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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 08:15:29 AM
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Well said Karl.
I wonder if an enlightened person might retain some of the attributes of his false self for reasons we don't understand. In other words, it is not necessary to melt the jewelry down to recognize that it is gold.
Let's say a person bought a car to impress the women, then became enlightened. He may still drive the same car, just because it's a good car.
Meanwhile, people might judge him saying "How could he be enlightened if he still tries to impress the ladies."
Those people would be more impressed if he sold the fancy car and bought something more sensible and monk-like. But that would be sort of an un-enlightened thing to do; trying to create this enlightened image! |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 08:17:36 AM
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STORY: What is the difference?
"A king was very much impressed by the simple and innocent life of a monk.
But the king was a very calculating man -- he first inquired about his character: "Is there any loophole in his life?" His detectives informed him that "this man has no dark spots in his life, he is absolutely pure, simple. He really is a great saint". When the king was totally convinced logically -- he went to the man, accepted him as his master, touched his feet and said, "Sir, I invite you to come to my palace and live there. Why live here?"
Deep down, although he was inviting the saint, he was expecting that the saint would refuse, that he would say, "No, I am a simple man. How can I live in the palace?" The complexity of human mind: he was inviting him, he was expecting that if the invitation were accepted he would be greatly joyous, and still there was an undercurrent: that the saint, if he were truly a saint, would refuse and say, "No, I am a simple man, I will live under the tree -- this is my simple life. I have left all the world, I have renounced the world, I cannot come back to it."
But the saint was really a saint. He said, "Okay. So where is the vehicle? Bring your chariot and I will come to the palace." He said, "Of course, when one comes to the palace one has to come in style. Bring the chariot!"
The king was very much shocked: "This man seems to be a cheat, a fraud. It seems that he was pretending all this simplicity just to catch hold of me." But now it was too late; he had invited him and he could not go back on his own word. Being a man of his word -- a samurai, a warrior, a great king -- he said, "Okay, now I am caught. This man is not worth anything -- he did not even refuse once. He should have refused!"
He had to bring the chariot, but he was no longer happy, he was not joyous. But the saint was very happy! He sat in the chariot like a king, and the king sat in the chariot very sad, looking a little silly. And people were watching in the streets: "What is happening? The naked fakir...!" And he was really sitting like an emperor, and the king was looking very poor compared to this man. And he was so joyous, so bouncing with ecstasy! And the more ecstatic he was, the more sad the king became: "Now, how to get rid of this man? I have become caught in his net on my own. All those detectives and spies are fools -- they could not see that this man has a plan." As if he was sitting under that tree for years so that the king would become impressed! All these ideas came into the head of the king.
The king had arranged the best room for the saint, if he would come. But he did not believe that he would ever come. You see the split of the human mind: you go on doing one thing, you go on expecting something else.
The king had arranged the best room. The saint reached the room -- he had been sitting under the tree for years -- and he said, "Bring this, bring that. If you have to live in the palace you have to live like a king!"
The king was getting more and more puzzled. Of course, he had invited him so whatsoever he asked for was brought. But it was heavy on the heart of the king, it was becoming heavier every day, because the saint started living like a king -- in fact, better than the king, because the king had his own worries and the saint had none. He would sleep in the day, in the night. He would enjoy the garden and the swimming pool and he would rest and rest. And the king thought, "This man is a parasite!"
One day it was unbearable. He said to the saint.... The saint had gone into the garden for a morning walk, and the king also came and he said, "I want to say something to you."
The saint said, "Yes, I know. You wanted to say it even before I left my tree. You wanted to say it when I accepted your invitation. Why did you wait so long? You are unnecessarily suffering. I can see you have become sad. You don't come to me anymore. You don't ask the great metaphysical, religious questions that you used to ask me when I used to live under the tree. I know -- but why did you waste six months? That I can't see. You should have asked immediately, and things would have been settled then and there. I know what you want to ask, but ask!"
The king said, "I want to ask only one thing. Now what is the difference between me and you? You are living more luxuriously than I am! And I have to work and I have to worry and I have to carry all kinds of responsibilities, and you have no work, no worry, no responsibility. I am feeling jealous of you! And I have certainly stopped coming to you, because I don't think there is any difference between me and you. I live in possessions, but you live in more possessions than I. Every day you demand, 'Bring the golden chariot! I want to go for a walk in the country. Bring this and bring that!' And you are eating delicious food. And now you have stopped being naked, you are using the best clothes possible. Then what is the difference between me and you?"
