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WhiteCrane38
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 11:23:26 AM
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I have noticed in the fabulous book Autobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda that he says on page 235 " Kriya Yoga has nothing in common with the unscientific breathing exercises taught by a number of misguided zealots, their attempts to forcibly hold the breath in the lungs is not only unnatural but decidedly unpleasant" Surely he isnt talking about Pranayama spinal breathing here, is he? Im sure the spinal breathing technique taught by Yogani among others is an ancient and excellent technique! Anyone have any thoughts on this.
Thanks. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 1:28:32 PM
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| My interpretation, fwiw (I'm not expert in this) is that he favors breath cessation with empty lungs. anyone else? |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 09 2006 1:28:46 PM |
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will.iam
23 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 6:22:18 PM
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Be sure youre reading his actual book. Its my understanding that it has been liberally edited since his passing.
First edition online for free here: http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/ |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 7:32:12 PM
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| I dont think AYP's pranayama falls into the "unscientific" method that Yogananda is talking about. Here the main goal is to breathe and trace the spinal nerve rather than being heroic and holding breath for long. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 8:36:35 PM
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Near,
I don't think that everything Parahamsa Yogananda said was perfect, and this may be an example of something which ia a little off the mark, or at least poorly written. Is he prejudiced against deliberate Kumbhak (holding of breath)? Or does he believe it is only forcing which is bad, and what does forcing mean, turning blue? Are all those who make a strong effort in holding breath 'misguided zealots?'. I certainly don't think so... Or had he just some particular misguided zealots in mind, who happened to be teaching a particular body of unscientific stuff? Is he happy to tar all with the same brushh?
Who knows? Who cares?
Don't worry about it, Near. Yogananda's pistols can be a little poorly aimed at times.  He teaches, in 'Man's Eternal Quest', that 'satan created sex'. Try bringing that idea healthily into the bedroom and with you, and healthily into your love-life.... Don't worry about any imperfections or oddities in Yogananda's writings.... Who said that he wrote perfectly? Did he?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 09 2006 9:03:03 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 8:36:36 PM
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Hi WhiteCrane,
It's obvious that Yogananda doesn't refer to spinal breathing when he talks about forcibly holding the breath in the lungs, because it doesn't involve holding the breath, as Near says. However the AYP practice kumbhaka is, as described in Lesson 91, and we wouldn't know if Yogananda refers to that or not, unless he specifies somewhere what he means by "the unscientific breathing exercises taught by a number of misguided zealots". |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 9:00:22 PM
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I think in AYP pranayama we dont hold the breath at all. David, correct me if I am wrong.
Yeah and I agree with you that yogananda need not be a perfect example for everything. Probably he is commenting at kumbhaka here. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 9:11:58 PM
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Near, in 'Yoni Mudra Kumbhaka'
http://www.aypsite.org/91.html
which is a variant of pranayama (or contains pranayama as an element -- depends on how you look at it), we do deliberately hold the breath. The breath is held at the end of the in-breath, when the lungs are fuller not emptier, in this version.
Like any other Yoga practice, deliberate Kumbhaka can be done well or badly; in a well-guided way, or a misguided way.
Whereas Yogani is not proposing intense (forceful) deliberate Kumbhaka, even people who do an intense deliberate Kumbhaka are not necessarily misguided; they may be strong Yogis pursuing strong results through methods that are working well for them, and they may be well-guided by their bhakti.
'Unnatural', by the way, is ultimately only a token of disapproval, in the guise of an objective comment. As for dangerousness, deliberate Kumbhaka is no more dangerous than running; both are dangerous only with a weak heart.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 09 2006 9:42:44 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 9:30:24 PM
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So what does Yogananda's pranayam method says is the right way to hold your breath?
In spinal Breathing there is no holding of breath.. in the rest(Yoni mudra and Jalandhara) Yogani cautions in his book that holding your breath with your lungs empty is not natural.. so we fill out lungs and then hold out breath.. except for uddiyana/nauli.. He has never recommended holding it more that your capacity.. he says after you breath out if you gasp for air then it was too long. So I dont think Yogani's method qualifies for "misguided zealots". |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 9:38:14 PM
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So what does Yogananda's pranayam method says is the right way to hold your breath?
Always hold your breath in a non-misguided, non-zealous, non-unscientific, non-forceful, non-unnatural, non-decidedly-unpleasant fashion.  LOL
I don't know. Any takers? Anyone go through all the Yogananda stuff?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 09 2006 9:46:48 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 08:04:45 AM
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In my previous post I had said .. quote:
In spinal Breathing there is no holding of breath..
