scripture two ways (maybe more):
1. Think of the ramifications if Joseph had ignored his dream and had not shown tolerance and mercy and love toward his wife.
2. Mary was an exception because she was a virgin and it was God's child she was carrying.
Later on, in the Book of John, you find another scripture that re-inforces the first interpretation:
John 8:3: And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when hey had set her in the midst, They said unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, and in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when the continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her."
But some would rather go directly to Deuteronomy 22:20 (If a man marries who he thinks is a virgin and it turns out that she isn't...) "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: The they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you."
The scriptures can stand as a record of who we are, what we are capable of (both good and evil), and who we want to be. It is up to us to become one with our fellow human beings.
Much love,
--Liz
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WoodDragon
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 11:39:01 AM
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| It seems to me that too often we forget that we are who we decide to be. While wisdom can be found in a variety of scriptures it is ultimately we who decide which ones we follow and in what manner we interpret them. Are we taking the road of compassion or are we traveling to the land of obedience? We make those decisions, if we can be detached enough, if we can view it all in stillness, if we are able to choose with purity of intention then perhaps we may make wise choices. Too often though, we fall into a desire for attachment, greed, control and fear. Therefore we must interpret scriptures with care, with Love with stillness and with compassion, for these are the tools for making non-dogmatic judgements. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 11:55:48 AM
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| Beautiful WoodDragon |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 12:27:40 PM
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Well said, WoodDragon!
Hi Ananda! I cracked open the Bible for the first time in 20 years, thanks to your post. It was really painful, but I did it! |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 12:55:19 PM
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| Sounds like a good thing |
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Delara
Lebanon
305 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 3:52:33 PM
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"The scriptures can stand as a record of who we are, what we are capable of (both good and evil), and who we want to be. It is up to us to become one with our fellow human beings."
Thank you WoodGragon,Scriptures are better interpreted when studied with Love and not out of fear.
We all desire unity and end of fights which I believe comes from a new system like AYP which integrates old wisdom & not by changing or tempering with the existing scriptures.
Great!I believe each one of us is saying his/her relative truth(w.r.t our experiences) which is nothing other than a refraction of the Ultimate truth.So All is good.
Salam everyone,I'll leaving this discussion now!
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 9:51:34 PM
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My hubby read my post and said my interpretation "put her away quietly" in Matthew was wrong. It's definitely one I've heard, that is, I wasn't making it up, but apparently it's not right. Here's a link to more on it: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_1:19
So you have the affects of translation, interpretation, re-interpretation, and mis-interpretation over the centuries. What a stew.  |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2011 : 11:22:18 PM
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George M Lamsa's translation directly from the Aramaic of the Pesh*tta:
Matthew 1:19
but Joseph her husband was a pious man, and did not wish to make it public, so he was thinking of divorcing her secretly. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2011 : 3:49:39 PM
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| "Even if knowledge of the scriptures is free from doubt and misunderstanding, it does not by itself confer experience" ~ Ramana Gita |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2011 : 7:29:04 PM
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George Lamsa is a scholar of translation. He translated his version of the bible from a handwritten copy in Aramaic, which has not been changed since when it was written. He says some of the original translations had mistakes because the translators were not as learned as they are today.
Example from George Lamsa's bible translated from Aramaic of the Pesh*tta:
Luke 18:25, and Matthew 19:24:
"It is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
This is usually translated "camel", not "rope". He shows the word "camel" and the word "rope" in handwritten Aramaic, and they look the same to me.
He shows examples of how a small dot can change a word, and the climate can cause dots to be transferred from one page to the next when pressed together. Also he shows how aramaic brush strokes can be ambiguous, especially in a language where words change meaning according to context. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2011 : 7:37:45 PM
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So what it comes down to in my opinion is this:
One should meditate, and find silence and your highest ideal inside. Then, as you read scriptures you will find layer after layer of meaning in them.
Too many people try to use the scriptures as truth, and expect them to transfer the meaning into us. They take the lowest level of meaning and try to use it as absolute truth. That's like a caveman using an Ipad as a paperweight. It works, but he's missing a lot. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2011 : 01:51:35 AM
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quote:
One should meditate, and find silence and your highest ideal inside. Then, as you read scriptures you will find layer after layer of meaning in them.