The saint laughed and he said, "The question is such that I can answer it only if you come with me. Let us go outside the capital."
The king followed. They crossed the river and they continued. The king asked again and again, "Now what is the point of going on any further? Why not answer now?"
The saint said, "Wait a little. I am in search of the right spot where to answer."
Then they came to the very boundary of his kingdom, and the king said, "Now it is time, this is the very boundary."
The saint said, "That's what I have been searching for. Now I am not going back. Are you coming with me or are you going back?"
The king said, "How can I come with you? I have my kingdom, my possessions, my wives, my children -- how can I come with you?"
And the saint said, "Now you see the difference? But I am going and I will not look back even once. I was in the palace, I lived with all kinds of possessions, but I was not possessive. You are possessive. That is the difference. I am going."
He undressed, became naked, gave the dress to the king, and said, "Keep your clothes and be happy again."
Now the king realized that he had been foolish: this man was rare, a rare gem. He fell at his feet and he said, "Don't go. Come back. I have not understood you yet. Today I have seen the difference. Yes, that is true sainthood."
The saint said, "I can come back, but remember, you will become sad again. For me there is no difference whether to go this side or that side, but you will become sad again. Now, let me make you happy. I am not coming, I am going."
The more the saint insisted on going, the more the king insisted on him coming back. But the saint said, "Once is enough. I have seen you are a stupid person. I can come, but the moment I say 'I can come,' I can see in your eyes the old ideas coming back: 'Maybe he is cheating me again. Maybe this is just an empty gesture, giving me the clothes and saying that he is going, so that I become impressed again.' If I come you will be miserable again, and I don't want to make you miserable."
Remember the difference: the difference is not in possessions, the difference is in possessiveness. A simple person is not one who possesses nothing, a simple person is one who has no possessiveness, who never looks back.
This simplicity cannot be practiced, this simplicity can come only as a consequence of innocence. Otherwise, on the one hand you will practice, and from some other corner of your being.... you will become more and more complex in this way, more and more cunning and calculating in this way; more disciplined, more with a character which people respect and honor. If you want to enjoy your ego, the best way is to be a holy man. But if you really want to celebrate existence, the best way is to be absolutely ordinary, utterly ordinary, and live the ordinary life with no pretensions."
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 09:07:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I wonder if an enlightened person might retain some of the attributes of his false self for reasons we don't understand.
your looking at the wrong end of a telescope.
It's not the guru that is enlightened.
Like the Sun casting a shadows on the ground and thinking it is one of the Shadows. A shadow can only reveal something about the nature of the Sun,. The shadows only appear when the Sun shines. Without the Sun there are no shadows. The size and shape of the shadows hold no clues, they are transient and ephemeral . The Sun has only to recognise that by its light the shadows appear.
That question can only be answered if you still think you are a shadow. Once you realise you are the Sun it ceases to have any meaning. |
Edited by - karl on Sep 02 2011 09:16:11 AM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 10:23:02 AM
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Yes Agreed. It is enlightenment awakening to itself rather than individuals getting enlightened. Or in other words as Yogani explains, it is the divinity flowing through us freely (through our actions and thoughts) when all our obstructions are resolved.
I can understand the part where people misunderstand an enlightened person (that he's still riding an expensive Car to impress girls). What I don't understand is the enlightened person to be still having a fear of heights or fear of groups (like the introvert case) etc...
I think it is okay to still wear expensive outwear, try to earn more money etc... as long as he doesn't have any attachment to it or doesn't undergo internal suffering when he doesn't get what he wants.
But shouldn't the process of "Removing the inner obstructions" clear out any fears, worries etc...?
Below is the interview link where he said that he's still an introvert (There are 10 parts to it. Not sure which part it is)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dULlsNOlTqY
- Near |
Edited by - nearoanoke on Sep 02 2011 10:24:15 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 12:06:48 PM
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Again you are mistaking the enlightened person as someone separate. In a world where you believe yourself as separate and even then the question still cannot be answered.
You see a Guru as a man, doing things you recognise because that is your perception. You ascribe your values to that person like a reflection in a mirror.