I need to correct this statement.. In lesson#144.. Lite Chin Pump.. Yogani says the following...
quote:
This is a good time to mention that spinal breathing, and all
pranayama methods, are forms of kumbhaka in the sense that "restraint
of breath" (what pranayama means) places a slight challenge on the
oxygen supply in the body. This is what draws prana up into the
nervous system from its huge storehouse in the pelvic region.
So whether we are doing spinal breathing or kumbhaka, we are doing
restraint of breath. It is only a matter of degree.
Sorry Yogani. |
Edited by - Shanti on Apr 10 2006 08:12:48 AM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 10:18:32 AM
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Hi All:
Spinal breathing is the mainstay of the kriya tradition, of which Yogananda is an important a part -- the part that came west.
The various lines in kriya teach spinal breathing with different nuances, reflecting style and local culture.
Norman Paulsen, a direct disciple of Yogananda, teaches some deliberate breath suspension in his style of spinal breathing, though I do not believe it is involved in Yogananda's SRF style kriya. See Paulsen's book "Sacred Science" on this. Yoni mudra is a different story, which nearly always involves breath retention, and is part of the kriya lines also.
In AYP we don't use deliberate breath suspension in spinal breathing -- this is reinforced in the new Spinal Breathing book. But we do use it in other practices, as comfortable, like yoni mudra and chin pump, which is standard for these practices in the kriya lines and elsewhere.
So, except for removing the style and cultural add-ons, the AYP treatment of both spinal breathing pranayama and kumbhaka (breath suspension) is pretty standard. What is vastly different in AYP is the flexibility to independently integrate complementary practices (like spinal breathing and deep meditation) and self-pace as necessary. That is a big step forward, enabling highly efficient self-directed practice instead of having to run to "the guru" for every little thing, and then end up in trouble anyway due to the absence of ability to engage in self-pacing on the fly as needed.
With self-pacing, it becomes clear that slow deep breathing and kumbhaka are simply variations on the same principle of restraint of breath, and that we can regulate the application of this principle up or down according to the results we are seeing from our practice -- cause and effect. In this way we can maintain good progress with comfort and safety.
It should also be mentioned that AYP adds back some things that were down-played or removed from many of the teachings that came west from India in the last century. Kechari mudra is one example. A clear presentation of tantric sexual principles is another. Things like these were generally regarded to be "too much" for westerners at the time, and maybe for easterners too. Probably right. But times have changed, yes?
Make no mistake about it, we are standing on the shoulders of giants like Yogananda as we forge ahead into the 21st century. Without them, where would we be? If our successors can benefit half as much from our practical application of the principles of human spiritual transformation, then we will have done our job.
The guru is in you.
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 10:09:49 PM
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Hi Yogani and others,
I was doing pranayama by holding breath. I probably misread it from AYP site and was doing like that. I read somewhere about the 1:4:2 ratio for inhale:hold:exhale times. I roughly follow that.
Is it ok to continue like that? I have been doing that way for the past few months.
-Near |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 10:27:48 PM
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| I believe that it has been clearly expressed that holding the breath during pranayama is fine if done gently and without strain. I and several others here who are experienced in pranayama share the opinion however that doing strict timings can do more harm than good and that it is better to listen to your body's inner voice as to the duration of the breath. There are no prizes awarded for holding your breath longer than a certain duration. What I would suggest is to feel as if the lungs are like a sponge drinking up the energy from the air. At a certain point you will feel that the sponge is saturated and at that point slowly and gently release the breath to begin the next cycle with all flow being smooth and delicious rather than an effort of will. Pranayama should never feel mechanical and I beleive that timings can tend to encourage that mechanical aspect and that emphasis should be more on the *experience* rather than than an abstract pattern. |
Edited by - Victor on Apr 10 2006 10:30:11 PM |
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yogani
USA
5241 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 11:40:52 PM
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Hi Near:
No, deliberate suspension is not part of AYP spinal breathing. It can happen naturally, and then we just favor the procedure of our spinal breathing practice when we notice.
This is not to say deliberate breath suspension is taboo in spinal breathing. It just makes self-pacing more complicated for beginning and intermediate practice, and is not recommended for that reason. In fact, it is not necessary to ever use it to achieve the desired result, because there is plenty of kumbhaka happening in a full scope AYP routine already -- more than most of us need, actually, so it is not a matter of more, but less. Less is more once ecstatic conductivity gets going. And before then we don't want to be forcing it too much.
I agree with what Victor says about it -- keep it as easy and natural as possible. That is the ideal guideline.
The guru is in you.
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