Too many people try to use the scriptures as truth, and expect them to transfer the meaning into us.
very intresting point Etherfish.... all scriptures were written based upon the experience of an enlightened sage ie the sage meditated,self realized then the scriptures were written as a guide...
whereas most people go the opposite way....they follow scriptures
"a la lettre" and neglect the core..they neglect doing the journey inside themselves....i should go to church ...i should fast because this is written somewhere.....
later this leads to divisions b/w humanity...you are hindu , i am muslim....and in extreme cases we get religious/economic/political wars that started from islamic invasions of india and spain...to crusaders in the middle east ...to catholics killing protestants in france...and all the many many religious wars we had in the 20th century....and we seem to have plenty of them in the 21st century too for example Shiaas muslims and Sunnis muslims fighting in Iraq and all the power struggle b/w countries that represent Shias (Iran) and countries that represent Sunnis (Saudi Arabia -Turkey)....
in short we create a big mess out of identifying ourselves with the scriptures and the religions we were born and raised in (conditionning)....whereas if we do the journey inside we will discover the Unity of it all |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2011 : 12:36:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Example from George Lamsa's bible translated from Aramaic of the Pesh*tta:
Luke 18:25, and Matthew 19:24:
"It is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
In Arabic, it's camel also... Just sharing! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2011 : 7:01:17 PM
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Probably because in Aramaic, rope and camel are the same word. You are supposed to decide which it is by context. Well, rope is like thread only larger, so that would be most logical.
Through the ages, stories have been passed down of a mountain pass that had a gate so small that a camel had to be unloaded, and walk on it's knees to get through it, and it was called "eye of the needle". But there is no evidence whatsoever to support that story, and it is ridiculous to think that a pass would be blocked for centuries and nobody would make it more convenient.
So it goes to show the lengths people will go to trying to make their scriptures absolute truth, when they should just chill and meditate. It teaches us to "let it go"! or be non-attached. And I'm sure non-dualists have their own "non-words" to add, like "there's nothing to let go of", and "who's letting go?", to which I have no answer because nobody is talking.  |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2011 : 04:51:31 AM
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2011 : 06:13:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
In Arabic, it's camel also... Just sharing!
Hi Ananda,
Thanks for that sharing that interesting tidbit! I have the impression somehow that Arabic is your first language and the Christian bible is your first scripture. Is that correct?
Wanting to know more about camel/rope in Arabic, I googled and found this:
"...Arabic cognates gamal "camel" and gummal "cable" -- the rope of a ship,the thick rope thereof, consisting of [a number of] ropes put together, the ropes of ships, put together so as to be like the waists of men [in thickness]." ...the Quran, Sura 7.38, "Until the cable [gummal] shall enter into the eye of the needle."
http://tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu...l-hawser.pdf |
Edited by - bewell on Oct 01 2011 06:35:57 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2011 : 12:54:03 PM
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quote:
the Quran, Sura 7.38, "Until the cable [gummal] shall enter into the eye of the needle."
Bewell ....actually it is sura 7 verse 40.... for information i am pasting the full verse below:
"To those who reject our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until a camel can go through the eye of a needle,such is our reward for those in sin" |
Edited by - maheswari on Oct 01 2011 2:20:27 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2011 : 12:55:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
[quote]
Thanks for that sharing that interesting tidbit! I have the impression somehow that Arabic is your first language and the Christian bible is your first scripture. Is that correct?
Yes, arabic is my first language and I was born a christian but now I don't know what the heck I am.
As for the rest, I think Maheswari took care of it better than I can.
Salam |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2011 : 1:17:36 PM
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quote:
Yes, arabic is my first language and I was born a christian but now I don't know what the heck I am.
"When the Buddha explains these things using such concepts and ideas, people should remember the unreality of all such concepts and ideas. They should recall that in teaching spiritual truths the Buddha always uses these concepts and ideas in the way that a raft is used to cross a river. Once the river has been crossed over, the raft is of no more use, and should be discarded. These arbitrary concepts and ideas about spiritual things need to be explained to us as we seek to attain Enlightenment. However, ultimately these arbitrary conceptions can be discarded." (Diamond Sutra) |
Edited by - maheswari on Oct 02 2011 1:40:35 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2011 : 1:41:58 PM
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| Similar thoughts concerning labels rushed my mind while writing that post... |
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AMEND THE SCRIPTURES