It is you who creates the image of the Guru because you do not realise your true nature. Adyashanti stands out because he said he is still introvert. You can choose to use that information to aid your own understanding or ignore it.
Ask yourself who is the I that needs thiat information, go to the heart of it and discover your true nature. It does not matter what the Guru says or does, he is a guide only, a signpost. You could watch a film and get a pointer, it then is your Guru. Ask the film if it retains it's character and you will find it is just a film that you have imposed your own view point on. Others may see it differently. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 1:32:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nearoanoke
What I don't understand is the enlightened person to be still having a fear of heights or fear of groups (like the introvert case) etc...
I love heights and i love diving, i love groups and being alone, i am both extrovert and introvert.
Does that make me enlightened?
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 1:59:24 PM
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nice story manigma ...you wrote it right?...i am impressed
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 2:05:47 PM
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quote:
I love heights and i love diving, i love groups and being alone, i am both extrovert and introvert.
Does that make me enlightened?
.....
do you exist in the first place? |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 2:31:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
I love heights and i love diving, i love groups and being alone, i am both extrovert and introvert.
Does that make me enlightened?
.....
do you exist in the first place?
Oh no, its some ghost writing these posts?
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 2:31:27 PM
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Ramana Maharshi character's defects
a disaffected devote wrote a small book about Bhagavan in the 1930's in which he gave a list of what he said were Bhagavan's character defects
when Bhagavan read this portion of the book,he laughed and said "why didnt he come to me before writing all this?i could have told him about many more of my defects ,things which i alone know"
At the end of the book there was a note fron the author which said:"i could tell many other stories about Bhagavan's bad character,but unfortunately i dont have enough money to print them all"
when Bhagavan read this he laughed again and remarked "why didnt he come to us if he was short of money?we could have given him a donation"(Living by the words of Bhagavan/David Godman) |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 2:35:15 PM
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Casper ...is it you?
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Edited by - maheswari on Sep 02 2011 2:41:50 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2011 : 01:40:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
Casper ...is it you?
No, he is my cousin brother.
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_Yogi_
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2012 : 02:07:42 AM
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| Ego doesnt get destroyed it is just seen as an illusion. Ego is a prison built out of fear to give the illusion of comfort. An analogy for ego could be a jail cell of solitary confinement. In it it not that great but at least you are safe and comfortable in there closed off from all the other bad guys. But then one day you realize that the door has been unlocked this whole time and your safety has been an illusion and you can simply leave this prison. After leaving its not like you go back and tear it down, it is still there. Basically after seeing the ego is an illusion it doesnt disappear it is still there only now you are not fooled by illusion. |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2012 : 09:02:49 AM
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Hi Near
My two cents on this -
I was just wondering - did Adya say he feels uncomfortable in social situations, or did he just say he is an introvert? The two are quite apart, so forgive me if this on the wrong track but:
It seems you define being an introvert means being uncomfortable in social situations.
This is not in my view an accurate definition, and I would guess its not what adya meant.
I am an introvert, I'm not at all uncomfortable in social situations. I'm not shy in the slightest, in fact, my job is an executive management/sales job where I'm brokering deals, building relationships with people, managing a team etc - highly extroverted and social activity. And I love this job and am good at it (i hope).
In fact, one result of spiritual practice for me has been that whatever situation arises in my life, I'm almost always comfortable with it.
But I am most definitely an introvert. It is simply my preference to be alone. If I can choose company, or choose being alone, 3 out of 5 times I choose alone. Not because I dislike anything about being in social situations, or people, I love people, but I simply love more long hours spent whiling away time by myself, nothing makes me more joyful.
Another hallmark of introvert is to prefer one-on-one situations, rather than large groups. Again, I love to be just me and my girlfriend, or me and my brother, or me and my mum, or me and my best friend. I find the closeness and openness in this situation deeply fulfilling, whereas large social gatherings not so much.
Eckhart Tolle also talks about how he loves to enjoy time alone, being nothing and nobody. He always said it was his preference to live like a hermit, but live just presented him with something else, a teaching opportunity. I find when I'm alone, I'm nothing and nobody to the fullest extent, and this is blissful for me.
You will not find any enlightened teachers (that I'm aware of) who have said that all preference is completely wiped out.
You simply lose attachment to those preferences.
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Enlightenment and Conditioning
